LumRaiderFan

[quote name="desethion" post="928625" timestamp="1291817281"] that was one of the most boring games i have ever seen. lumberton coach played stall ball and just didnt want to get blown out type of game plan. i mean it gives them hope and might be brillant on his part. some times you just know that the matchup arent in your favor [/quote] Hey, you do what you gotta do.  So far the Lady Raiders have beat Westbrook, lost by 1 to Jasper, and came up with a game plan last night to at least stay in the game.  It will probably be a tough year but they are a young team and have all stepped up and played well together.

[quote name="rip2506" post="925817" timestamp="1291482218"] I was in the local Academy the other day when a gentleman told me he could routinely hit targets out to 1600yds back in his military days.  My comfort zone is 200yds and my best shot was a lizard broadside off a building at 15 paces with my daisy! :D  Double lung and did not have to track him! Nothing beats shooting them (deer) with a bow right under you though. Speaking of has anyone else seen the new Tred Barta on Versus.. Dude kills a 4pt  Texas buck at 28yds. Long Bow..  out of a wheel chair.  Tred's arrogant at times but I love that dude! That was a trophy! [/quote] Tred is the man...just listen to his theme song! 8) It is amazing the animals he has taken with a longbow...and even after he's disabled and in a wheelchair...he still gets it done...gotta love it!  He is the man!

Prayers to the Sanchez family from Lumberton.

[quote name="643" post="916334" timestamp="1290431533"] I know first hand what goes in and out of that shop being that he's my Bro, your correct on what your saying >no dought< but when looking at the whole picure its for the best. One thing my Bro will tell you is he's seeing more and bigger deer come in this yr than in the past, last yr he was down on his E Texas bucks because of it being the first yr for the ARs. Hopefully in the future TPW will do something to adress the issues and they VERY WELL know the problem. Yrs back when we were a 1 buck county an ex sports writer for the paper I hunt with called Clayton Wolf in Jasper and voiced his concern on this very issue, the response was "[b]sometimes you have to do what you have to do[/b]".... [/quote] I hope TP&W can figure out a way to include cull management in their plan because what your buddy was saying is correct ...it's gonna happen anyway.  I would just hope we can come to a legal solution. I have a deer that I have seen this year that needs to be taken...he is probably 4.5 to 5.5 years old (not an expert at live aging...best guess) roman nose, gray face , pot belly and huge body and I'm not sure he's 13.  Heavy,heavy horns with stickers all over...8 point with crab claws on end of main beams.  Definitely needs to be taken out...I'd love to take him cause he'd be a great bow kill...but I'm just not sure.  I would just like to see an option for this type of deer...every club/landowner has them.

[quote name="643" post="915387" timestamp="1290341780"] [quote author=643 link=topic=61122.msg908529#msg908529 date=1289737249] [quote author=tvc184 link=topic=61122.msg908518#msg908518 date=1289723743] Yep. Wait a couple of more years and watch the results. [/quote]Or you can go to your local Taxidermist and see the results so far>>OUTSTANDING... [/quote]LumRaiderFan there is a Taxidermist in Lumberton, go see what kind of bucks are comming in, you mite be amazed..... [/quote] Moye's has been mounting good bucks for years from East Texas...even before the 13" rule.  Good bucks didn't just start showing up. I'll stand by my point...allow clubs/landowners to take out inferior deer that degrade the herd.  It's a management tool that has been used and proven...although not anymore in 113 counties...and it works.

[b]After reading a few more threads on a bowhunter's forum, I have come to the conclusion that there could be exemptions to the AR's like if a biologist or game warden ages the deer at 4.5 year old or older or if maybe it could be that the deer is 150 pounds or more, then the AR's do not apply. If such a move was made however, I think the AR's should be very strictly enforced with no slack given and very heavy fines issued. If a hunter is going to make the call that a deer is only 12" wide but is obvious a mature deer then he had better be able to back it up or pay dearly. [/b] I can agree with this...Allow an exemption for a cull buck to be taken.  When you take an inferior deer, you improve the herd, If a game warden makes the call that you took a young healthy buck that should not have been taken...you should be fined.

[quote name="tvc184" post="912096" timestamp="1290094195"] Like the other areas that have had AR's in place for a few years, the east Texas hunters will be drug along kicking and screaming. Look at any of the hunting forums from the people that hunt in those areas and ask them if they wish to get away from AR's. The results outstripped their anger at the government telling them what to do. Many of the ones that complained the loudest are now their biggest proponents. [/quote] For every one you find that likes the restriction, I can find 3 that don't like it.  I'll keep calling Austin and lobbying for the ability to kill cull bucks in East Texas where I hunt and you keep applauding the restrictions while hunting in a county that more than likely doesn't apply them. I guess I have more condidence in the ability of East Texas landowners/clubs to manage in a responsible manner than some!

[quote name="bullets13" post="911519" timestamp="1290021629"] if you let private land owners and leasers start defining what a "cull" is on their property, we'll start seeing people "cull" 1 1/2 year old 4 points again. [/quote] Over half the counties in Texas do just fine without restrictions.  How do you explain that?  If I applied your logic the bloodthirsty hunting masses would kill everything in sight unless restrained by the antler restrictions.

[quote name="westend1" post="911414" timestamp="1290012047"] [quote author=LumRaiderFan link=topic=61122.msg911350#msg911350 date=1290007470] [quote author=westend1 link=topic=61122.msg911336#msg911336 date=1290006381] [quote author=LumRaiderFan link=topic=61122.msg911331#msg911331 date=1290005913] [quote author=tvc184 link=topic=61122.msg911304#msg911304 date=1290004071] Then why do all of the AR counties all show a fairly quick improvement in their deer herds. It would be folly to ignore the results. Like it or not, this program works (and again, not a perfect solution). We will all benefit from it and soon. [/quote] I don't agree that you do see a fairly quick improvement in the herd.  Big bucks have been killed in..for example Sabine county for many years.  The antler restrictions did not cause this.  Lots of good clubs have managed there for years..that's the difference. Do this...pick up the phone and call TP &W and tell them you have several cull bucks < 13" on you property.  Ask them what are your management options.  I have called and they will agree there needs to be an option to take inferior bucks but right now there isn't. Give land owners/managers a [b]cull option[/b]...that's my simple point! ...one inferior buck that walks this year can lead to many in five years. It would be folly to ignore that point! [/quote] So, how are you going to define "cull"?    There is already a provision for non-forking horns.  What else do you want to put in the law? [/quote] Don't want anything else in the law...don't really want this one without cull exceptions.  Successfull clubs and landowners have managed their herd without interference very well because they have a vested interest in improving the deer quality whether it's for bigger bucks for members or more cash per deer for the landowner.  Keep the restriction for public land...fine by me...just let private landowners/clubs manage their herd. [/quote] You were the one that mentioned a "cull" option.  I just wondered what you meant.    Some people think a 2 year old 6 point is a cull.   Some people think deer that have larger horns on one side than the other are culls.    A "cull" exception, without a definition is pretty useless. [/quote] Let the club/landowner define cull.  Some clubs have experienced hunters that can age a deer on the hoof and then determine if he scores well enough for that age.  Others may apply an minimum point count and some may say anything with less than one brow tine goes. Let the private landowner/leasee define their version of cull.  That method has worked well for a long time without having a "defined " cull law in place. TVC had a picture that was a 120" + deer that he "culled" from the herd because of the great quality area he hunts in.  One man's cull could be anothers trophy. We don't need a cull law...there is no one size fits all that will work.

[quote name="westend1" post="911336" timestamp="1290006381"] [quote author=LumRaiderFan link=topic=61122.msg911331#msg911331 date=1290005913] [quote author=tvc184 link=topic=61122.msg911304#msg911304 date=1290004071] Then why do all of the AR counties all show a fairly quick improvement in their deer herds. It would be folly to ignore the results. Like it or not, this program works (and again, not a perfect solution). We will all benefit from it and soon. [/quote] I don't agree that you do see a fairly quick improvement in the herd.  Big bucks have been killed in..for example Sabine county for many years.  The antler restrictions did not cause this.  Lots of good clubs have managed there for years..that's the difference. Do this...pick up the phone and call TP &W and tell them you have several cull bucks < 13" on you property.  Ask them what are your management options.  I have called and they will agree there needs to be an option to take inferior bucks but right now there isn't. Give land owners/managers a cull option...that's my simple point! ...one inferior buck that walks this year can lead to many in five years. It would be folly to ignore that point! [/quote] So, how are you going to define "cull"?    There is already a provision for non-forking horns.  What else do you want to put in the law? [/quote] Don't want anything else in the law...don't really want this one without cull exceptions.  Successfull clubs and landowners have managed their herd without interference very well because they have a vested interest in improving the deer quality whether it's for bigger bucks for members or more cash per deer for the landowner.  Keep the restriction for public land...fine by me...just let private landowners/clubs manage their herd.

[quote name="tvc184" post="911304" timestamp="1290004071"] Then why do all of the AR counties all show a fairly quick improvement in their deer herds. It would be folly to ignore the results. Like it or not, this program works (and again, not a perfect solution). We will all benefit from it and soon. [/quote] I don't agree that you do see a fairly quick improvement in the herd.  Big bucks have been killed in..for example Sabine county for many years.  The antler restrictions did not cause this.  Lots of good clubs have managed there for years..that's the difference. Do this...pick up the phone and call TP &W and tell them you have several cull bucks < 13" on you property.  Ask them what are your management options.  I have called and they will agree there needs to be an option to take inferior bucks but right now there isn't. Give land owners/managers a cull option...that's my simple point! ...one inferior buck that walks this year can lead to many in five years. It would be folly to ignore that point!

[quote name="tvc184" post="911240" timestamp="1289984611"] [quote author=LumRaiderFan link=topic=61122.msg911139#msg911139 date=1289965871] If there are several small acreage landowners [size=11pt][b]that are like minded in their management aproach[/b][/size], like in our area then you can manage several small tracts like a large tract if allowed. Taking inferior deer will improve the herd...that is a fact.  It's a practice that [size=11pt][b]all good leases follow[/b][/size]. [size=11pt][b]The quality of the deer in south Texas is not because they applied the 13" rule in years past.[/b][/size]  I'm not saying it didn't help but the biggest impact is allowing the good quality deer to mature and removing the culls. And even if a deer did manage to reach 13" after 3 1/2 or 4 1/2 years, its not the type of deer I would want in the gene pool.  I'm sure some oppose the rule because they want to kill anything with horns, but that's not my reasons. [/quote] IF they are like minded and IF they were all good leases. Well if they were all like minded, we wouldn't need the new rules. South Texas never needed a 13" rule because they had enough sense to manage their deer herd by the complete package and not some "one rule fits all". The problem is, the state needs to do something and the 13" rule is simply the easiest to do. I have no disagreement at all that the 13" rule is not a great management plan by itself. I don't think anyone including anyone from the state will claim that either. Something had to be done though and it had to be understood and implimented by the masses, not like minded managers. It is put in place for the lowest common denominator and in deer hunting, that can be fairly low. It works and has already been proven to work. Is it the best plan? Not by a long sight. Is it one that works and will improve the herd? You betcha. [/quote] So I stand by my original thought...let the private landowners and lease-holders manage their herd by being able to take culls that may be < 13" I don't agree that 113 counties need to be managed by a committee in Austin while the rest of the 254 counties are smart enough to manage themselves.  If the 13" restriction with no means to take cull bucks is the way to go...pass it in all counties.  I don't think it is! One more thought...If you think for one second any rule passed will keep the lowest denominator in check, think again.

If there are several small acreage landowners that are like minded in their management aproach, like in our area then you can manage several small tracts like a large tract if allowed. Taking inferior deer will improve the herd...that is a fact.  It's a practice that all good leases follow. The quality of the deer in south Texas is not because they applied the 13" rule in years past.  I'm not saying it didn't help but the biggest impact is allowing the good quality deer to mature and removing the culls. And even if a deer did manage to reach 13" after 3 1/2 or 4 1/2 years, its not the type of deer I would want in the gene pool.  I'm sure some oppose the rule because they want to kill anything with horns, but that's not my reasons.

Well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  I don't like it...I'll do it because its law, but I don't like having to let low quality bucks walk that need to be culled.  Small acreage landowners have no choice...can't get permits to take cull bucks in restricted counties.

[quote name="Bucof2010" post="910882" timestamp="1289945445"] A lot of the leases have been doing the same thing it has nothing to do with public or private land. [/quote] Leases are doing the same thing because they have to by law if they fall under the antler restrictions.  A well managed lease is not going to make a blanket rule of 13" to improve the herd.  A lot of factors determine which deer are going to be taken out as "cull" deer.  Antler restrictions don't let good leases manage as well as they could. I agree with the rule for public hunting land...it forces folks to let smaller bucks walk that would normally shoot anything with horns.

[quote name="tvc184" post="910801" timestamp="1289938901"] [quote author=LumRaiderFan link=topic=61122.msg910497#msg910497 date=1289918338] I agree...if a hunting club or a private landowner wants to take out an inferior deer to improve the herd, they should be able to.  Right now they have no choice but to let poor quality deer walk (that may never reach 13") I see the thought process behind the law but it handcuffs clubs and landowners that are managing for quality deer,. [/quote] Except that the hunting club or private land owner do not own the deer. They belong to the people of the state of Texas even when they are crossing private property. There is very limited public hunting land in Texas. A large majority of the viable hunting land is on a hunting club or private property. Even in areas of public land, many of the deer that live there cross onto private or lease property. If there was such a law allowing the killing of less than the antler restrictions due to private property or a hunting lease, about 95% of the area now covered by the current restrictions would not even apply. It would be a meaningless law. Sorry, this law only applies to you poor folks that can't afford a hunting lease or have the money and simply can't find one in your area. As noted by Bullets, there is already a program in place for many hunting clubs through MLD. Look at it this way. Let's say that a guy hunts on public land in Texas. He is hunting in one of the national forests near a fence line that is on private property. A buck comes out but can't be taken by the public hunter even though he has his young son with him. Then they watch as the deer runs 50 yards and jumps over the fence and is immediately blasted by a hunter and his young son. The reason? The deer crossed the fence line onto "private" property. What is the guy on public property going to tell his son? Sorry but I couldn't afford $500 for a lease this year so the guy a few yards away can kill him but we can't. So it is the same deer in almost the exactly same location but one is on that magical private land or a lease. That is deer management? I don't think so. By the same reasoning, we could catch any fish without regard as far as size or bag limit if we were standing on a private dock. Never mind that the fish could swim a few feet and be where it could only be caught from public waters. Texas fish and game belong to the people of the state and one person has no more right to that game because it happens to cross onto or in front of private property. Let the deer grow up and the kids won't have to "settle" for that baby 4 point to get the "first deer". [/quote] That's my point...some deer will never grow up and will pass on poor genes for years.  A hunting club or private landowner should be able to take out cull bucks if needed IMO.  This rule was set up with unmanaged public land in mind (and yes there is a lot of public land...go check out a type 2 map book)where nobody has an a long term interest in improving the herd and anything with horns was taken out.  These magical lines between being able to take a cull buck and not being able to take him because of antler restrictions already exist because not all counties have antler restrictions.

[quote name="ST413" post="910389" timestamp="1289882660"] The idea of my pics wasn't to get someone to tell me yes that is a shooter or no it isn't.  It is to give an idea of how hard it is to tell for some people.  Yes,  I want to see a more mature herd.  I need to see these deer in the daylight before I get a idea whether I want to fire a shot or not.  The pics do show me some decent deer,  at least decent for what I have seen in SETX.  I have seen pictures of some real good deer around the area already this year.  However the same biologist that told me my wife's deer needed to be taken told me the area I am hunting is known for small horned for their age deer.  I won't shoot a 13"+ deer unless it is the one I am looking for.  However SETX is not like other areas.  A lot of the areas hunting are so thick you only get to see a deer briefly.  For hunters looking to "fill their freezer" or ones still looking for that first good buck,  that makes it awful hard to make the decision.  i am like others "fill the freezer" with does or a cull buck.  But my problem comes for those trying to get their young kids into hunting.   You get a kid out there and he sees one of these good bucks that isn't wide enough and tell him he can't shoot.  Good lesson for the future but hard lesson on an excited kid or maybe wife for that matter. Not too mention if they are in that position and hunting by themselves.  And I have stated previously  that,even though I don't know how you would do it,  [b]I would like to see an exception to the rule for deer with crazy horns that need to be taken out.[/b]  Irregular non typical racks.  I killed one a few years ago that I will try to post a pic of in the next few days. His genetics needed to be stopped. [/quote] I agree...if a hunting club or a private landowner wants to take out an inferior deer to improve the herd, they should be able to.  Right now they have no choice but to let poor quality deer walk (that may never reach 13") I see the thought process behind the law but it handcuffs clubs and landowners that are managing for quality deer,.

What a ridiculous thread...Both teams are 2 - 3 in district so I would say each has a lot more to worry about than band and fight song interference!  Congrats on your win dogs!

Great athlete and a truly fine young man!

In Lumberton, we all wear shoes that night! ;D

[quote name="Tim Riggins" post="835302" timestamp="1283214535"] [quote author=LumRaiderFan link=topic=72237.msg835121#msg835121 date=1283197861] Amazing...4 weeks ago we were destined to be the "cellar dwellers" of the district and now there's talk of us making the playoffs (which I believe we will) I love it!!! 8) [/quote] Actually, Vidor and Ozen were picked as cellar dwellers. [/quote] Check out the posts on thread "Pre-Spring 20-4A Rankings" 8)

Amazing...4 weeks ago we were destined to be the "cellar dwellers" of the district and now there's talk of us making the playoffs (which I believe we will) I love it!!! 8)

Couldn't be at the game...can anyone give a rundown on the scoring?

[quote name="AggiesAreWe" post="827397" timestamp="1282247895"] I have an autographed framed picture, autographed hat and baseball from Roger for sale. Best offer. [/quote] Maybe you can swap it for a Tiger woods putter! ;D

I vote we make it simple...no metal...no composite...Wood!