stevenash

[quote name="east texas bb" post="926764" timestamp="1291573317"] I have been watching your threads for awhile now without posting and have notcied that you do exactly what you have done in this thread.  Take a simple topic about who is better a playmaker or a spot up shooter and turned it in to the Celtics (greatest franchise ever) against me.  You are very good at twisting words.  Again, you should be a politician.  It looks like we are not going to agree on this topic, so lets let it go and agree to disagree and talk about something else later.  Have a good Sunday with the family to all. [/quote] And who, prey tell,other than Pierce is a shot generator extraodinaire?  No doubt in my mind JOrdan is the greatest ever.  I also know you have to have a good outside shooter to  compete in the league.  If you are particularly proficient at one aspect, such as shooting, chances are you are not particulary proficient at some other skill such as dribbling.  Say what you want, LeBron is, relatively speaking, a poor outside shooter but wonderful playmaker. You say I am stubborn or dont know the game?  translation- I have to be that way if I disagree with you.  And my belief about how this conversation began is your comment about the Bosha kid at HJ in another thread.  This thread began with  my question to Bluedove and you decided to enter the conversation.  Why not go back and see if that is the case or am I "just twisting words" again?  I would still like to know how such an average guard got on the All STar TEAM.  And you TELL ME  I avoid questions?  Very interesting.  REgarding the Celtics and their "three very good playmakers".  How do they compare to Miamis three very good playmakers.  Why is one team at 13-4 and the other slightly above 500?  ANd the baloney about putting Nate and Rondo on different teams is simply your opinion which is STILL just one opinion and possibly not as relevant as you would like to believe it is.  Gotta go- am pulling out my old videos and watch all of the great shots generated by Magic Johnson.  If your theory wasnt "bought" on the coaches board last year, why expect it to fly here?

[quote name="ballin4life" post="926720" timestamp="1291567714"] rondo did not play on the usa team, hes not better than nash, and is not a top 8 pg  in my opinion. hes surrounded by HOF'ers, is that his fault no but the stats dont always tell the whole story. [/quote] As stated earlier, take the stats of the starting AND backup point guards for the Heat and the Lakers.  Rondo outproduces the combined stats of either by a large margin.  So the HOFers theory does not work.  You dont make the ALL NBA FIRST DEFENSIVE TEAM and make the NBA ALL STAR TEAM by being less than a top 8 guard.  I still submit that the people making those decisions know a heck of a lot more about basketball than any of us do.  Its kind of like me saying that Apple Computer stock, which is trading around $318 per share is only worth $50 per share because that is what I think.  The market place knows quite a bit more than I do and has placed the appropriate value on the stock.   It might look a little silly for me to "declare" than LeBron or Kobe are not that good.

[quote name="Aces_Full" post="926688" timestamp="1291564040"] When you all are talking about "spot up" shooters, these are the same guys that coaches call plays for, run off multiple screens, bust zones, and set up inbounds plays for correct?  There are many ways to get open and be effective, besides being able to "create your own shot", or better said taking someone off the dribble.  Labeling some players as just "spot up" shooters is devaluing what they can do.  JJ Reddick did a heck of a lot more at Duke than just stand in the corner and wait for one of his teammates to drive and kick.  [/quote] I salute you sir, for your common sense and logic.

I am going to guess that it is now time for the declining career vs upswing career strategy although Mario Chalmers is younger than Rondo.  If not, it will CERTAINLY be time for you to re-evaluate your outlook on basketball.

Careful sleepy.  You will now be labeled as bitter and/or arrogant.

I also failed to congratulate you on your unique ability to determine "arrogance and/or bitterness via a few brief exchanges on a basketball board with a total stranger.  Few have that much omniscience.

[quote name="east texas bb" post="926415" timestamp="1291514133"] ANd you didnt answer on my other question, you made the assumption because of lack of years that in the future Rondo will be MVP of the League.  I would love to hear that one. [/quote] A guard who is not in the top ten in the league DOES NOT, I R E P E A T  DOES NOT get selected to the NBA ALL STAR team or TEAM USA.  Hate to burst your bubble, but those making those selections forgot more about basketball than you will EVER know.  I made no assumption that Rondo will be a future MVP, you ASSUMED that I assumed. Boston has the resources to have secured the services of several top notch guards, among them Jason Kidd.  Again I will suggest that the coaching staff/management of the greatest professional basketball franchise in history probably has a SLIGHT edge over you in knowing who is best suited to occupy their point guard position. (even though I am quite confident you disagree on that point too)  It also was interesting how you stated you didnt want to discuss this anymore but posted three consecutive times.  I think a playmaker (as opposed to a shot generator) is very crucial to a team.  I also know that a playmaker is more effective if he has a legitimate shooting threat on his side and more likely to win a championship which seems to be the aim of every player/team.  Larry Bird is my favorite player of all time but I dont remember him doing much in the way of moves other than to shoot over  people or use a couple of well placed fakes.  Jordan, Kobe had/have all the moves.  But if thats all it takes, the Lakers wouldnt have had to purchase the appropriate support for Kobe >  How did Jordan do in Washington?  Could it be that support was lacking?

Prudhomme tourney MVP  Gus and Persohn all tourney

[quote name="LAZEEK" post="926013" timestamp="1291496994"] HJ plays the winner of Port Lavaca Calhoun and Rockport Fulton at 6:30!!!! [/quote] Playing Pt. Lavaca at 6:30.  No need to delete this one.

They will play Pt. Lavaca again in the final.

Will play Port Lavaca (whom they beat 43-41 in the opening round) in the final at 6:30 pm

[quote name="BADSANTA" post="925960" timestamp="1291494541"] Nash has had a great career and is one of the best passing and scoring guards ever. Only other point he compares to is Stockton. I agree that a spot up shooter is non existing with a  penetrating point. [/quote] And I am suggesting that a competent spot up shooter makes it much easier for the point to penetrate.

[quote name="east texas bb" post="925933" timestamp="1291492946"] ANd a spot up shooter cutting and moving is not creating their OWN shot.  They are using screens and the benifit of the defense helping on the playmakers to get his shot.  So there goes another arguement down.  Name the top 5 all-time guards.  I would bet you anything they could create their own shot. [/quote] Bob Cousy did very little creating and same goes for Magic Johnson, who was not a very good outside shooter anyway.  Believe  me, my feelings arent hurt.  I also dont remember John Havlicek making a lot of exciting moves either..I would further suggest that the top  5 guards are not the top 5 because of creating shotsand I would rather look at the top 5 teams than the top 5 guards.  When I referred to basketball knowledge, I was SARCASTICALLY referring to the point that you thought it was all right to make the NASH comparisons until I brought up some stats, at which time you SUDDENLY declared the comparisons unfair.  As for answering questions, I notice there has never been a response the ONE DIMENSIONAL POOR PASSING guard who leads the league in steals and assists, was in last years NBA All star Game and is a first team all NBA defender.   Permit me to suggest if you find fault with that logic that its NOT ME who NEEDS to reevaluate.  For the final time, my point is not that one is more important than the other.  My point is that it takes both to be successful and the Celtics ( I know, I know- these examples are prohibited) are a prime example of that.  Ray Allen and Allen Iverson came to the pros the same year.  Obviously, Allen Iverson was the better "creator".  I can PROMISE/GUARANTEE you that if the Celtics had acquired Iverson instead of Allen (or another creator vs a shooter) the results would not have been even close.  Cant wait to hear how this is disputed.  I will maintain (and you will NEVER alter my thought either with insults or unjustified condescension)that the best and most successful teams employ a blend of the two qualities. Even the Heat, who is overflowing with creators, know that they need the Eddie Houses and Mike Millers of this world to compete.  And finally, for you to suggest that Mr. Rondo is one dimensional and near average fails to give you credibility with anyone but yourself.  By the way, running full speed to the three point line and pulling up(perfectly balanced, I might add) on that dead run to drain a three is very much a created shot and it is one that Mr. Allen is 1000 times better at than LeBron Or Kobe.  I would further suggest to you that Mr. Rondo can get to the basket most anytime he wants to.  And only a fool flips up a reverse layp against an opponent a foot taller when the best shooter in the league is poised to make three instead of two from one of his "average" passes.  In earlier years, I still remember the Celtics Lakers rivalries.  Jerry West and Elgin Baylor were far superior shot creators but they usually finished second to Boston.

[quote name="Scalabrine" post="925890" timestamp="1291488659"] Oh I get it now Nash, that's whyyy Miami signed (Spot up Shooter) Mike Miller?? Because every teams needs 1 to just stand in the corner. Just like Jordan had Kerr, Houston had Mario Elie, Boston has Ray, Everybody had Horry and Hj has Sutherland. [/quote] Thats what I believe but that is just my naive and uninformed thought. But I recently found out I dont know what I am talking about.  I am dumb enough to believe there is real value to those with the shooting skills.  I happen to think that Ray Allen has won a number of big games for the Celtics in recent years by virtue of his "spot up shots".  To my ignorant way of thinking, there is a need for both and they compliment each other quite well.  Heck, I even believe that if you have a Ray Allen , it makes the shot creation process quite a bit better for Paul Pierce.  Be forewarned, though, to embrace this theory is an illustration of ignorance.

Pardon me, sir, but unless you are Phil Jackson, I think I will just continue with my "outmoded" and "unelightened" outlook on the game.  I didnt understand the "rules" of our conversation at first, but I think I understand them now.  Am going to llist them, and feel free to correct me wherever I am wrong. 1.  An NBA All Star Point guard who is first team all defensive and playing in the NBA finals two of the last three years is, at best just average, one dimensional, and relatively speaking, not a very good passer.  2. When you suggest comparisons to  Steve Nash, that is" basketball knowledge" at its absolute finest.  However, if I respond with additional comparisons involving the same people, it is unfair to compare a career upswing with a career decline. (But, of course, the MVP comparison is a fair one for one guy in the league 15 years and another one for 4) 3.  Rondos shooting percentage is only good because he shoots a lot of layups.  Defenders encourage his outside shot by laying off of him by three to four feet and yet he shoots a lot of layups.  This cant be, because he is incapable of generating a shot.  (layups are shots in case you didnt know)  I guess all of his layups come from snowbirding.  Wouldnt you agree it takes an exceptional talent to score only on snowbirding and yet be at the top of the steals list and be an ALL NBA FIRST TEAM DEFENDER? 4.  I am not permitted to claim that a spot up shooter has a value to a team and a  place on most teams.  If I make any comment about that,  what I am really saying is that 5 spot up shooters can beat 5 shot creators. 5.  Trying to justify my claim by comparing the Celtics and Heat is a poor analogy (still struggling with fully accepting that "rule") 6.  If you make a statement about basketball, it is the ABSOLUTE gospel and cannot be questsioned.  WHen I make my statement, it is simply coming from a guy who "needs to re-evaluate this outlook" Now that I fully grasp the "rules", perhaps I can do a little better.  AS just an aside, inthe NCAA final last year, it didnt seem to me that Kyle Singler was much of a shot creator but he sure seemed to be pretty important to his team as in "no prayer for DUke to be there without him"

[quote name="jabu84" post="925739" timestamp="1291465479"] i would want somebody who can create their own shot.  All spot up shooters use movement to create space for their shot, so in a way you can say they create their own shot. [/quote]  I think you have a valid point there.  Never thought it about it that way.  In any case, for the Rondo detractors, here are the latest statistics (as per wikipdedia) on Nash and Rondo Points per game  Nash 20.3  Rondo 11.2 Free throw percentage  Nash 87%  Rondo 47% Rebounds per game  Rondo 4.8  Nash 2.5 Assists per game  Rondo 14.3  Nash 8.9 Steals Per Game  Rondo 2.5  Nash 1.0 Blocks per Game Rondo .25  Nash .09 Field Goal Percentage  Nash 50.3%  Rondo 50%

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="925518" timestamp="1291433953"] Give me a guard who can do all those things. I prefer to use someone like Isiah Thomas as an example. But Nash and Thomas were dangerous in their own right. Oh, I have an old high school teammate who led the nation in scoring one year.  A spot up shooter. His team sucked. [/quote] 2 points are 2 points, regardless of how they were attained.  Now the fact that his team sucked couldnt possibly have anything to do with the other 10 or 12 teammates, could it?  If he could have "shaked and baked" with the best of them instead of shooting well but all other circumstances were unchanged, would his team no longer have sucked?

[quote name="east texas bb" post="925401" timestamp="1291429933"] It seems you want to start arguments all the time.  The point value is the same on all the above. But just like the other thread you pick pieces of the thread that coincide with your arguments without answering the questions asked of you.  You try to turn peoples words around on them to fit your mindset.  You are the worst  I have seen on the board about this, it seems like you try to bait people into arguements just like this thread.  If you knew anything about me you would know I am the most fundamental purist of the game and love to see team play, but for some reason you want to compare the Celtics and Heat which no one has even mention.  I dont know you and would probably like you if we sat down and talked but you are skewed if you think a team of spot up shooters could beat a team of players who can create their own shot and shoot the spot up shots as well.   You try to make your comparison based on the Celtics and Heat which I dont know where that came from.  But your coparision is under false assumption because the Celtics are not ALL spot up shooters vs. the Heat who you claim are all shooters who create off the dribble.  I simple said that a spot up shooter is not as valuable as someone who can do both.  Debate this:  This is the greatest example I can give you, which player is better.  Rajon Rondo or Steve Nash.  One player is one dimensional and the other can get his team involved (hence create shots for himselfs and others and shoot the open shot).  If you say Rondo, you have completely lost it.  ANSWER THE QUESTION directly. AND ANSWER this, would you rather have a Spot up Shooter like Ray Allen or someone who can create his own shot and shots for others(they go hand in hand) and shoot the open shot as well.  Be honest and dont get off subject.   [/quote] Pardon me, sir but only YOU have DECLARED Rondo to be one dimensional.  He leads the league in steals and assists as well.  The fact that he is not a proficient shooter is ABSOLUTELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY NOT a reason to declare him as one dimensional.  It appears it is ok to compare Steve Nash to Rondo but not the Heat to the Celtics- Interesting-  My original premise, if you will recall is that a  spot up shooter has a value on the court and is very helpful to the one-on-one specialist.  I DID NOT (and you know this) declar the heat to be ALL shooters who create off the dribble.  I said there were three of them (more than on most teams) of all star callibre and to date it had NOT gotten the job done, thus concluding there is more to this game than one-on one efficiency.  I would take Rondo in a heartbeat.  If you think I have lost it, so be it.  I once again wish to remind you that I have one opinion and you have one.   Nothing more.  Nothing less.  If you think Rondo is one dimensional, I aint the only one who has "lost it".  Hope you saw the game last night.  He made quite a few passes that were quite a bit more than "average", as you say.  You  also now have added in another dimension:  First it was a shot creator and now it is a shot creator who can shoot the open shot as well.  Ray Allen is no shot creator but he is very valuable to the team.  They need what he has to offer MORE than they need another shot creator.  That, in my opinon is a FACT and I would ask you to dispute that.  If one develops some sort of point value for a steal, an assist, a rebound and a shooting percentage and combines the values, I want you to tell me how Rondo does NOT become an integral part of the conversation.  ONe more item regarding the "starting arguments accusation"- to whom was this thread addressed?

1.  What is the point value of a hard driving 360 reverse slam dunk after dribbling behind your back and through your legs and you left your defender flat footed and dumb founded? 2.  What is the point value of a spot up 15 foot jumper? 3..  How much energy was used in each of the above?

Hawks win 70-39

[quote name="PoppaBearstarr" post="924996" timestamp="1291399621"] wow.... [/quote] HJ 58 Luling 20

Beats Luling 58-20  in spite of very poor shooting from the field.  Guess they need more shot creators.

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="925069" timestamp="1291407046"] Senile old man. ILL agree with you and easttx.best of both worlds Rondo and Kobe. [/quote] Thank you.  My guess is that if Kobe had Rondo, he would enjoy his situation that much more

[quote name="sleepy" post="925018" timestamp="1291401763"] [quote author=east texas bb link=topic=76916.msg925002#msg925002 date=1291400737] Evidentally we have a lot of guys who were spot up shooters in HS.  No one is bursting my bubble on Rondo, I know basketball and I am not going to argue on this subject anymore.  It is stupid.  Rondo can not shoot, he is a very average passer, he may have alot of assists but that is his sole job and he is surrounded by All-Stars.  Makes for a great team, exectaly what the Celtics have.  Does not make him a good passer.  And I am sorry about saying Rondo couldnt  shoot, I forgot about layups.  Anyone that would argue that they would rather have someone who can only make shots created for them vs. someone that can create his own and make shots from others is not thinking straight. That is a simple statement and a simple answer.  1 player can do both the other player can sit in the corner and hope someone gets him a shot so he can shoot. The best players in the game could create their own shots.  Plain and simple.  I dont have to post youtube videos (of one clip which I didnt even take the time to watch).  It is just common sense. Good luck to the Bosha and HF players, wish them the best.  Have a great day.  Im through with this topic. [/quote] If you TRULY believe he is an average passer you have NO IDEA what is going on.  I don't care if it is his only job.........he is dang good at it. Again I will say this......if you cannot admit that Rajan Rondo is a great passer........you have no room even TALKING about basketball. [/quote] Sleepy- Its real simple.  There are some who believe that the answer to everything is how well you "shake and bake"  There are others who believe that the team concept is the better approach because it uses all of the skills in basketball as opposed to just the ones that cause the "oohs" and "ahs" from the crowd.

[quote name="east texas bb" post="925002" timestamp="1291400737"] Evidentally we have a lot of guys who were spot up shooters in HS.  No one is bursting my bubble on Rondo, I know basketball and I am not going to argue on this subject anymore.  It is stupid.  Rondo can not shoot, he is a very average passer, he may have alot of assists but that is his sole job and he is surrounded by All-Stars.  Makes for a great team, exectaly what the Celtics have.  Does not make him a good passer.  And I am sorry about saying Rondo couldnt  shoot, I forgot about layups.   Anyone that would argue that they would rather have someone who can only make shots created for them vs. someone that can create his own and make shots from others is not thinking straight. That is a simple statement and a simple answer.  1 player can do both the other player can sit in the corner and hope someone gets him a shot so he can shoot. The best players in the game could create their own shots.  Plain and simple.  I dont have to post youtube videos (of one clip which I didnt even take the time to watch).  It is just common sense. Good luck to the Bosha and HF players, wish them the best.  Have a great day.  Im through with this topic. [/quote]  If you are so confident about what you say, please help me recall how many great "created" shots were done by Magic Johnson.  And while you are at it, explain the record of the Heat this year.  And for the record, you possess NO exclusivity about basketball knowledge.  Rest assured.  Saying that Rondos sole job is to make assists demonstrates the depth of your knowledge.  As for the All stars surrounding him, you are then saying that since Derick Fisher is a better shooter, he is more valuable to the Lakers than Rondo is to the Celtics. Give me a freaking break.  Go to google and check out what some others think.  You wont find rondo rated anywhere less than 4th as a point guard.  And yes, he is the point guard who was first team all defense last year.  I guess those that voted him on that team don't "really know" basketball. The argument is NOT would you rather have spot up shooters or shot creators but rather some of each because they compliment each other very well.  Once again, Miami has plenty of creators but a record only slightly above 500.