stevenash

[quote name="Bucof2010" post="815086" timestamp="1277761114"] H.S practice especially jv and varsity shouldn't be a whole lot of skills practice it should be practicing plays and defenses skiLls come from the park and driveway [/quote].  What is done in practice is a coaches decision but u can rest assured that what ever is done in practice will definitely improve skills

[quote name="knows2much" post="815066" timestamp="1277755969"] If not making the playoffs is not that big a deal then what does that say about schools consistently NOT making the playoffs?  I think it's a pretty big deal.  Yeah I know that the measure of success is different for everybody but that is the goal of just about every team in the state before each season.  In any sport.  And yeah skills are important.  Really important.  But the best shooters/ball handlers/batters/sprinters/you name it out there hone their skills on their own time.  Before school, after practice, playing pick-up ball, camps, at home, etc.  If you think that trading a 50 min weight workout for 50 mins of BB skill work is gonna all of the sudden turn a program around, then your wrong.  Because quite honestly, it takes a lot more than just 8 hours of practice a week to be truly successful. [/quote] But, in the case of basketball, skills MUST have priority over strength especially when time is limited.  And, I would suggest to you that 50 minutes of daily skills work will be far more productive than the  50 minutes of weight lifting when it comes to determing the success of a basketball program.

[quote name="knows2much" post="815059" timestamp="1277754472"] This is so frustrating!  Dis I say that having a universal weight program was the "best" thing to do?!! No!  I said that you can have success with it and that it doesn't hurt any basketball team being stronger and faster.  I had success with it as a player.  I see teams having success with it now.  Yes East Chambers consistently makes post season.  That is success. You wanna bring up Cayuga again?  You just said that that state champ bb coach just did away with the universal off season.  Meaning that they had universal off season this year.  They won state!!  You said it not me.  There's proof right there that you can have success with it.  Plus....Cayuga had 2 D1 football players on the BB team this year.  Do you know what a D1 football player is?...an athletic specimen.  You can't tell me that had nothing to do with their success. [/quote] No, it doesnt "hurt" to be bigger stronger faster.  However, it DOES "hurt" to be bigger, stronger, faster if those attributes came at the expense of skills and game intellect.  The Hardin Jefferson teams are NEVER bigger, stronger, faster.  But, most of the time, they are definitely better developed in the skills area and understand the game better.  Those two items, unfortunately for you, are a higher priority and should be treated that way in the overall scheme of things.  And , by the way, I will always take the kid who can run the floor the entire game (aka cross country) without fatigue over the kid who can bench press some phenomenal amount of weight but lacks the stamina at crunch time.

Do you believe that Larry Bird got all of his bulging muscles and blazing speed plus supreme vertical jumping ability from a universal program?  Does Paul Gasol look like he is a Universal Off Season product?  How about Lamar Odom and Paul Pierce? I will be the first to agree that weight training certainly enhances the effectiveness of the skills but the skills MUST come first and when the time allocated to a sport in high school is limited, I believe that the skills should have considerable priority over the strength.  All the pros already had the skills before they got to the NBA and the weight training (easy to do when you have no other job) is an augmentation.

[quote name="ECBucFan" post="815049" timestamp="1277752572"] [quote author=AggiesAreWe link=topic=70692.msg815028#msg815028 date=1277747658] So, it's okay if East Chambers and Kountze uses the universal theory. True Clueless, are you listening. ;) [/quote] Well, it works great for EC!  ;D [/quote] If it is as great as some would have us believe, why isnt everybody using it? Successful  basketball coaches arent stupid.  If they see something that is beneficial, they most certainly will employ it.  I just want to remind you that when the game is tied in the last ten seconds, I want my guy who is shooting to have practiced that shot a million times and all of the strength in the world has no value at that point.  

[quote name="football10" post="815025" timestamp="1277746852"] In Anahuac they do a universal offseason.  They made the playoffs in football. They made to the Regional Finals in basketball. They made the playoffs in Baseball and sent 23 kids to regionals in track.  They lift and do agility everyday but game day.  Universal offseason works. [/quote] Yes, Anahuac had a great basketball season.  Can you say the same thing about each of the last five years?

[quote name="knows2much" post="815033" timestamp="1277748355"] Barbers Hill's BB program was g.a.r.b.a.g.e. before Price got there.  During his time Barbers Hill averaged 13 district championships a year for the school.  Know how many of those champtionships were football?.... not many (if any I don't know)  And that's 3A/4A pal.   So the best thing I can say is that you might as well accept it and get used to it because Coach Price has had success with it before so he'll probably stick with it.  Like I said before, if you don't like.  Then get a teacher certification, become an AD, and run your school athletic program however you want to. [/quote] If my memory is correct, most of the basketball success came when it was a relatively large 3-a school.  Love your theory about getting my certificate, etc etc etc.  If you want to become an AD in Texas you almost HAVE to have a football background.  I have no thoughts, good or bad, about Mr. Price.  Never met hiim and know nothing about him.  I do know, however, that the great majority of successful baskteball programs do not employ universal off season.

[quote name="ECBucFan" post="815006" timestamp="1277740297"] This is just silly now. Steve Jobs and Apple are #1 in consumer electronics [u][i]because[/i] they intensely focused on being #1 in consumer electronics![/u]    ::) Bottom line in this whole debate: Football [u]is[/u] king in Texas, period. It ain't gonna change! A few programs though do have differing priorities, and its their prerogative to do so. More power to em'. If anyone wants to fight against football in Texas, its going to be a long and entirely futile fight that will go very badly for them. If you want to put BB first, you would be far more comfortable in the state of Indiana or New York City.    [/quote] I have no argument with the fact that football is and is probably always going to be #1 in Texas.  I also have no argument with Apples focus on being number one.  But they are not number one using the One Shoe Fits All approach and there is nothing you can say or do to alter that fact.  This entire thread began because someone suggested that Universal Off Season will not benefit the H-F basketball program and I happen to agree.  Maybe you and I should just wait and see if it does or not.  Here is an idea.  Why not go back and pick any 3 years in the last ten in the state basketball tournament and see how many of the participants (all classifications) use Universal Off Season? If you wish to do it on a more local basis, go back and look at the regional tourneys for all classes last season and make the same analysis.  I can already tell you what you will find.  In 1-a, it will be fairly prevalent because all kids play all sports.  In 2-a, it will still be fairly prevalent for the same reason.  But when you get to 3-a and beyond, you are going to find just the opposite.  If you combine all 5 classifications and add up the numbers, there will be a substantial plus for those not using universal off season.

[quote name="ECBucFan" post="815000" timestamp="1277738579"] [quote author=stevenash link=topic=70692.msg814995#msg814995 date=1277737583] [quote author=ECBucFan link=topic=70692.msg814992#msg814992 date=1277737053] [quote author=stevenash link=topic=70692.msg814991#msg814991 date=1277736932]  To me, its sort of like deciding to let the Obama administration run all of the businesses in the country based on the premise it is "whats best for everyone". [b] If you believe the United States Postal Service and the House and Senate are well run/managed organizations, then I am subsequently guessing that you are a Universal Off Season supporter.[/b] [/quote] Oh please!  ::) [/quote] Oh please?  Its just a matter of whether someone believes that the top dog should micro manage or allow his managers some flexibility.   [/quote] To even try to correlate priorities of different AD's and their respective HS athletic programs with the wholesale incompetence and corruption within US government run programs is ludicrous!    ::)       [/quote]Sorry, but the chain of command is the chain of command.  If you dont want to use the government, you can make other analogies.  You can be assured that the I Phone was not invented/developed because Steve Jobs told all of his employees that they must develop their ideas in a specific manner.  "One Size Fits All' is very counterproductive in the business world and most schools that do well in basketball DO NOT use Universal Off Season.  If that doesnt please  you to hear it, fine.  But the fact remains that MOST consistently successful basketball programs do not use that approach.  Additionally, you are unwilling to acknowledge the fact that nearly every AD has a football background and human nature suggests that his approach is likely to give the advantage to football.  If that works and the basketball program happens to do well, thats great.  Say what you want or try to spin it however you want, but there just arent many programs where it turns out that way.

[quote name="AggiesAreWe" post="814994" timestamp="1277737501"] [quote author=stevenash link=topic=70692.msg814993#msg814993 date=1277737161] [quote author=sleepy link=topic=70692.msg814981#msg814981 date=1277735044] [quote author=AggiesAreWe link=topic=70692.msg814977#msg814977 date=1277732270] I have a question. I totally understand the arguements for both sides of this topic of "universal training". But my question is this, what are schools like HJ and Kountze doing to enhance their football programs? Football at these schools are greatly lacking in success. Why is that? Is it because they don't do "universal training"? [/quote] Come on AAW there is not a school in the state of Texas that does not do ENOUGH to make there football program succesful.  Very weak and you know why HJ is not winning in football.  [/quote]  If you are going to compare football to basketball, you must consider the numbers involved.  If you have 6 solid basketball players, you  have a great chance to do well.  You need three times that many to have that same chance on the football field.  I wonder why Lufkin Hudson has such a good basketball program.  I dont think it has anything to do with Universal Off Season. [/quote] Again, another bad example. Hudson does not play football. My question was what were schools like HJ and Kountze doing to enhance their non -successful football programs. I was not questioning if they were doing enough or not. [/quote] Hudson not playing football was my exact point.  They did not seem to need Universal Off Season to be "strong enough, big enough, fast enough" to play basketball.  Does anyone on this board know just how much Universal Off Season was used at Pt. Arthur Lincoln?  Should Kountze and HJ sacrifice the success of their basketball programs by having their athletes take a football based training approach?  I dont know of too many schools that have high success in every sport year in and year out. 

[quote name="ECBucFan" post="814992" timestamp="1277737053"] [quote author=stevenash link=topic=70692.msg814991#msg814991 date=1277736932]  To me, its sort of like deciding to let the Obama administration run all of the businesses in the country based on the premise it is "whats best for everyone". [b] If you believe the United States Postal Service and the House and Senate are well run/managed organizations, then I am subsequently guessing that you are a Universal Off Season supporter.[/b] [/quote] Oh please!  ::) [/quote] Oh please?  Its just a matter of whether someone believes that the top dog should micro manage or allow his managers some flexibility.  

[quote name="sleepy" post="814981" timestamp="1277735044"] [quote author=AggiesAreWe link=topic=70692.msg814977#msg814977 date=1277732270] I have a question. I totally understand the arguements for both sides of this topic of "universal training". But my question is this, what are schools like HJ and Kountze doing to enhance their football programs? Football at these schools are greatly lacking in success. Why is that? Is it because they don't do "universal training"? [/quote] Come on AAW there is not a school in the state of Texas that does not do ENOUGH to make there football program succesful.  Very weak and you know why HJ is not winning in football.  [/quote] If you are going to compare football to basketball, you must consider the numbers involved.  If you have 6 solid basketball players, you  have a great chance to do well.  You need three times that many to have that same chance on the football field.  I wonder why Lufkin Hudson has such a good basketball program.  I dont think it has anything to do with Universal Off Season.

[quote name="AggiesAreWe" post="814977" timestamp="1277732270"] I have a question. I totally understand the arguements for both sides of this topic of "universal training". But my question is this, what are schools like HJ and Kountze doing to enhance their football programs? Football at these schools are greatly lacking in success. Why is that? Is it because they don't do "universal training"? [/quote] My guess is that their philosophy involves allowing each coach to do what he thinks is best for his program rather than forcing all programs to sacrifice for the sake of success in football. Does anyone find it odd that about 97% of all ADs are football coaches?  To me, its sort of like deciding to let the Obama administration run all of the businesses in the country based on the premise it is "whats best for everyone".  If you believe the United States Postal Service and the House and Senate are well run/managed organizations, then I am subsequently guessing that you are a Universal Off Season supporter.

[quote name="knows2much" post="814975" timestamp="1277731204"] Actually, I know the Spurger coach and got a chance to talk to him at a track meet.  I asked what happened in the semifinals game...he said, "It is almost impossible to beat a team that athletic with what I have."  2nd of all, I bet Coach Sutherland would dispute the only reason HJ beat Navasota in the playoffs is blah blah blah.  I think that the fact that the man has won more playoff games than anyone in the area and most in the state may have something to do with HJ winning any playoff games.  He knows how to win them plain and simple.  Kind of like Michigan State being in the final 4 6 of the last 12 years. None of that even matters.  I played on a high school team that was very successful and we all did the "offseason" workouts.  Yeah it made us stronger...yeah it made us faster...yeah I think it made us better.  I also played 4 years of college BASKETBALL...we lifted 3 times a week sometimes 4 ALL YEAR.  Before and after season we lifted for strength, speed, and stamina.  During the season we lifted to maintain, but we still lifted. If you are so sure that Coach Sutherland would dispute that comment, why dont you ask Coach Sutherland why he DOES NOT use or BELIEVE in universal off season?  After all, you are giving him a lot of credit for his success, so why not find out what they keys are? By the way...when you max out, you are actually only doing about 3 lifts.  Once again, if you are consitantly lifting it will have no affact on you.  I'm done arguing my point.  If any of you think someone's season is going down the drain because of strength training during the period then your just ignorant. [/quote]

[quote name="tigerguy" post="814910" timestamp="1277685495"] [quote author=stevenash link=topic=70692.msg814908#msg814908 date=1277684695] [quote author=ST413 link=topic=70692.msg814907#msg814907 date=1277684191] [quote author=True Blue link=topic=70692.msg814905#msg814905 date=1277683781] [quote author=tigerguy link=topic=70692.msg814877#msg814877 date=1277670921] I listed several schools above...[b] I believe one of them even has a state championship [/b] a few years ago.  LOL the poor little pity party continues. [/quote] That statment shows you have no ideal what you are talking about. My wifes nephew was the leader on that team and my son played on the 2000 team for Evadale and I know they never touch a weight during BB season. And I know the 3 coaches that took the EC teams to the state games, and they never lifted during the season. So you need to get you fact stright before you make a statment like that. This Topic is about offseason football workouts during BB season, and you still have not proven were it has help any team. If you are OK with having a average team in every sport and going 1 or maybe 2 games into the playoffs thats fine, but some wont to have verygood team and make several trips to Austin. JMO for what is worth. [/quote] Maybe tigerguy is wrong,  I have no idea whgat goes on during the season at any school.  However you Truly Clueless have no business at all to tell anyone to get their facts straight.  When you have proven you seldom know the facts. [/quote] Consider leaving out bashing true blue and acknowledge the FACT that there is  relatively LITTLE success in basketball at schools that practice universal off season.  [/quote] That is your opinion.  The FACT is that schools can have lots of success even with having the basketball players pick up a weight.  The universal strength/speed training benefits all. You basketballers act like  a bunch of hens cacklin in the yard.  [/quote]If you are so good at FACTS, go ahead and give me the names of three CONSISTENTLY successfull basketball programs in this area that use universal offseason.

[quote name="tigerguy" post="814915" timestamp="1277687239"] [quote author=ST413 link=topic=70692.msg814914#msg814914 date=1277686673] [quote author=Wildcatter link=topic=70692.msg814911#msg814911 date=1277686250] [b]I do know that most football players take about a month to get into basketball playing shape when they come in for football so if the workouts are the same then why do the football guys struggle?  No one has said not to lift, just why would you max on game day?  Basketball workouts are not about the max weight, its about getting quicker, jumping higher, and working on your skill set such as free throws, ball handling etc.  It has nothing to do with grass drills and such.[/b]  If it is such a great idea then on Friday afternoon go to your field house and be a spotter while they max out on weights.  You will have easy job cause no one will be there.  It's funny, I grew up in basketball country and it is the total opposite as far as positions.  Most schools have separate position for AD.  Of course an AD wants success as long as it does not overshadow their program. [/q Now that is definately a statement I agree with. [/quote] I agree as well.  I don't know of any schools that do grass drills in the wintertime or max out on a game day.  That is a myth conjured up by the basketballers to make AD's and football coaches look bad.  [/quote] The basketballeers dont have to make the ADs and football coaches look bad (as far as basketball is concerened) In most coases they pull down the basketball progrmas (relative to others) and look bad themselves.

[quote name="ST413" post="814907" timestamp="1277684191"] [quote author=True Blue link=topic=70692.msg814905#msg814905 date=1277683781] [quote author=tigerguy link=topic=70692.msg814877#msg814877 date=1277670921] I listed several schools above...[b] I believe one of them even has a state championship [/b] a few years ago.  LOL the poor little pity party continues. [/quote] That statment shows you have no ideal what you are talking about. My wifes nephew was the leader on that team and my son played on the 2000 team for Evadale and I know they never touch a weight during BB season. And I know the 3 coaches that took the EC teams to the state games, and they never lifted during the season. So you need to get you fact stright before you make a statment like that. This Topic is about offseason football workouts during BB season, and you still have not proven were it has help any team. If you are OK with having a average team in every sport and going 1 or maybe 2 games into the playoffs thats fine, but some wont to have verygood team and make several trips to Austin. JMO for what is worth. [/quote] Maybe tigerguy is wrong,  I have no idea whgat goes on during the season at any school.  However you Truly Clueless have no business at all to tell anyone to get their facts straight.  When you have proven you seldom know the facts. [/quote] Consider leaving out bashing true blue and acknowledge the FACT that there is  relatively LITTLE success in basketball at schools that practice universal off season. 

[quote name="speechless" post="814886" timestamp="1277673577"] lebron doesn't do traditional weight lifting he does sport specific as most professional athletes do sure those pros lift but go figure what their time spent lifting is versus their skill development time is aint even close [/quote] The weight work came later after skills had been developed to the fullest because if the skill is not there, it is totally irrelevant how stong you are.

[quote name="tigerguy" post="814848" timestamp="1277655936"] [quote author=speechless link=topic=70692.msg814832#msg814832 date=1277646102] how do u know they get the same amount of athletic period practice tiem?  you been 2 all of thse programs? if being the AD is enough to decide what should happen during bball, baseball, or track season then why not save all the isd's some money and just let the AD coach them all to? [/quote] How do you know that they aren't?  Have you been to all? You and blue need a crying towel.  Have yourself a good little cry and things will be okay. [/quote] It doesnt take a mental giant to conclude that if you have a failing basketball program, it is NOT going to improve via universal off season. 

[quote name="wos08" post="814739" timestamp="1277566005"] Deron Williams is easily the #1 PG in the league, ofc he gets no airplay except in the playoffs for being in Utah CP3 puts up crazy stats because of their system.  The BACKUP point was putting up 19/9 whenever Paul was injured [/quote] I don't believe that anyone is "easily" the best point guard in the league. There are many quality point guards in the NBA and none of them is overwhelmingly better their peers as a group.

[quote name="Wildcatter" post="814530" timestamp="1277428675"] Just goes to show why the AD position should be separate position.  Football coaches are out for one sport and that is their own.  They have no regard for whether a basketball team wins or loses, nor do they really care.  Pretty patheic no matter what team it happens to. [/quote] Astute observation.  However, they will always tell you it is only being done to make the players bigger, stronger, and faster.

[quote name="Wildcatter" post="814531" timestamp="1277428893"] Lifting isn't the issue.  I would like for a basketball coach to walk in the field house on a Friday afternoon and tell he coach that we are going to be lifting today fefore the game on Friday night.  Does anyone think that the football furus are having their kids lift on game day?  If it is not a big deal then let them do the same.  That is why it should be a separate position. JMO [/quote] I like your perspective.  Whats good for the goose is good for the gander

[quote name="Betrayed" post="814442" timestamp="1277403544"] Just like those kids across those tracks didn't have anything to do with all that success Hj has been having since the Rebels became the Hawks ;D Seems like all the props goes to you and the coaches and players from that town off of 105  ::) Jordan said it best,"Players win Championships" not coaches or GM's!! I didn't see those coaches or assnt coaches playing with a broken nose, badly sprained ankles, the Flu, and stomach viruses ;) [/quote] Nice flowery commentary.  Yes, player[font=Verdana]S[/font] win championships.  Also EVERY kid on a team has something to do with a teams success, not just those from specific geographic areas.  And ALL of the successful teams achieve their greatness based on who the COACH thinks should play. (instead of some less than intelligent faction that believes it/they know more than the coach)You got so enthralled with your response, you forgot to answer the question.  And yes, players do play hurt.  I can remember when Gus could barely walk in the playoffs but continued to play and play well.  You do know Gus, don't you.  He is the one you said would lead the district in turnovers.  How did that prognositication work out?  I will let you in on a little secret:  The coaches are going to play who they think will help the team the most and they WONT take into consideration if a kid is from across the tracks or in a "town" off 105.  I would say that this approach has worked pretty well, wouldnt you agree?  Here is another novel thought:  If a player isnt getting enough playing time, maybe he should consider working harder or practicing more instead of those other UNPRODUCTIVE methods. 

[quote name="setxguru" post="814418" timestamp="1277395957"] I think if you look at Coach Price's track record just at Barbers Hill, the boys basketball team was in the playoffs every year.  So why would you think that this would be to target basketball.  I think HF is in a very tough basketball district and that has alot to do with the lack of success in that area.  [/quote] You might be right.  However, please give the names of three or four consistently successful basketball programs where all athletes participate in year round universal off season training.

The Beaumont Enterprise suggests/implies that the Longhorns will be participating in a true Universal Off Season  program this coming year.  Does that have any impact on your prognostication for a relatively imminent state BBALL title for the H-F?