mwmuck

Is it being broadcast on etsn? I couldn't see anywhere on their site that said anything about it.

Is the game being broadcast?

So, I have been trying to speak logically and reasonably with a lawyer. I have been trying to explain the principles of fairness and governance in a volunteer organization to a person whose job it is to twist and distort the rules in the favor of their client? If truly you are a lawyer then you understand the language of Art 12 Sec 1. It is written in the language of sharks and it was given to us by a really, really BIG shark. Others have made the mistake of thinking this is just a group of tater-diggers; they're gone, we're still here. I've been wasting my time. Please identify yourself as a lawyer at the start of any conversation dealing with rules, laws or the interpretation of those so that whomever you are speaking with will know that they are trying to convince a pig to sing. It is a waste of their time and it annoys the pig.

Reading comprehension must be a problem in Woodville. I typed as slowly as possible so that maybe you would understand. Art 9, Sec 2 speaks about an MPR that is worked on by reps of [u]both[/u] teams. If they work on it together then they both have to sign it to be used in a complaint. The Silver MPR rep and the Maroon MPR rep working with her agreed and admitted it to the league VP that the Silver was short. Art 9, Sec  4 state that if a team does not supply an MPR rep to work with the opposing team's MPR rep (which Silver didn't do) then they will be under the work done by the opposing team's MPR and that MPR will be binding in all proceedings. Obviously, if the team doesn't supply an MPR person then they can't sign it. Sec 3 talks bout the PROPER way to do MPR's which Silver didn't do. Sec 5 talks about what happens if a coach doesn't put his players in at the 1st of the 4th. It doesn't say anything about failure to play all of your players. Please try reading all of the Article and not just little pieces of it that you fantasize will prove your point. Well, since you are on the side of the little guys, you are espousing legal action taken by Galveston to force a non-profit organization to allow a group to play that had been found to have been cheating by their Board and now you believe that the Silver parents should have taken legal action against this non-profit even though they admitted to breaking the rules. I wish you luck in forming your own league. The restraining order didn't save Galveston did it? A court forced the organization to let one team play and their whole organization got canned. You may applaud that, I think it's sad. They played and ended up without a place to play again and any organization would be out of their freakin' minds to let them join their league. Now you have stated that you favor legal action when things don't go the way you think it should. People that think that way are the black plague of any volunteer organization. Every organization that has been around more than a year or two has a cure for that. TIFI did, STJFL does and so do we.  Good luck getting ANYONE to bring your new league in. Maybe you and Galveston can play and sue each other. Vaya con Dios, Amigo.

OK, I've been talking on too high a level evidently. Lets break this down so that you can understand it. 1) The staff in question was accused early in the season of not playing their players by another team. That team had not followed the rules to make their complaint viable and so it didn't stick. It did cause the Board to warn the Silver staff about the importance of their MPR. 2) I personally asked the Lonestar Secretary to work with the Silver MPR person to make sure they got everything right when they were at HF. They accused her of phoning in their plays to the other team. 3) The staff asked me directly if it was true that they had to have everyone in at the 1st of the 4th. I said yes and that they needed to read the rules or they were going to get bit. 4) The Silsbee board was getting word from some of our own parents that some of the kids on Silver may not be getting their plays. It was denied and again I reminded them that they were being watched and that they needed to have their MPR's straight and by the numbers. 5) Nowhere in the bylaws does it address what happens when you fail to play all of your players. One clause addresses what happens if you fail to get them in at the 1st of the 4th. That is what you seem to be stuck on. There is a difference. We have suspended coaches for not getting their players in at the 1st of the 4th even though they DID get all of their players in before the end of the game.  6) Your comment that we are only going on what we have heard is obtuse. We have the facts and they were dealt with. I tried to explain them to you. Get over it. 7) The league broke no rules. The Silver staff did but you seem to be OK with that as long as they were allowed to play. The board in Silsbee and the one presiding over Lonestar don't agree with you and I feel that most everyone else reading this doesn't either. I've tried to explain this to you. I didn't have to but you seemed ill informed and perhaps slow to understand so I thought that hearing from an official voice would help ease your concerns but now you have ventured off into the area where it's obvious you don't want to understand. So, please feel sorry for the kids in Silsbee. They have it hard dealing with such horrible volunteers. They won two Super Bowls and one second place trophy this year out of three divisions. They would have had a Consolation trophy but your team decided that they weren't going to show up and play. No other team was accused by anyone of violating the rules. Just the one you are determined to defend. The other coaches in Silsbee understand why things went down as they did. They played their kids, they followed the rules and had success. If you feel so sorry for the kids in Silsbee then perhaps you need to do the work to form a league, get other affiliations to be able to play games, secure insurance, a site to play at and then do the paperwork, write rules that no one will ever have a problem with, deal with a thousand personalities with a good percentage of them wanting to tell YOU that you are screwing up. Do this and then you can save all of the kids in Silsbee from the people that have already done all of those things for these kids. You can do that or you can sit in the stands or on the 'Net and tell everyone how you would do it if you just had the cajones.   

Once again, FootBFan, the assumptions are the problem. Evidently the coach in TIFI had the benefit of knowing it would cost him a forfeit but he did it anyway. People do stuff every day that they know there are rules against and prices to pay for violating them. Also, I wish I knew everything that people are going to do so we could have a rule and punishment already laid out but I've had a hard time knowing what is going to happen next and what sort of lunacy we'll be faced with next week or next year. That's why Art 12, Sec 1 exists. Final dispensation of all problems rests with the Board. Period. We don't have a rule that states what we will do to an Association president that tries to smuggle a 13 year old onto a team but it happened and we had to deal with it. We don't have a written rule that states what we will do when an entire Association board doesn't act when one of their officers has been caught cheating but we have had to deal with it. We have to be able to be flexible because the people that want to stretch, bend or break the rules are coming up with new angles every day and we can't cover every base for every situation. Your idea that the Silver group and parents were just saying that they wanted it in black and white is where it ended up but not where it started. First, it didn't happen. Total denial. Then when the MPR person, (the head coach's wife) stated that Silver didn't get their kids in it turned into the idea that there were only 6 plays run in the whole 4th quarter so they couldn't possibly get them in. Film showed that to be a complete lie. When the opposing MPR showed at least 8 plays in the 4th for one of their players, the coaches accused their MPR person of lying and falsifying her MPR. She is also our Secretary/Treasurer for the Association and we trust her with our legal papers and our bank account so I felt that we could trust her to fill out an MPR properly. Film showed that she had. Then it was the opposing coach's fault, then I was in their corner all year and over and over until they finally came out with the idea that since it isn't in black and white that the team that broke the rules still got to advance. What lesson is that for the kids? Next, if they couldn't get their way then they would quit, take their toys and go home. Another great lesson. I'm sorry it happened.  The good thing about this, and I'm sure that you will be pleased, is that we no longer have to worry about that whole "I didn't know that I might lose if I broke the rules" thingy. I think everyone everywhere knows what the Lonestar Board will do if you are caught not playing your kids now. Everyone should be pleased. 

What the league did was investigate a violation of the Mandatory Play Rule and make a ruling based on those violations. The violation was admitted to, the MPR form showed the violation, Silver didn't get their kids in, the film showed it and Art 9 sec 5 deals ONLY with what happens to a coach that doesn't put their players in at the 1st of the 4th and not what happens if he refuses to get his players all of their plays. I'm sorry you can't get past that misunderstanding. Every league in this area reacts the same way to a coach violating that rule. TIFI kicked out an entire association for the same violation. Obviously not playing all of the kids on the roster isn't very serious in Woodville but it is everywhere else. Someone standing up for the kids should be asking why Silver didn't get their kids in when they were ahead most of the game. Self-righteous individuals supporting the kids should ask why the adults supervising these children put them into this position when they had already been warned about it twice this season. People that accuse should ask themselves if we should advance a team in the playoffs that violated one of the most important rules over one that played by the rules. Self-proclaimed advocates of the kids would be asking why a bunch of adults held their kids out of the playoff game to make a point. Was that about the kids or about the parents? If you knew half of what you would like to think you do about administration of youth sports you wouldn't have to ask the question "When did the game become about adults?" Adults are the biggest problem in youth sports and always have been. They are the ones that make it about them and then hide behind "its about the kids". Adults are the ones that make the news when winning becomes more important than HOW you win. The Maroon team didn't cause this, Silver did. The rules didn't make this about adults, the Silver staff and parents did. The rules are there to PROTECT the kids from adults that might not let them play in the game. Those adults stepped across the line and put their team into this position even after being warned twice. Then that same staff tells their parents and players that they are NOT going to play in the playoff game. JC, was that about the kids or about the parents? I'm from Silsbee, I founded that organization. These are my teams and it made me sick to my stomach to have to deal with this whole stupid affair. Lonestar had a staff that violated one of our most fundamental rules, it was admitted to, it was proven on film and paper, the rules governing the investigation and decisions were followed to a tee. If the same situation occurred tomorrow it would be handled the same way. Game over. 

Silsbee didn't win the Super Bowl in the Jr division. East Chambers did that.

The rule being spoken about is the punishment for not getting the kids in at the start of the 4th and doesn't deal with what happens to a coach that doesn't play all of the kids. To begin with, after watching the film at the request of the Silver staff, there were plenty of plays in the fourth to be able to get all of the kids in so the excuse of not having enough plays has been proven untrue. Speaking with the officials that called the game there was nothing illegal that the Maroon team did at any time in the 4th quarter. The woman keeping the mandatory play roster for the Silver team admitted they didn't get their players in. Twice this season the Silver team had been counciled on the proper and mandatory regs dealing with player participation. They were aware of the regs and that they were being watched. At some point the victory must be in jeopardy for a rule to have teeth. If a suspension was the only penalty available to the Board then a coach could leave his MPR at home and take the suspension to win a big game without subs and sit out the next week against a weaker team. Or a coach that knows he isn't coming back next year could go into a Super Bowl game and not play his subs and the suspension wouldn't mean anything to him and he could still get the win. The victory has to be in jeopardy at any time a coach can benefit from breaking the rules. Article 12, Sec 1 of the bylaws speaks of final dispensation of all issues belongs to the LJF Board based on their best judgment. The Board voted unanimously to forfeit the game after looking at the facts around the issue. Coaches can win games and they can lose games for their team. It was the responsibility of the Silver staff to know and follow the rules. They didn't and it cost the team. The disturbing part of this is that the parents weren't upset with the staff that didn't get the kids their plays but with the people that have to enforce the rules. The part that FootBFan isn't speaking about is how the head coach of Silver put out a text to the parents and told them that they weren't playing in the Consolation round and so LJF had to line up another team to play in the final round of the playoffs. A group of kids from Hamshire-Fannett that hadn't had a chance to practice all week showed up and were thrilled to get a chance to play for a big trophy. That trophy lives in H-F now instead of Silsbee because a coaching staff and group of Flag parents interpret the rules the way they want them to be and keep their kids from being able to play football to make a statement. This is the first time a team from Silsbee decided to not show up for a game. They embarrassed a great organization. I don't use a fake name and I DO know the rules. I helped write them. Mark Muckleroy Coaches Representative Lonestar Junior Football President Silsbee Junior Football

Buna 21 kountze 0  half

I couldn't imagine anyone beating wo. I certainly can't stretch my brain to believe they were in the weak league.

Well td you quoted me while speaking to me and based your statements off that quote and nothing you said was true. You didn't say you "were told" that Silsbee brought Sr's, you said they DID. You didn't say you "were told" that Silsbee was told to bring Sr's, you said they WERE told, several times. Both untrue. You stated it as the truth, it wasn't. I was there, I ran the clock, I'm the prez in Silsbee and can guarantee that there wasn't any player on the field for Silsbee that didn't certify at our stated weights for Jr's. I don't state things I don't know to be 100% true. For one thing our insurance would not cover a game where we mixed ages and weights other than what we stated when we got the insurance. Anyone that would do that is irresponsible and probably asking for lawsuits. You finished up by telling me that if I didn't know it then thanks to you I know it now. Sorry if you felt attacked but you poured out a bunch of stuff at me that didn't even resemble the truth. You say that you have nothing to do with the two leagues anymore but felt that you should straighten me out about the game last year with things you didn't even know to be true. Seems that you had the bunch of words that didn't mean anything. I guess being corrected is considered an attack. On another subject, we know why the wo team left wo and went to PW. If I had to put money on it I would have figured wo would have gone to Florida. Talent on top of talent and well coached. The stuff about HJ being scared was for the other yokels that were bumpin their gums about HJ not playing the Jr game and that BC will "take care" of HJ. That didn't turn out to be true either.

Sorry td. Silsbee was never told to bring the SR kids and didn't have a single Sr kid and with a little reading comprehension you can go back and read where I said that wo was beating up on 8 year old running backs....which is what they were. I never said that they were beating up on 85 lb kids. Our 10 year olds HAVE to move up at 86 pounds. STJFL 10 year olds can play Jr up to 135. Ray Charles could see that is a problem in matching up the two leagues.  Now I would believe that wo brought SR players. Perhaps that's the point where your story turned into a humorous display of how much you DON'T know. As for the HJ players, coaches or fans being scared of wo, if on even footing, you are dreaming. I haven't noticed HJ being scared of anything. Insulting the coaches or fans as lacking guts shows a disconnect with reality. Perhaps the pee-wee group would consider coming over and playing the Jr group from HJ. We can ignore the mutual league Mercy Rules and let HJ run up 70 points on your pee-wee group like wo did last year. Whassamatta? Its the same idea, isn't it? I know the ages and weights don't match up but according to the logic of several on here, it shouldn't make any difference and its just a matter of being scared. 

The players in the two associations match up, weight and age wise, in the Sr divisions. The rules are the same. The Jr division is way out. Lonestar Jr division is 8-10 year olds and any 10 year old over 85 must move to SR. In STJFL the Jr division is only 9 and 10 and a 10 year old can carry the football up to 105 pounds and can play Jr division up to 135 pounds. We warned against the Jr game that went on last year but didn't stop it even though we should have. The differences in sizes and weight showed up from the very beginning of the game. 105 lb/10 year old running backs and 135 lb 10 year olds against a team where the biggest 10 year old is less than 85 lbs and has 8 year olds on the team is no match up at all. It's target practice. Last year WOS had a good time beating up on the Silsbee 8 and 9 year olds with their heavyweights. They proudly pounded on a couple of 8 year old running backs. If HJ Jr agrees to this game then they are crazy.

Wow, Trashman. You thought [u]I[/u] was upset. I was just trying to calmly correct some obvious low-voltage brain functions on your part.  I think that last post qualifies as "upset". Now I must leave again Trashman and go forth into the world of adults though before I go I want to wish you luck in getting your certificate in fourth grade English comprehension. I enjoyed re-hashing the Beaumont Bulls/Lonestar stuff again almost as much as I did when it happened which was as much fun as a root canal. Dealing with R and M after the SR thing was over was a pleasure and we understood the reasons R gave us for going back to TIFI the next year and thought we all left on good standing. The Super Bowl in Beaumont is still one of the top events we've had. I've still got my shirt. Though it musta shrunk a bunch because it sure has gotten tighter.....

I've explained it every way I know how. I haven't called any names. You are accusing good people of doing things under the table. You are accusing people of lying and going against the rules. I have tried to explain but some folks do not care to hear the truth if it doesn't fit their preconceived idea of reality. Fine. Let's try it this way: I'm to blame. I personally stacked HJ's team with fifty Lumberton gorillas so that they could win a pee wee football game. I'm guilty as charged. You win, Trash. I couldn't sneak anything past ol' dead-eye. Why, if it weren't for Lumberton kids that we recruit, we wouldn't know which end of the football sticks in the tee. But wait 'till next year when we recruit kids from Pt Neches to play for HF and kids from Nederland to play for EC. My personal favorite will be recruiting Vidor kids to go play in.....VIDOR!! I'm just glad you didn't find out about the Kountze kids that play for Silsbee or the Little Cypress kids that play for MV and DV. That would have been the end of Lonestar as we know it.

Silsbee does have a Lumberton kid playing in our junior division. He was not allowed to sign up with Lumberton because he had missed the deadline and was turned away. We made a place for him because we were still signing up. Chances are that he will return to Lumberton next year and not miss the date. But I wasn't going to turn him away when I could give him a place to play this year. We also have an Evadale kid. Two years ago we had a Lumberton kid and his father was a coach with us that year. We don't have "7th grade spots", rashman. We have more than one reason to grant a variance on enrollment and all of the Associations know and have used the system. It's there to allow for situations that arise that do not fit every rule. It is what it is and does not require your approval or notification. I have no doubt that your buddies around town are clueless. That would go without saying.

You ain't listening Trash. Perhaps you don't want to hear the truth. I'll write this very slowly so that maybe you will understand it this time. We ALLOW kids from other places to play with our Associations by decision of the Board before the season. EVERY Association has the same right to go before the Board and ask for anything. It doesn't mean that we will grant it but if it is in our guidelines or we have a precedent set in that instance then we do what we can to work with the Association making the request. It's no dark secret. HJ did that. They followed the rules that we have been working under since the inception of the league. Kids had nowhere to play. The Association followed the rules. We granted them the ability to sign up those kids and I would do the same thing for any other Association that asked for it. Do you think this is the first variance we have granted, Trash? Is this something new to you? Well it ain't for us. It happens in one or more Associations every year. It happened in three of ours this year. Live with it. Situations and circumstances happen when you deal with humans that do not fit in a nice, neat box. That's why we listen to the folks that volunteer in this organization and help when we can. The people on the Board have forgotten more about running this organization than you will ever know and that is why I can come on here and speak with knowledge and experience and you can come on here and spew accusations and speak of things you know nothing about while showing your own ignorance of the subject to everyone here. In the meantime, back off HJ, they've done nothing wrong. You want to blame someone then blame me, take a number and wait in line with everyone else. 

The kids from Lumberton that play in HJ were cleared to do so by the LJF Board of Directors before the season. Mofo had nothing to do with it. You wanna whine anymore about it then do it to me. I'm one of the ones that cleared it. He's a volunteer doing the best he can. You don't know what is going on and you ain't listening to people that do know what is going on. That's not a good combination.

I stand corrected. Has it always been this way and is it that way with all of the TIFI teams you play?

I thought that you had a couple from HJ. Collecting kids from Beaumont is drafting from the biggest group of talent in SE Texas. How many elementary schools are in Beaumont while most towns surrounding Beaumont have one? First come, first served? I was under the wrong impression. How does all that talent show up in the first 25? [quote]The TIFI league that the Beaumont Bulls plays in do not allow 7th graders.  You can also live anywhere around here and play. You are not restricted do to where your house is. They used to play in Lone Star and decided to go back to TIFI. [/quote]

The issue with the Beaumont Bulls SR team was one of tougher decisions we have had to make. We wanted Beaumont to be able to enter league play with us and give the kids from Beaumont an alternative to Pop Warner or playing select ball with TIFI. In opening negotiations with the people that were trying to form the Beaumont association we told them that we are basically a small school organization and that perhaps STJFL might be a better fit since they have many large school organizations and accept the idea of putting all the good kids on one team. We were assured that they had investigated that option and had decided to come with us. In our initial discussions the ground rules were that the teams would be of equal talent and from a narrow field of schools. Stacked, hand-picked or A-B-C teams would create a problem. It is very important that idea is followed since most of the elementary schools in our association compare, numbers-wise, with each of the four elementary schools that Beaumont would be bringing kids in from. The opportunity to combine kids from different schools to make a very talented team was foremost on our minds and in our discussions. We revisited that idea with Beaumont consistently and were assured that TIFI all-stars would not happen. Then we are faced with a TIFI Sr team. After expecting that Beaumont would get out and get a Sr team of kids from the designated schools we ended up with basically the same team that had traveled with TIFI the year before. The hand-picked group. That was not cool. As for calling everyone and their brother, your two leaders knew what the deal was. We had discussed what the problem was with them at length. They could have answered you. I could have answered you though I do not remember ever getting a call. Your leaders understood and knew what had happened to make us take the steps we did and had told us that they had seen it coming. We didn't see that happen with the other Beaumont teams and they had a stellar year and we even had the Super Bowl in Beaumont that year. All of the Board understood that you wanted to keep your TIFI team together but it would have been unfair to a whole lot more kids in our league to allow a select team to compete. Secondly, Deweyville has never been all 7th graders and no team in our league has ever been comprised of all 7th graders. After scrimmaging Deweyville, Clyde said that he had never seen a pee wee club with that much talent and Clyde would know. No one said that you cheated. No one begrudged your desire to keep your select team together but we would have been derelict in our duty to all the kids in the league to turn that hand-picked team loose against league teams. It would have been wrong. We pleaded with Beaumont to split their select talent before we even started and it appeared that they did....everywhere but the lone Sr team. This may not have been what you wanted to hear but it should have been known to you years ago. I'm sorry you were never told by your president. He knew. By the way, your son has done well at WB. mark

TIFI is an all-star team. A traveling select team gathered from all over SE Texas, if you prefer. A team of all-stars thrown together from either league, practiced for a week and put up against the Beaumont TIFI would have a hard time.

I was told I should get on here and see what is going on. I'm Mark Muckleroy. I was one of the original Founders of both of the leagues here. I now hold the positions of Coaches Representative for Lonestar and I am the founder and president for the Silsbee Association.  One of the original rules that we set down concerned ages. Five to twelve years old would be allowed to play. It is that simple. We do not distinguish between a 12 year old sixth grader or a 12 year old seventh grader. We leave that to the other league. The reasons that originally became an issue within the league that existed at that time had nothing to do with too much practice, homework, pediatricians, training or puberty. It had EVERYTHING to do with who could have 7th graders and who couldn't based on the school programs. Some schools, because of their athletic administration, will not allow anyone involved in their programs to be involved in any other program. Other programs feel that the more work the kid gets in that sport the better they will become. Those issues are outside the realm of what Lonestar considers. Since our inception as Southeast Texas Junior Football during the winter of 1999 we have only dealt with the idea of providing a service to the kids and parents of the area. We do not now, nor did we then, want to challenge the school systems that our kids feed into. Rather we wanted to help prepare and groom kids for greatness in their chosen sport. We respect the guidelines set down by our associated school districts but at the same time we are not going to turn away kids from one district that has no problem with a 12 year old playing in our league just because 12 year olds in another district are restricted by that district. We also do not decide what and how much is on the plate of the kids we serve. That is now and has always been the responsibility of the parents of those kids. They make those decisions. We hold firm to the idea that a 12 year old IS a 12 year old. We do not recognize puberty by association with a grade in school. On the contrary, we recognize that hormones have no respect for age, social status, placement in school or color of uniform. Lonestar Junior Football has no rules governing puberty, hormone displacement or hair on chest. By our rules, we accept anyone within our associations between the ages of 5 and 12 and anyone outside our league that has no league to play in. See how simple that is. No concern of the details. 5-12 years old qualifies. On the issue of the kids that play in this league that aren't within the districts in question. Every child playing in our league has been cleared and sanctioned by the administration of the league to the best of our ability. Those on here and elsewhere that squeal about cheating and recruiting and false records insult the work done to try and make this as honest and transparent as possible. Answers about this situation were given to the folks that came to us and asked like adults. We have had kids from Lumberton come and play with us before this season and it has never been an issue. Those that would like to become private investigators that would check into the truth on birth certificates, school report cards and utility bills should apply to work for the league at the same rate of pay that we all get for doing this. In fact, by the power invested in me as the Coaches Representative of Lonestar Junior Football I can guarantee that I will see to it that you get DOUBLE what each of the Board members and officers of the local Associations gets. How can you refuse an offer to work your tail off, endure lots of gripes with few thank-you's and dedicate every weekend for months on end. If this sounds like something that you have been itching to do then please apply today and become part of the solution.... ....or sit in front of the computer squirting out stuff you know nothing about and be part of the problem.   I am easy to find. My contact info is all over our website. I am always available to answer any question concerning any issue that may come up from anyone associated with any league. If I don't know the answer, I will find it. If there is a problem I will deal with it. Give us a chance to do that before spouting out rumor, innuendo and total BS about people doing volunteer work for the kids. That's why I came on here to set the record straight. Mark Muckleroy Coaches Representative Lonestar Junior Football and friend of Clyde    

The rules in LJF are: A player will be recognized as part of the district where they WOULD attend public school if they are home-schooled or attend private schools. However, we also recognize the teaching profession and those that carry their kids with them as a matter of work. Those participants simply have to ask to play based on the idea that they are attending a school outside their residence and explain why. Provide proof of enrollment at the school and I do not recall ever turning a child away from playing football with the kids he goes to school with. We have lots of kids that attend schools outside their home districts because their parents work outside that district and have enrolled them close to their work for financial or other reasons. mark