tvc184

It might be beating a dead horse but it appears that the self-defense and stand your ground situation is on the side of Arbery. I believe your statement is correct, you feel like these guys were “out of line”, is pretty much the case. When they were out of line, they unlawfully caused the confrontation by introducing the firearm when not justified. That negates their self defense but justifies Arbery’s self-defense. It really seems as simple as that.

I did not see this version until now, I saw a photo and a few seconds of video, as I said previously. He didn’t go down with the first shot (which is off camera). Nothing in that video changes my opinion. The McMichaels used unlawful force to make an unlawful arrest. EVEN if the arrest was lawful, I have yet to hear an argument that justifies using a shotgun to arrest an apparently unarmed person who is trying to escape. If the McMichaels use of force was unlawful (I think so and so does the jury), Arbery’s attempt to use force by grabbing the gun was lawful. It is he who did not provoke the incident and has a right to stand his ground. Both self-defense and a stand your ground laws say that you could not be breaking the law or provoking the incident to use those defenses. The claims of self-defense by the McMichaels or their using force to stop Arbery’s attack, would be meaningless unless the McMichaels had the legal authority to use the shotgun to stop the unarmed man. I simply cannot understand the legal justification for using force as they did and again, the state not only indicted them almost within hours of seeing the evidence, they indicted the prosecutor for a cover-up. Thank goodness one of the convicted murderers that helped cause this, videoed his own evidence against himself. I am curious to see the evidence against the district attorney. I don’t think legally it can be for just her opinion. I have the suspicion that somebody in her office turn state’s evidence that the district attorney compelled or ask them to overlook the evidence or the alter it. The district attorney was indicted for violating her oath of office and for obstructing a police office. That sounds like the police were trying to file a case or gather further evidence and she did something to interfere or shut it down.

For anyone that thinks three guys were not guilty…. Why was Arbery shot 3 times when the first shot either killed or incapacitated him? When the local DA looked at the incident for several weeks and decided that there was nothing to investigate and would not even submit it to a grand jury, why did the state police look at it for about 24 hours and come back with warrants? Why did the state then indict the DA for a cover-up?

Yes.

And I see while I was typing, the jury came to the same conclusion I did before the McMichaels were even indicted. From the photos and partial video that I saw, the first shot hit Arbery in the head and almost certainly killed or incapacitated him. I did not watch the evidence at trial but from what I understand, McMichael then pump two more rounds into him. Even assuming that everything else was legal up until that point, what justification is there for firing two rounds into somebody who has been shot the head? It seems from the evidence and their own actions, these guys had a problem and it wasn’t really because a black guy was jogging down the street who may have committed a nonviolent crime. I believe Georgia law is automatic life in prison with a possibility of parole at 30 years at the discretion of the judge only. Bye bye…… I am sure they will appeal.

I never said no why was broken. I believe the McMichaels committed the crimes of aggravated assault for trying to run over Arbery and also for pointing a shotgun at him without justification. They also committed false imprisonment by ordering him to stop without legal justification. Your question about asking a person to stop is disingenuous at best. That sounds like a question as if Arbery was walking down the street minding his own business and a couple of guy said hey, do you mind talking with us. Pointing a shotgun at someone and order the person to stop is hardly legal unless you can justify a deadly force in an arrest of an unarmed person. The then Georgia law said you had to have an immediate knowledge of a possible felony. First it was no felony but even assuming it was possible to think there was a felony they had to have immediate knowledge. They had none. They were not in the area. Immediate knowledge without witnessing it is like if you hear a shot inside of a store and a few seconds later see a man running out with a bag and a gun. It makes it look like he just committed a robbery and that would probably be a reasonable conclusion. Even if it was not, it could be a reasonable belief. The Michaels had none of that.

The only questions I saw you ask they were not directed at me, are answered. What do you want to know?

Murder

She is an attorney. Her claim to fame for the Democrats? She was on Barack Obama‘s transition team. No wonder she laughed out loud when asked on camera what Biden could do to lower the gasoline prices.

From my opinion and the officers that I have worked with over the years (over 300) have no issue with citizens arrest. In fact we respond to those calls several times a week. The thought that, you don’t do the cop’s job, doesn’t come from the police. It comes from people who don’t like people taking action. Even looking at the Rittenhouse case as a comparison, I have probably read 1, 000 statements that it was not Rittenhouse‘s business. It for the most part is not the police saying that. When deadly force is used in self-defense, I have seen several such situation where I worked, it isn’t the police that have issues. There is no indication that I have seen that indicated Arbery committed a felony. Arbery did not attack for three men. He tried to run away and had a gun shoved in his face. That was basically the prosecution‘s claim in the Rittenhouse case. Oh look, Rittenhouse attacked them. No, he was attacked. I would be stunned if the police did what the suspects did in this case. We don’t shove shotguns in peoples’ faces who are running away and have not displayed a weapon or made a threat to kill. If this had been uniformed police officers and acted the same way, they would be a huge outcry across this land.

I saw that and it is a poorly worded law. I understand the judge’s rationale from the way I generally read law. The second statement immediately follows the first making it appear as though they should be used together. Regardless of the judge’s ruling, I don’t understand how you can justify pulling a shotgun on somebody who’s running down the street, has not made a threat and has not displayed a weapon. When the gun is shove toward his face, Arbery appears to try to push the barrel away and was killed. The father and son are claiming self-defense however in this case, unlike Rittenhouse in Wisconsin, it appears that they provoked the attack. Arbery, like Rittenhouse, was running away. The only difference was that Rittenhouse was armed and Arbery was not. In states that allow such action, you can’t provoke the incident and then claim self-defense or stand your ground. If you could then a man could go into a store to commit an armed robbery and when the store owner tried to defend himself, the robber could kill him and claim stand your ground. It doesn’t work that way.

It sounds like self defense to me. It is a good thing he had (probably) uninterested witnesses.

I commented on another Internet forum on this a good while back when the story first came to light. At the time there was no indictment and the case is pretty much been dismissed by the local prosecutor. I looked into the case and said that it clearly looked like a cover-up for a former police officer in the county. I thought it was corruption and the guys should be indicted. It was a while back but it seems like I caught some grief and backlash for my opinion. Not long after I made those comments, the state police stepped in, looked at the evidence and indicted them in about 30 seconds. If I remember correctly they filed charges on the district attorney for misconduct for a covering up such an obvious crime. That alone should say something about this case I feel like they may get away with murder but I do believe it is murder. It was so egregious that I think they changed the state law immediately afterwards, making such a citizens arrest illegal. I read the law in that state before I made my comments in the other forum. Knowing that each state is different I wanted to look it up before I made my conclusion. It seems clear to me they had racial issues and had it been a white guy we would have never heard about it because they would not have shot him and probably would not have chased him. I hope that they are convicted but self-defense is sometimes hard to negate. They are claiming citizens arrest but even if they were doing so lawfully, and I do not think they were, why did they pull a shotgun on an apparently unarmed teenager who was fleeing when they outnumbered him? As far as the guy filming, he was an accomplice if it is ruled a murder. When Arbery was running away, the guy doing the filming was making phone calls to tell him which way he was running. Assuming the verdict is murder, he definitely participated by helping them catch up with Arbery. Let’s play what if. What if a person is shoplifting at Walmart with nothing further to go on, can a person follow that suspect into the parking lot and point a shotgun at him? That would seem like aggravated assault and unjustified force in my opinion. Texas law gives anyone the right to make a citizens arrest for theft but what gives them the right to threaten deadly force when there is no such indication of danger from the person being arrested for a nonviolent crime? Some people will make the comparison between this and Rittenhouse. It would be like comparing apples to rocks.

I have to hand it to you. You can state absolutely nothing and claim it as fact. Your comment about seeing what you want to see is very appropriate. Almost anyone can read your statements and see that exact situation. Let’s face it, you appear to be angry that Rittenhouse complied with all of the laws and a jury found the same thing. Even the judge realized that there was no violation claimed of carrying a rifle in the public by Rittenhouse. But, you say what you want to say and believe what you want to believe. Or maybe just trolling…

Do you actually see that somewhere in the law, as convoluted as Wisconsin law is, or is that just your opinion? Some states have laws that are so messed up I don’t think even lawyers can understand them. Texas laws used to be fairly simplistic and very easy to understand even for the average person however in the last 15 or 20 years, they have started to add some gibberish in some areas. An 18 or 19-year-old are teenagers and can legally carry long guns almost anywhere in Wisconsin. Is there a different law for target practice for a 17 year old than there is for 18 year old adult? Like maybe does it say a 17-year-old teenager is not allowed to carry weapons around other humans but an 18-year-old can? How about a 21 year old? I thought all weapons were dangerous and harmful to other humans. Is there a distinction in Wisconsin law between a 20 and 21 year old…. or a 17 year old and an 18 year old? I’m not even sure what your point is. If your point is that Rittenhouse should not have carried the weapon, great. I have said that in a couple of responses in various forums. It isn’t that he should not have been arm to protect himself but why go there in the first place? That has nothing to do with him lawfully defending himself from an unlawful felony attack by other people. Way before I was ever a police officer, I asked several long time police officers that I knew a hypothetical question. If I was a unlawfully carrying a weapon under Texas law by having a handgun with me and I shot and killed a guy that would otherwise been ruled as self-defense, would I be held for murder because of the weapon. The answer was always the same. Your right to protect your own life has nothing to do with an unlawful weapon. I would likely be charged with the weapon but not with homicide. You can simply look at New York as one of the most obvious cases. I don’t think there is anywhere in the country that has more strict gun laws than New York and in particular New York City. There is a United States Supreme court case which might be ruled on this week on that very issue from NY. Way back in 1984 Bernhard Goetz shot four teenagers on a subway who he said was trying to rob him. A few days later he turned himself in. A grand jury refused to indict him except on weapons charges. It was against the law to have a weapon but he still had the authority under New York law to protect himself. That did not sit well politically so they brought it to a second grand jury who under political pressure indicted him. He went to trial and a jury acquitted him of shooting all four people. He was convicted of the unlawful possession of a weapon charge. Unlawfully carrying a weapon or doing so even if lawful but not the smartest thing to do, does not negate lawful self defense.

If he was in Texas, he would be looking at the death penalty. Just sayin’…..

You’ll have to ask the people who make laws. I think it goes back to the old days and if you were going to commit a crime, you would conceal the weapon until the last minute and a handgun is easy to conceal where a rifle or shotgun is not. Some states to this day say is against the law to carry a concealed weapon. You could put a pistol on your hip line in a holster as long as it is visible and it is legal but if you cover it with a T-shirt, it becomes a felony. Why does the federal law say that an 18-year-old can possess a handgun and even buy one from another private citizen but the same legally purchased and carried handgun by the 18-year-old cannot be bought in a store such as Academy Sporting Goods. Does that make sense? An 18-year-old cannot go in the store and purchase a handgun but he could meet me in the parking lot of the same store and I could sell him one and it would be legal. Again, you need to ask the legislators.

There is a difference. If you go waving money and jewelry around at 2AM you know that you were drawing attention to yourself and asking to be attacked. Rittenhouse was one of several people with A.R. 15‘s openly carried and I really don’t think he was inviting people to attack him. He was not smart but likely neither were the other people carrying A.R. 15‘s openly that did not get involved in any kind of incident. I’ve got some strong opinions about rioters and the use of deadly force to stop them however I’m not going to go anywhere near a riot. For example Texas law gives the authority to use deadly force to stop an arson if necessary. I don’t care if you told me ahead of time that I would be cleared, I’m not going into a deadly force situation if I don’t have to. I seriously doubt the 17 year old kid had any clue as to the outcome that night. If you go flashing money and jewelry around in certain areas of town, you can almost guarantee the outcome. I know that you are aware but I spent 10 years on Swat, I’ve taught firearms including tactical firearms at the police academy for 30 years. I have qualified with and carry machine guns on duty and I would not have gone anywhere near that situation. Was the 17 year old kid immature? Absolutely.

And Dershowitz is generally seen as a leftist. He is hardly they dyed in the wool conservative Republican. I don’t always agree with Dershowitz’s opinion however he backs it up with the law and does not seem to always draw sides based on his politics.

I think they have a pretty wide latitude on use of force. In fact the public might be kind of shocked. Maybe the biggest case is Graham v. Connor. Graham was having a medical crisis for insulin shock. He ran into a convenience store to get some orange juice to get sugar into his blood but saw a line and immediately ran outside. He jumped in a car driven by a friend and he sped off to go to the next store. A police officer saw it and thought maybe he had witnessed an armed robbery because the guy ran in the store he came out a short time later in a hurry. The officer call for back up and stopped the vehicle with Graham. In his intoxication like the state from the hypoglycemia, he was kind of incoherent and the officers kicked the crap out of him. I think he had a broken ankle, some bruises about his head, and injured wrist, etc. Oops, it was not an armed robbery but a medical crisis. A completely innocent man who was having a medical crisis was thrashed by the police and sued and it went to United States Supreme Court. In a unanimous decision, the Supreme Court said, basically….. “Oh, well”. They came up with a term “objective reasonableness” saying that you had to put yourself in a position of an officer having to make a “split second” decision. They said it was easy with 20/20 hindsight to make a different decision however the police don’t have that luxury. In another case in front of the Supreme Court was Mullenix v. Luna that came out only six years ago this month. Texas DPS trooper Mullenix was involved in a high-speed chase. The driver of the car called Dispatch and he said he had a gun and he would shoot any police officer that tried to stop him and they needed to disengage in the chase. Mullenix position himself on an overpass up ahead and requested permission to fire on the car to disable it. His supervisor said “standby” and see if the spike strips work. The car hit a spike strips however Trooper Mullenix open the fire anyway. He said he was trying to shoot the engine or the radiator to disable the vehicle. Instead four of the six shots fired from his A.R. 15 hit the driver. The driver flipped the car and it was determined that the four shots for the A.R. 15 killed him. The family sued and it went to the Supreme Court. In an 8-1 decision the Supreme Court said that Mullenix was covered by qualified immunity and could not be sued. That is just two cases. In one an innocent person was beaten up by the police who thought they had witnessed a major crime but made a mistake. In the other a DPS trooper was told not to fire on a car by his supervisor and did anyway and instead of shooting the car, he shot the driver. In 9-0 and 8-1 decisions, the Supreme Court ruled in favor the police. It should be noted that these were not clear-cut cases where the officer’s life was in danger but quite the opposite. After the investigations it was found out that the officers made mistakes, yet in unanimous and nearly unanimous decisions the police were found not to be liable. In both of those cases however, the Supreme Court judges put themselves in a place of the officers and said, we understand how they drew that conclusion. I am wondering what information they had that justified shooting into a car a block away from a crime scene when nobody in the car was found to have a weapon or to be involved whatsoever. I think it is a little different than a guy jumping out of the car as a suspected armed robber and fighting with the police or a guy in a high-speed chase being witnessed by a trooper and calling in a threat to kill the police. The facts are not out yet but they need a mighty convincing argument to fire into a vehicle that is simply driving down the road. Even if I suspect was in it, in my opinion that does not justify opening fire.

How about Andrew Coffee IV who was found not guilty on the same day as Rittenhouse after he shot and killed a police officer who was part of a team serving a valid warrant? [Hidden Content]#

Yes.

I am not sure what you mean by the comment but is there a problem with an AR and self-defense?

It is not against federal law for a 17-year-old to possess a long gun. It may be against the law for the person who provided the gun but federal law allows a parent or guardian to give a gun to a juvenile. The Wisconsin law is kind of convoluted but I do not think it is against the law to carry a rifle or shotgun at 17 years of age in Wisconsin. That is why that charge will dismissed by the judge. In Texas making a readily dischargeable firearm recklessly accessible to a child only applies to a person under 17 years of age. Then the law only applies if the gun is loaded.

The AR15 was kept at another person’s home or storage in Kenosha. Much has been made about him crossing state lines however the US Constitution gives us the right to go anywhere in this country. In fact Rittenhouse lived about 20 miles away and worked in Kenosha and had family members living there. It would be a little more than driving from Beaumont to Port Arthur. If you want to add a state line scenario, it would be like driving from Orange, Texas to Vinton, Louisiana. The way it is portrayed on the Internet you would think somebody drove from Oklahoma to California to be involved in a protest.