Zone Defense

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1390762" timestamp="1364920943"]
[quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=110733.msg1390713#msg1390713 date=1364911625]
[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=110733.msg1390710#msg1390710 date=1364910652]
My point was that I believe Mr. Boeheim recruits the best basketball players he can find and then has them adapt to his system because he teaches it well.  I believe he could trade places with Coach K or Pitino right now and be very successful with those players using his system.
[/quote]And [color=red]MY POINT[/color] being is that  Boeheim's recruits have to [color=red]meet a certain criteria[/color] BEFORE he makes a commitment.
[/quote]

What criteria?  Are you telling me that Mr. Boeheim looks at potential recruits and somehow decides "now this guy could do well in my zone defense" and that guy cannot?  Or does he do like most coaches and gets the best players he can get?
[/quote]Exactly Nash, he may want to run from the 1-3-1 full court zone press  ;)

[stevenash]

Do you think he recruited Carmelo because of his adaptability to a zone defense?

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1390775" timestamp="1364924316"]
Do you think he recruited Carmelo because of his adaptability to a zone defense?
[/quote] He recruited Carmelo because he could score in his system  ;D Hmmm? I'm sure he taught him defense after practices started. ;)

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1390698" timestamp="1364907324"]
[quote author=Mr. Buddy Garrity link=topic=110733.msg1390665#msg1390665 date=1364872098]
[quote author=Honest Abe link=topic=110733.msg1390659#msg1390659 date=1364870548]
Do players who play for Jim Boeheim not have the talent level to play man defense? They absolutely COULD play man, but they don't bc of his 'system'. Seems to be working pretty well for him. ;)
[/quote] +1!!
[/quote] You can take that plus away now  ;)
[/quote] Question was general Dove. Cmon Dove you can read.  ::)

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1390739" timestamp="1364916557"]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=110733.msg1390727#msg1390727 date=1364915563]
Some coaches just believe in the zone concept, and what it can do to a team defensively. My dad was a HUGE zone guy..Me, not so much..I think that zones expose weaknesses in a team's ability to actually defend. On the high school level, trapping zones thrown in every now and then are good to stymie a team offensively and get them off of their rhythm, but like any other zone, if you stay in it long enough, they will adapt to it, and its no longer effective. Its hard to adapt to tough man defense..If you can disrupt an offense playing man, you've done something! That means you are guarding your B---S off!  ;D ;D...Side note: You DO NOT have to have athletes to play man, contrary to what some may think.  As a coach you have to be able to teach more "team" man concepts, which emphasizes help principles...But thats another conversation for another day.. ;)
[/quote]
Dickie- Don't help principles imply that some sort of "zone" is, in effect, being used?  As for "staying in it long enough" would that statement not apply to any type of defense?
[/quote]
You can NEVER really adapt to a solid MAN defense...You can make some adjustments, meaning a ball screen or back pick here or there, but as far as adapting to a good one, not really...The key word in my statement about zone was EMPHASIZING....Placing EMPHASIS on help principles... ::) ::)...Stevenash, this is the WRONG area to challenge me, my friend... 8)

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1390811" timestamp="1364928561"]
[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=110733.msg1390739#msg1390739 date=1364916557]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=110733.msg1390727#msg1390727 date=1364915563]
Some coaches just believe in the zone concept, and what it can do to a team defensively. My dad was a HUGE zone guy..Me, not so much..I think that zones expose weaknesses in a team's ability to actually defend. On the high school level, trapping zones thrown in every now and then are good to stymie a team offensively and get them off of their rhythm, but like any other zone, if you stay in it long enough, they will adapt to it, and its no longer effective. Its hard to adapt to tough man defense..If you can disrupt an offense playing man, you've done something! That means you are guarding your B---S off!  ;D ;D...Side note: You DO NOT have to have athletes to play man, contrary to what some may think.  As a coach you have to be able to teach more "team" man concepts, which emphasizes help principles...But thats another conversation for another day.. ;)
[/quote]
Dickie- Don't help principles imply that some sort of "zone" is, in effect, being used?  As for "staying in it long enough" would that statement not apply to any type of defense?
[/quote]
[size=12pt][/size][color=red][color=red][size=12pt][/size][/color][color=black]You can NEVER really adapt to a solid MAN defense[/color]...[/color]You can make some adjustments, meaning a ball screen or back pick here or there, but as far as adapting to a good one, not really...The key word in my statement about zone was EMPHASIZING....Placing EMPHASIS on help principles... ::) ::)...Stevenash, this is the WRONG area to challenge me, my friend... 8)
[/quote]

If what you say is true (you can NEVER really adapt) then how does anybody ever score on a solid man to man defense?  You must also then explain to me why Syracuse is still in the tourney.  After all, they have encountered some very talented and smart oppositions along the way.  By the way Dickie, you may think I shouldnt challenge you in this area but I have no problem doing so.  There are few, if any, absolutes in these types of discussions and I have access to some pretty decent minds regarding the game.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1390813" timestamp="1364928871"]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=110733.msg1390811#msg1390811 date=1364928561]
[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=110733.msg1390739#msg1390739 date=1364916557]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=110733.msg1390727#msg1390727 date=1364915563]
Some coaches just believe in the zone concept, and what it can do to a team defensively. My dad was a HUGE zone guy..Me, not so much..I think that zones expose weaknesses in a team's ability to actually defend. On the high school level, trapping zones thrown in every now and then are good to stymie a team offensively and get them off of their rhythm, but like any other zone, if you stay in it long enough, they will adapt to it, and its no longer effective. Its hard to adapt to tough man defense..If you can disrupt an offense playing man, you've done something! That means you are guarding your B---S off!  ;D ;D...Side note: You DO NOT have to have athletes to play man, contrary to what some may think.  As a coach you have to be able to teach more "team" man concepts, which emphasizes help principles...But thats another conversation for another day.. ;)
[/quote]
Dickie- Don't help principles imply that some sort of "zone" is, in effect, being used?  As for "staying in it long enough" would that statement not apply to any type of defense?
[/quote]
[size=12pt][/size][color=red][color=red][size=12pt][/size][/color][color=black]You can NEVER really adapt to a solid MAN defense[/color]...[/color]You can make some adjustments, meaning a ball screen or back pick here or there, but as far as adapting to a good one, not really...The key word in my statement about zone was EMPHASIZING....Placing EMPHASIS on help principles... ::) ::)...Stevenash, this is the WRONG area to challenge me, my friend... 8)
[/quote]

If what you say is true (you can NEVER really adapt) then how does anybody ever score on a solid man to man defense?  You must also then explain to me why Syracuse is still in the tourney.  After all, they have encountered some very talented and smart oppositions along the way.  By the way Dickie, you may think I shouldnt challenge you in this area but I have no problem doing so.  There are few, if any, absolutes in these types of discussions and I have access to some pretty decent minds regarding the game.
[/quote]
Which is why I said players and teams can ADJUST...If you are being harrassed constatanly by a great man defense, you don't ever really adapt to that kind of pressure...You adjust...Against zones you can adapt by finding "holes" or gaps in the zone...There is no perfect defense which will hold a team scoreless, but tough man defense sure does make it hard to get what you want.. ;)

[stevenash]

There does not appear to be a lot of holes/gaps in the Syracuse zone.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1390817" timestamp="1364929648"]

There does not appear to be a lot of holes/gaps in the Syracuse zone.
[/quote]

Of course there is.  Its sometimes just hard to see with all of that length they have! Syracuse believes in that zone and they live and die by it. Which means they may play it a little better than most teams that use it as a secondary defense.

[Basketball IQ]

Depends on the opponent huh? Various types of defenses are practiced in the hopes that the coach will implement whichever one increases his chance of beating that particular opponent. Personally I would play zone against any team in the Golden Triangle (as they are less than proficient at shooting from the outside) and force them to do what they're not comfortable doing which is stroking the jumper. The average high school team is fortunate if they have one 40%'er from the floor so coaching a squad up with the mentality of allowing your opponent one shot only, procuring the rebound and fast breaking out of the zone is a viable game plan in this day and age where player's are enamored with the cross-over versus the catch and shoot.....

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1390819" timestamp="1364930294"]
[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=110733.msg1390817#msg1390817 date=1364929648]

There does not appear to be a lot of holes/gaps in the Syracuse zone.
[/quote]

Of course there is.  Its sometimes just hard to see with all of that length they have! Syracuse believes in that zone and they live and die by it. Which means they may play it a little better than most teams that use it as a secondary defense.
[/quote]

Well, if there is, then why hasnt it been exploited and why is Syracuse still playing?

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1390821" timestamp="1364930704"]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=110733.msg1390819#msg1390819 date=1364930294]
[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=110733.msg1390817#msg1390817 date=1364929648]

There does not appear to be a lot of holes/gaps in the Syracuse zone.
[/quote]

Of course there is.  Its sometimes just hard to see with all of that length they have! Syracuse believes in that zone and they live and die by it. Which means they may play it a little better than most teams that use it as a secondary defense.
[/quote]

Well, if there is, then why hasnt it been exploited and why is Syracuse still playing?
[/quote] Cause their zone is the equal of Louisville's Press: [b]You simply cant beat it throughout the duration of the game[/b] which is why i think those two will meet for the National Title.

[stevenash]

[quote name="Mr. Buddy Garrity" post="1390823" timestamp="1364931453"]
[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=110733.msg1390821#msg1390821 date=1364930704]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=110733.msg1390819#msg1390819 date=1364930294]
[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=110733.msg1390817#msg1390817 date=1364929648]

There does not appear to be a lot of holes/gaps in the Syracuse zone.
[/quote]

Of course there is.  Its sometimes just hard to see with all of that length they have! Syracuse believes in that zone and they live and die by it. Which means they may play it a little better than most teams that use it as a secondary defense.
[/quote]

Well, if there is, then why hasnt it been exploited and why is Syracuse still playing?
[/quote] Cause their zone is the equal of Louisville's Press: [b]You simply cant beat it throughout the duration of the game[/b] which is why i think those two will meet for the National Title.
[/quote]

Sure would be an interesting final.

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="Basketball IQ" post="1390820" timestamp="1364930507"]
Depends on the opponent huh? Various types of defenses are practiced in the hopes that the coach will implement whichever one increases his chance of beating that particular opponent. Personally I would play zone against any team in the Golden Triangle (as they are less than proficient at shooting from the outside) and force them to do what they're not comfortable doing which is stroking the jumper. The average high school team is fortunate if they have one 40%'er from the floor so coaching a squad up with the mentality of allowing your opponent one shot only, procuring the rebound and fast breaking out of the zone is a viable game plan in this day and age where player's are enamored with the cross-over versus the catch and shoot.....
[/quote]In high school, I'll take a [s]cross-over [/s] ...errr create your own shot AND a catch and shoot player any day than a catch & shoot (only)player in high school. Most catch & shoot kids can't shoot with a man closing in fast in their space. Kids are more athletic and quicker these days and can guard catch and shoot players.

[stevenash]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1390832" timestamp="1364934157"]
[quote author=Basketball IQ link=topic=110733.msg1390820#msg1390820 date=1364930507]
Depends on the opponent huh? Various types of defenses are practiced in the hopes that the coach will implement whichever one increases his chance of beating that particular opponent. Personally I would play zone against any team in the Golden Triangle (as they are less than proficient at shooting from the outside) and force them to do what they're not comfortable doing which is stroking the jumper. The average high school team is fortunate if they have one 40%'er from the floor so coaching a squad up with the mentality of allowing your opponent one shot only, procuring the rebound and fast breaking out of the zone is a viable game plan in this day and age where player's are enamored with the cross-over versus the catch and shoot.....
[/quote]In high school, I'll take a [s]cross-over [/s] ...errr create your own shot AND a catch and shoot player any day than a catch & shoot (only)player in high school. Most catch & shoot kids can't shoot with a man closing in fast in their space. Kids are more athletic and quicker these days and can guard catch and shoot players.
[/quote]

Dove, If I am the catch and shoot player and you are the quick athletic guy who is closing on me very quickly, I am going to guess a small head fake may create an opening for the slowest of the slow.

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1390836" timestamp="1364935778"]
[quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=110733.msg1390832#msg1390832 date=1364934157]
[quote author=Basketball IQ link=topic=110733.msg1390820#msg1390820 date=1364930507]
Depends on the opponent huh? Various types of defenses are practiced in the hopes that the coach will implement whichever one increases his chance of beating that particular opponent. Personally I would play zone against any team in the Golden Triangle (as they are less than proficient at shooting from the outside) and force them to do what they're not comfortable doing which is stroking the jumper. The average high school team is fortunate if they have one 40%'er from the floor so coaching a squad up with the mentality of allowing your opponent one shot only, procuring the rebound and fast breaking out of the zone is a viable game plan in this day and age where player's are enamored with the cross-over versus the catch and shoot.....
[/quote]In high school, I'll take a [s]cross-over [/s] ...errr create your own shot AND a catch and shoot player any day than a catch & shoot (only)player in high school. Most catch & shoot kids can't shoot with a man closing in fast in their space. Kids are more athletic and quicker these days and can guard catch and shoot players.
[/quote]

Dove, If I am the catch and shoot player and you are the quick athletic guy who is closing on me very quickly, I am going to guess a small head fake may create an opening for the slowest of the slow.
[/quote]Nope!!!  But I could prove my point to you in a gym just like I had to do for another area coach who thought his player was going to light up the score board  ::) against a very athletic AND smart players. Deadly combination. Ask Duke!!

[stevenash]

Whatever you say.  I am still of the opinion that if you are running at me full speed and I move in the opposite direction (properly timed) you wont be so fast that I don't have a brief opening.  Ray Allen makes a pretty good living without the crossover/create his own shot.  If what you say is 100% accurate, then Larry Bird should have never scored.

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1390853" timestamp="1364940916"]
Whatever you say.  I am still of the opinion that if you are running at me full speed and I move in the opposite direction (properly timed) you wont be so fast that I don't have a brief opening.  Ray Allen makes a pretty good living without the crossover/create his own shot.  If what you say is 100% accurate, then Larry Bird should have never scored.
[/quote]Nash, you are leaving out a valuable equation to your solution. And I totally agree with you on your examples. But you continually want to compare players who were or are very dedicated to their craft. Not many high schoolers are dedicated to this craft. So with that being said, I still stand by by original statement. They don't work out 'adjusting their game."  ;)

[stevenash]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1390875" timestamp="1364945845"]
[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=110733.msg1390853#msg1390853 date=1364940916]
Whatever you say.  I am still of the opinion that if you are running at me full speed and I move in the opposite direction (properly timed) you wont be so fast that I don't have a brief opening.  Ray Allen makes a pretty good living without the crossover/create his own shot.  If what you say is 100% accurate, then Larry Bird should have never scored.
[/quote]Nash, you are leaving out a valuable equation to your solution. And I totally agree with you on your examples. But you continually want to compare players who were or are very dedicated to their craft. Not many high schoolers are dedicated to this craft. So with that being said, I still stand by by original statement. They don't work out 'adjusting their game."  ;)
[/quote]

You also are talking about dedicated crossover experts so I use dedicated non crossover experts for comparisons sake.  So if we compare the not so dedicated catch and shooter with the not so dedicated fast/quick athlete, I still believe the "opportunities" are comparable.  Now if you want to compare the dedicated and smart crossover guy with the non dedicated catch and shoot guy, I have no disagreement with your contention.

[ozensfinest]

I believe that coaches well at least bouttee ran zone to help his players out with fatigue, that way most of their energy could be used on the offensive side of the ball instead of on defense. Just my theory

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="ozensfinest" post="1391115" timestamp="1365014061"]
I believe that coaches well at least bouttee ran zone to help his players out with fatigue, that way most of their energy could be used on the offensive side of the ball instead of on defense. Just my theory
[/quote]
Not really. He zoned a lot of times just to give the other team a different look. Sometimes to throw them off, and sometimes to make the opposing coach simply have to make an adjustment...It was very situational.

[AggiesAreWe]

[quote name="ozensfinest" post="1391115" timestamp="1365014061"]
I believe that coaches well at least bouttee ran zone to help his players out with fatigue, that way most of their energy could be used on the offensive side of the ball instead of on defense. Just my theory
[/quote]


I disagree.

If you look at the scores of the games Boutte coached in, you would see that for the most part the games were low scoring games. Andre stressed defense more than offense.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="AggiesAreWe" post="1391119" timestamp="1365014516"]
[quote author=ozensfinest link=topic=110733.msg1391115#msg1391115 date=1365014061]
I believe that coaches well at least bouttee ran zone to help his players out with fatigue, that way most of their energy could be used on the offensive side of the ball instead of on defense. Just my theory
[/quote]


I disagree.

If you look at the scores of the games Boutte coached in, you would see that for the most part the games were low scoring games. Andre stressed defense more than offense.
[/quote]
Absolutely....100% correct... ;)

[RuffRaider]

Does anyone still believe the axiom that a good zone will look like man-2-man and a good man-2-man will look like a zone?