If you were a umpire what would your call be on this play?

[MrUmp1]

I can not make a call from a picture. If it was a steal, the runner does not have to slide but he can not create malicious contact. Malicious contact is an Umpire judgement call. I have had plays where a runner came in standing up at home, did not try to run over the catcher but when the tag was applied the ball popped out. First argument you hear is that the runner had to slide. There is no rule in NFHS rules that states a runner has to slide. I have ask the coach do you think the runner should be ejected for malicious contact on your catcher, and most of the time they say no he just should have made an effort to slide. If no malicious contact then we have nothing but a dropped ball on the tag out. Once again I can not make a call based on a picture you have to see the whole play with proper angles to make a call.

[teeboan]

I was talking to the umpire that made this call at our meeting last night. He said the throw from home was wide right and brought the SS to the 1st base side of 2nd. The contact happened 8 to 10 feet before 2nd base. You can't expect a kid to slide that far away because of a bad throw. Like we say D, "somtimes train wrecks happen". It was no different than a throw from SS pulling 1b off the bag towards home and him having a collision with the batter/runner coming up the line.

[hawkeye07]

Reading from the nfhs rule book, an umpire from shared this with me.
He claims that runner should be out due to numerous rules. "Take your pick" to quote him. (thirty years experience in Texas High School Baseball) I did not tell him that umpires were commenting here.  You know they wil never overrule one another when one is wrong.  And we can all see this play is not 10 feet up the line.

Article 2 Any runner is out when he:

2B. does not legally slide and causes illegal contact (he could be out by that rule) and/or illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play (he could be out by that rule)

2C. does not legally attempt to avoid a fielder in the immediate act of making a play on him. (he could be out by that rule)

[rangers12]

This play was called against us this year. Runner ran into a defensive player while he was attempting to catch the ball. Defensive player is in the baserunners lane, but the runner has to make an attempt to avoid collision since the defensive player is defensless in the act of catching teh ball. Runner is out!

[MoFo]

I disagree, just like stated earlier if the first baseman is pulled into the path of the runner on an arrant throw and there is contact we call it a train wreck. If the fielder holds on to the ball and the throw beats the runner he is out, if not he is safe. No call on the collision unless, in the ump's judgement, the runner made malicious contact. Same situation can happen at ANY base. If the fielder takes a sudden leap into the runners path to catch a ball you can not expect the runner to disappear or turn on a dime to avoid the contact.

[MoFo]

This is a paragraph out of a handout called the "Umpires Helper"
[i]Sometimes when the runner and fielder collide, no penalty should be applied. The umpire must judge whether someone's rights were violated.[color=yellow] [b]This applies mainly to plays where the throw[/b] [b]and the runner are arriving at the same time. [color=yellow][/b][b]There is no such thing as a must slide rule[/b][/color].  When a runner collides with a fielder attempting to field a batted ball, he should be called out in almost all cases. If the runner collides with a fielder attempting to catch a throw, the umpire must first decide if the collision was intentional, then decide if the act interfered with, impeded, hindered or confused the fielder. If the runner is legally in the base path and simply running the bases when a collision occurs, he is not out. If he deviates from his path and/or intentionally interferes, or makes malicious contact, he is out. In sliding to a base he must be able to reach out and touch the base with his hand. If he slides into a fielder while more than an arms length from the base it is interference if the fielder is attempting a play. If a runner goes into a base standing up and this act hindered the fielder in an attempt to make a play, it is interference. If he does not slide, he must get out of the fielder's way.[/i]

[hawkeye07]

Mofo use your "umpires helper" and get the call right. You answered it in black and white for us all. 

Quote from your helper. 

If a runner goes into a base standing up and this act hindered the fielder in an attempt to make a play, it is interference. If he does not slide, he must get out of the fielder's way.

Do the right thing like the dad did the other night apologizing to you.

Get the call right.

[MoFo]

You are refrencing a part of the quote that would be used in the case the runner was trying to prevent a double play. The rule clearly states the following

If the runner is legally in the base path and simply running the bases when a collision occurs, he is not out.

Now as I said earlier with this ONE photo it is impossible to determine what is going on, the ump on the field had the luxury of seeing the whole play and this is what he based his call on.

[hawkeye07]

No mention of double play here. Just mentions if he decides not to slide what he must  and must not do.

And he did not avoid contact.  He is out.  This is where a good, hat turned backwards chest bump, might help.

[espn2]

[quote name="MoFo" post="1395678" timestamp="1366298970"]
This is a paragraph out of a handout called the "Umpires Helper"
[i]Sometimes when the runner and fielder collide, no penalty should be applied. The umpire must judge whether someone's rights were violated.[color=yellow] [b]This applies mainly to plays where the throw[/b] [b]and the runner are arriving at the same time. [color=yellow][/b][b]There is no such thing as a must slide rule[/b][/color].  When a runner collides with a fielder attempting to field a batted ball, he should be called out in almost all cases. If the runner collides with a fielder attempting to catch a throw, the umpire must first decide if the collision was intentional, then decide if the act interfered with, impeded, hindered or confused the fielder. If the runner is legally in the base path and simply running the bases when a collision occurs, he is not out. If he deviates from his path and/or intentionally interferes, or makes malicious contact, he is out. In sliding to a base he must be able to reach out and touch the base with his hand. If he slides into a fielder while more than an arms length from the base it is interference if the fielder is attempting a play. If a runner goes into a base standing up and this act hindered the fielder in an attempt to make a play, it is interference. If he does not slide, he must get out of the fielder's way.[/i]
[/quote]

If he does not slide he has to avoid contact, which by this picture, there is enough evidence to show that was not the case.  He did not slide and did not avoid contact. Runner is out.

[MoFo]

Call it like you see it Hawk. I stand with not enough info in this picture to make a call.

[teeboan]

I'm with you Mofo..and the man that made the call didn't have 2 days to research and stare at a bad picture. He had about 3 seconds.

[espn2]

That is understandable.  Many an umpire has supported his fellow umpire and not over turned a bad call as to not make him look bad.  We would not expect anything different from you. ( iam assuming you are an umpire since you were at the meeting the other night).

[CATS80]

[quote name="espn2" post="1395704" timestamp="1366302885"]
That is understandable.  Many an umpire has supported his fellow umpire and not over turned a bad call as to not make him look bad.  We would not expect anything different from you. ( iam assuming you are an umpire since you were at the meeting the other night).
[/quote]Hmmm....  If im reading this correctly. Among many umpires they would allow a bad call to be made just so the other one did not look bad instead of getting the call correct in an important game. Because to the boys playing they are all important . I thought the umps job would be to make the correct call no mater what. Who cares if they look bad. The games not about them. Its about calling the right call for the baseball game being played.  I would hope that this is not how they really look at it.

[teeboan]

No you are not reading it correctly. The umpire that made the call, made the correct call. Yes every game is important to us also. That's why we do it. It certainly isn't for the gas money we get paid or  the adoration we get from the stands. I'm done wih it, moving on!

[rounder17]

You guys are right, they got it wrong. Y'all now will be awarded with the victory.  Call the UIL and tell them to change the outcome of the game.

[MoFo]

First off who said it was a bad call?? I said you can not make the call by this one picture. The ump on the field made his call by watching a play develop.  But since you guys can make a call by one picture who is at fault in this wreck?

[rangers12]

clearly the blue van!!!!!

[MoFo]

;D :D :)

[MoFo]

or the blonde female driver??????
8) 8) 8)

[callumlikeiseeum]

You are correct Mo. There is not enough information in your car wreck to tell whose fault it is.

BUT! There is however enough evidence in the baseball picture to make a call.

Exhibit 1 Can you tell if the runner slid from the picture? Yes
The runner clearly did not slide.

Exhibit 2 Can you tell if the runner made contact with the fielder? Yes
The runner clearly did not avoid contact.

Exhibit 3 is given in the description of the play (if accurate).  This play was said to include a catch by the fielder and a dislodging of the ball by the runner.

Exhibit 4
If a runner goes into a base standing up and this act hindered the fielder in an attempt to make a play, it is interference. If he does not slide, he must get out of the fielder's way. Excerpt from the umpires helper book.
This play has nothing to do with contact made during a slide.  It has everything to do with contact made with out a slide.

If the umpire knew the rules then the three seconds you say he had to make the call was plenty of time.  Also the ones that are on here making incorrect statements regarding the play have had more than three seconds to make a decision and they still can't get it right.

[callumlikeiseeum]

Also to txdragon the runners job is not to break up the double play any longer.  That job went away with the slide straight into the bag (on force play) rule implementation.

If you slide anywhere other than straight into the bad and make contact with the defensive player on a force out (such as double play attempt), you are out and the runner at first is out.  Thus the days of "breaking up two" are over unless middle infielders go into the "straight into the bag" sliding area which rarley happens because they know either side of that area is safe zone.

[Txdragon]

Just curious if this applies....play was not hindered because fielder caught ball, runner made contact and my assumption if the fielder held on to the ball the runner would have been out. Fielder actually made the play (so he wasn't hindered) just had the ball popped loose by the runner (so then the only question becomes whether or not it was malicious). Is this right?

So, from what i am hearing had the infielder tried to throw to first if it had been a double play the ruling would then have been out because he was hindered in his throw?

[MoFo]

So callum with this statement you are saying that if a first baseman in the act of catching an off line throw to first is pulled into the runners line to the base then it is the runner's responsibility to slide into first, or to just give up to avoid contact with the fielder who has stepped into his line???? That is proposterous.....in this instance you have 2 kids trying to make a play that run into each other.
IF you have read the explanation this is a runner stealing second and a short stop stepping into his line attempting to catch the ball the same scenario as above except it happens at second base.

I still stand FIRM behind my decision that in the 1 photo there is not enough info to make a call.

[thegoose]

MOFO
If he is brought into the base line and it is a bang bang play he does not have to slide he doesnt have time.  However in the picture above the runner does not appear to be in the baseline.  He is inside the bag.  If a first baseman caught a ball in the baseline before the runner gets there and the runner tried to knock the ball out is he still safe?  NO!!!!!    If a first baseman is attempting to catch the ball on the inside of the bag and the runner runs inside to try to get in the way of the throw is he safe?  NO!!!!