Murder or Self-Defense?

[bullets13]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/teen-shot-killed-mans-garage-germany-23500791

 

As most of you know, I'm big on gun rights, and our rights to protect ourselves, others, our property, etc. That being said, my first reaction here is this guy is going to be convicted, and probably rightfully so.

 

For those of you who haven't seen this, a man's garage had been broken into a couple of times, and he was pissed.  So for multiple nights in a row he set up a trap for a burglar.  He left his garage door cracked, with a purse visible inside the garage (not sure if you needed a flashlight to see it or not, but it was out in a way meant to draw in a possible thief).  He and his wife set up a baby monitor with a video feed and some sort of motion sensors.  After a couple of nights, a couple of teens took the bait, and after seeing them on the camera, the man ran around the house from the outside, and without any warning shot four times into the pitch-black garage, killing one of the teens.  He's now claiming he was "standing his ground".  I don't see that defense working in this case, but look forward to TVC's take on it.  It's also worth noting that at least one witness claims to have heard the man say he'd stayed up three nights in a row with his shotgun to "shoot a kid."

[Bigdog]

Sounds like murder.

[77]

Yep probably didnt need to shoot them but he did nothing different than police do setting up a sting on criminals! jmo

[bullets13]

Yep probably didnt need to shoot them but he did nothing different than police do setting up a sting on criminals! jmo

 

i agree that it's similar.  that being said: A) this guy is not the police  B) the police don't set up stings and then shoot people without warning when they're caught in them. 

[Amphibious Rodent]

He may be convicted, but the police didn't help him. What do you do. Let them continue go rob you, hope the police catch them. They could also have been armed. Maybe they would have graduated into a higher crime. I may have done the same. Warning to all!!! Do not break into the Rodante's house, he will shoot you multiple times!!!

[77]

i agree that it's similar.  that being said: A) this guy is not the police  B) the police don't set up stings and then shoot people without warning when they're caught in them. 

good point!

[bullets13]

What would happen if I went and parked my car on a busy street with the keys in the ignition and money on the seat, hid in the bushes, and then jumped out and shot the first person who tried to steal the car. Kinda feels the same here. Yes, they're stealing your property, but you're going out of your way to tempt them to do so. Kind of like sitting over a corn feeder, but for criminals.

[Amphibious Rodent]

What would happen if I went and parked my car on a busy street with the keys in the ignition and money on the seat, hid in the bushes, and then jumped out and shot the first person who tried to steal the car. Kinda feels the same here. Yes, they're stealing your property, but you're going out of your way to tempt them to do so. Kind of like sitting over a corn feeder, but for criminals.

Don't try to make me feel guilty about shooting all those deer!!

[tvc184]

It is clearly murder and not a lot of ambiguity. The man was rightfully convicted and sentenced to life. 

 

Even under TX law there would likely be the same outcome. The only thing that might help him would be if he was out in the sticks and some jury decided on jury nullification because they were glad that two criminals were dead. 

[Amphibious Rodent]

It is clearly murder and not a lot of ambiguity. The man was rightfully convicted and sentenced to life. 
 
Even under TX law there would likely be the same outcome. The only thing that might help him would be if he was out in the sticks and some jury decided on jury nullification because they were glad that two criminals were dead.

Glad I live in the sticks.

[77]

Yep probably should have used a baseball bat and just broke a few bones!

[tvc184]

He may be convicted, but the police didn't help him. What do you do. Let them continue go rob you, hope the police catch them. They could also have been armed. Maybe they would have graduated into a higher crime. I may have done the same. Warning to all!!! Do not break into the Rodante's house, he will shoot you multiple times!!!

 

What do you do? You hold them for the police. At a bare minimum, after they were shot and down they were no threat and he put admitted kill shots into them. He simply wanted to play executioner and will hopefully pay with the rest of his life. 

 

Killing a person that is a threat is legal (in most scenarios). Killing because you are angry is murder. 

[tvc184]

Glad I live in the sticks.

 

That is a fairly big gamble but whatever floats your boat. He went by the comical old saying of judged by 12 and will now serve the rest of his natural life in prison, probably being somebody's Bubba. 

[Amphibious Rodent]

I bet he don't do very much prison time if any. Time will tell not our opinion

[baddog]

Tvc, isn't it against the law to "bait" or booby trap (trip wires to set of firearms)? Does this situation command entrapment even though he is not law enforcement? The murder charge is obvious to me, just wondering how far citizens can go enticing crime.

[bullets13]

Don't try to make me feel guilty about shooting all those deer!!

I'm a hunter too, but I don't think Id get away with running a feeder in February, hiding by it, and then claiming I had to shoot a deer because it was coming right at me... ;)

[bullets13]

TVC, this is actually a different case that just popped up. The guy left a garage door open and a purse out in there, with a baby monitor camera on inside. He apparently did it several Nights in a row, waiting for someone to come in for the easy score he'd laid out. When he saw someone go in on the monitor, he ran around the house and shot indiscriminately into the garage without warning, killing the kid inside.

[bullets13]

If someone breaks into my house, there's a good chance they're going to get shot if I'm home. I just have trouble with the idea of leaving something of value out with the intent to tempt someone into taking it, at which point you shoot and kill them.

[tvc184]

Tvc, isn't it against the law to "bait" or booby trap (trip wires to set of firearms)? Does this situation command entrapment even though he is not law enforcement? The murder charge is obvious to me, just wondering how far citizens can go enticing crime.

 

 

I have never seen anything about "baiting" but you cannot set a booby trap that causes a substantial risk of death or serious injury and the person who set the trap had to have a justification for protecting property just as if it was the actual owner on the scene. 

[tvc184]

TVC, this is actually a different case that just popped up. The guy left a garage door open and a purse out in there, with a baby monitor camera on inside. He apparently did it several Nights in a row, waiting for someone to come in for the easy score he'd laid out. When he saw someone go in on the monitor, he ran around the house and shot indiscriminately into the garage without warning, killing the kid inside.

 

I am not sure where the baiting comes into play but it is still likely murder, according to what the state law says where it happened. 

 

The problem is with the words "reasonable" or "reasonably". Those words appear 52 times in TX Chapter 9 of the Penal Code that deals in self defense. TX is fairly open on the ability to use force or deadly force when needed and reasonable. How reasonable is it for a guy to say that he is in fear of his life, yet entices a person to come into his home? It seems a ludicrous claim of reasonable fear when you are essentially inviting the person in. 

[Big girl]

What would happen if I went and parked my car on a busy street with the keys in the ignition and money on the seat, hid in the bushes, and then jumped out and shot the first person who tried to steal the car. Kinda feels the same here. Yes, they're stealing your property, but you're going out of your way to tempt them to do so. Kind of like sitting over a corn feeder, but for criminals.

lol, you made a very logical point.

[Big girl]

i agree that it's similar. that being said: A) this guy is not the police B) the police don't set up stings and then shoot people without warning when they're caught in them.

roflmbo