Talent To Win?

[smitty]

A recent poster answered a question about why Todd Dodge wasn't winning at Marble Falls.  The answer was, "he didn't have the talent to win."  So -- here's the question:  If a coach does not have the talent, can he not win?  Or, can a good coach win with anything?  Thoughts...

[RaiderRed30]

A good coach can create talent. Does that mean he will win? Not always just like a bad coach with lots of talent will win sometimes. I think once a team makes the playoffs that is where the difference in coaching will make all the difference. Small schools may be the best example of a team with less talent being able to win because a good coach knows what works to get the most out of his team on a yearly basis.

[Brubaker]

Smitty, why was Nederland's defense so dominant the past 3-4 years, but open to so much criticism the 3-4 years prior??? This is high school football, you roll with the best you got, sometimes you have more to work with than others. There's only so much you can do to overcome talent deficiency... even for someone like Todd Dodge. Ask Nick Saban if he would go coach at Vanderbilt and do what he's done at Alabama.

[oldschool2]

Good coaches will do more than what could've been done. But even good coaches can't overcome inferior talent.

Anybody that doesn't think coaching matters..
Just look at what Larry Brown did with SMU this year. On that same token.. He could not have won the Big10 with SMU. Does that mean he's not as good a coach as any Big10 coach? Nope. SMU doesn't have the talent.

[Amphibious Rodent]

Can't compare high school football to college. If a good coach in high school, with good assistant coaches, fans and AD behind him. He will develop talent. And he will win. Maybe not every year, but the majority of time. If Saban went to Vandy , you can bet your boots the team would improve dramatically, year end and year out. He would get recruits, and he is evidently a good coach.

Look lets take Newton for example. There nothing in the water down there. I've tasted it. They have been winning for 40 years, the athletes are good because great coaching, they have great fan base, and support from the school system. The kids are strong, most of them where not born that way. They where developed through the system. And momma and daddy and uncles and auntie supports the coaching staff .

Most likely every school that wins consistently has similar characteristics.

[oldschool2]

So just to clarify...

If Coach Barbay would've been at say ... Warren for that same exact tenure. With the same support...and same coaches... they would've won "consistently"?

[Amphibious Rodent]

So just to clarify...
If Coach Barbay would've been at say ... Warren for that same exact tenure. With the same support...and same coaches... they would've won "consistently"?

similar results, providing all parties involved bought into the system, supported him and was involved

[JRidge]

Good coaches can improve programs but clearly must have talent to reach certain levels of winning. Now on some occasions teams without a whole lot of talent can buy into a coach, giving their all and achieving great things. If talent wasn't important, then most coaches wouldn't worry about receiving players who have it. Good post though and good observations. JMO

[Amphibious Rodent]

Check the history. Think Barbay arrived in 69, by the end of the 71 season, it was on. Newton didn't win before. Think they went to playoffs twice in the 50's.

[football]

You really need to look at the athletes!!!! You can not win the Kentucky Derby with a jackass!  Show me one coach that has won consistently with little talent on the football field.  The best ATHLETES do not always win, but the best football players usually do.

And yes, that usually has a lot to do with the coach.  

[Amphibious Rodent]

Good coaches can improve programs but clearly must have talent to reach certain levels of winning. Now on some occasions teams without a whole lot of talent can buy into a coach, giving their all and achieving great things. If talent wasn't important, then most coaches wouldn't worry about receiving players who have it. Good post though and good observations. JMO

Develop your players. Starting from junior high. Have your junior coaches teach basics. Varsity head coach overseas program. Don't teach things to complex to young kids. Stay the course as per varsity coaches program. Jr. High coach will move up to varsity. Develop strength which develops speed and confidence. Discipline, teach kids to not try to be a star, play their position, have faith and confidence in fellow players to do the same.

[Amphibious Rodent]

You'll have a few natural athletes, develope the rest.

[Amphibious Rodent]

Don't make excuses for losing. Find a way to win. Know the game. Sell yourself, emulate what winning programs do. Learn from the best

[football]

One thing we are all missing: For the most part when we talk about the two most successful programs in the area (Newton and WOS),  No One else has that support.  By that I mean if a kid tries to quit the football team, they are not only ostracized in the community but the vast majority of them would be in serious trouble at home.  How many players would quit at other schools because of the Mustang mile, bleachers at the end of a two a day practice, etc.?

[oldschool2]

Develop your players. Starting from junior high. Have your junior coaches teach basics. Varsity head coach overseas program. Don't teach things to complex to young kids. Stay the course as per varsity coaches program. Jr. High coach will move up to varsity. Develop strength which develops speed and confidence. Discipline, teach kids to not try to be a star, play their position, have faith and confidence in fellow players to do the same.

You know what...you're exactly right. I didn't think about this at all. In fact...you should write a book about this theory. You've got the secret! I bet there aren't any coaches in the state that are doing this.

What was I thinking?... It's not about athletes and players at all. All you have to do is follow the winning formula you just stated.

Boy I hope nobody else in the state finds out what Newton and West Orange Stark has been up to...

[Amphibious Rodent]

You know what...you're exactly right. I didn't think about this at all. In fact...you should write a book about this theory. You've got the secret! I bet there aren't any coaches in the state that are doing this.
What was I thinking?... It's not about athletes and players at all. All you have to do is follow the winning formula you just stated.
Boy I hope nobody else in the state finds out what Newton and West Orange Stark has been up to...

I can't believe that a school like Warren doesn't have good athletes. I haven't researched the rest of their athletic programs. But I know that every athletic program in Newton does not succeed. Why not? Because they put no importance on these programs. Not the fact that they don't have good athletes. Small school, not enough to go around that's for sure. Some schools suck st football but consistently excel at other sports. If they put as much into football as they do the sports they Excel at they would succeed, however it may take away from the sport that they already excel at

[oldschool2]

First of all...What sports do Warren excel in that aren't football...?

2nd... You mean Newton isn't good at baseball?.. That requires a certain skill. Or basketball?...that requires a certain skill. But they're good every year in football...and track...which require pretty much only require to be extremely athletic. (I know more goes into football than that)

Now I can't believe that at all...

[Amphibious Rodent]

First of all...What sports do Warren excel in that aren't football...?
2nd... You mean Newton isn't good at baseball?.. That requires a certain skill. Or basketball?...that requires a certain skill. But they're good every year in football...and track...which require pretty much only require to be extremely athletic. (I know more goes into football than that)
Now I can't believe that at all...

Baseball is almost certainly learned skills and if your great at track and football you can play baseball, if you concentrate on it. But they don't.

[oldschool2]

Baseball is almost certainly learned skills and if your great at track and football you can play baseball, if you concentrate on it. But they don't.

So you could take any "great track and football" high school player and put them in front of an 80+ mph fastball and they would be fine?...

By the way...there isn't a single sport in Warren that compares to Newton football. Not even baseball.

This conversation is kind of silly so I'm out.

[no-look]

Tradition in certain sports plays a role in winning. Some schools have a "main" sport and the other sports doesn't matter so much.  But for a coach to win he has to have some athletes. If you line up with another team and they are bigger, stronger and faster than you....you can guess the outcome...especially in football..

[mytwocents-28]

Average talent + hard work > great talent + no wok ethic.

Period!

So no you do not need talent to succeed. It helps but you can do it without it.

[Aces_Full]

Bottom line is you need talent.  It wasn't a coincidence that Vidor made it's deepest playoff run at the same time as their best football player, probably in program history, came through.  You know Mr. Quirante, winner of both Willie Ray Smith awards.  Coach Mathews was the same coach that season as he was last season.  Difference was talent.  I understand what you say about working hard and building from the lower levels, but you still need a certain level of talent to be successful. 

[UGK]

Bottom line is you need talent. It wasn't a coincidence that Vidor made it's deepest playoff run at the same time as their best football player, probably in program history, came through. You know Mr. Quirante, winner of both Willie Ray Smith awards. Coach Mathews was the same coach that season as he was last season. Difference was talent. I understand what you say about working hard and building from the lower levels, but you still need a certain level of talent to be successful.

+1

[tigerheart]

A great coach can take average talent and make them very good. A great coach can take great talent and make them excellent.

A bad coach can take average talent and be below average. A bad coach can take great talent and make them average.

[87JAG]

A good coach can make average talent look very good, but it will only take you so far. You are not seeing average teams playing for state championships in any sport.

 

We all know that a bad coach with great talent in this area will end up reading the want ads.