BigGirl And The Constitution...

[smitty]

This is for BigGirl:  You think that more government is the answer to whatever problem that comes up.  But, let me ask you this:  Have you ever read the Constitution?  In school, were you ever taught the Constitution?    I'm going to guess not on both accounts. 

So -- go look at the 10th Amendment to the Constitution and tell us what you find.  If you are really concerned, read the whole thing and see just how much the government now is infringing on individual liberties.  When you read it, you'll see that's what the Constitution is all about -- individual freedoms, NOT government freedoms!  And look around, is this what you see now?!

PS -- Did they teach you in school that there were NO INCOME TAXES when the Constitution was written?  WHY?  Because the founding fathers knew the EVIL of taxes!!  If you are really, really interested, you can go read the Federalist Papers and find out exactly what the founding father's were actually thinking...

[stevenash]

She is going to tell you that the President taught Consitutional law and, resultantly, knows what is acceptable and what isnt.

[NorthoftheBorder]

She is going to tell you that the President taught Consitutional law and, resultantly, knows what is acceptable and what isnt.

She will wrongly tell you that!!

[stevenash]

We will also hear how the constitution is misinterpreted by those at Fox News.

[tvc184]

This is for BigGirl:  You think that more government is the answer to whatever problem that comes up.  But, let me ask you this:  Have you ever read the Constitution?  In school, were you ever taught the Constitution?    I'm going to guess not on both accounts. 

So -- go look at the 10th Amendment to the Constitution and tell us what you find.  If you are really concerned, read the whole thing and see just how much the government now is infringing on individual liberties.  When you read it, you'll see that's what the Constitution is all about -- individual freedoms, NOT government freedoms!  And look around, is this what you see now?!

PS -- Did they teach you in school that there were NO INCOME TAXES when the Constitution was written?  WHY?  Because the founding fathers knew the EVIL of taxes!!  If you are really, really interested, you can go read the Federalist Papers and find out exactly what the founding father's were actually thinking...

 

That is not exactly true and they did not teach that in my school and I doubt any others. The founding fathers put taxes in the US Constitution in Article I and in fact in Section 2 they allowed income taxes where it says that there are "direct taxes" allowed.

 

The SCOTUS threw out income taxes in 1895 because Section 2 said that all direct taxes collected had to be "apportioned" throughout the states. Apportioned meant that the taxes collected had to be spent back at the same rate they were taken in by the states so if Texas sent in 25% of all income taxes, then 25% had to be spent back in Texas and not sent to where Congress wanted. It had to be "apportioned". 

 

Article I Section 8 clearly says that Congress has the right to levy taxes but does not mention apportionment like Article I Section 2 which only deals with "direct taxes".

 

So taxes were allowed and direct (income) taxes were allowed but with limitations. They were never listed as illegal and in fact the US government cannot run without taxes and everyone including the founding fathers knew that. The problem with taxes is not that they exist but that their spending is abused.

 

Since Article I is the very first section of the US Constitution and in two sections it clearly talks about taxes I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that the founding fathers thought that they were evil and somehow should not exist when the colonies all signed off on it. 

 

The apportionment problem was taken away with the 16th Amendment where it takes the requirement of apportionment away. 

[Big girl]

President obama is not the first president to allow citizens to be taxed? What is your point?

[TxHoops]

President obama is not the first president to allow citizens to be taxed? What is your point?

As a matter of fact, it was Abraham Lincoln who, in effect, created the federal income tax in this country when he signed the Revenue Act in 1861.

[smitty]

That is not exactly true and they did not teach that in my school and I doubt any others. The founding fathers put taxes in the US Constitution in Article I and in fact in Section 2 they allowed income taxes where it says that there are "direct taxes" allowed.

 

The SCOTUS threw out income taxes in 1895 because Section 2 said that all direct taxes collected had to be "apportioned" throughout the states. Apportioned meant that the taxes collected had to be spent back at the same rate they were taken in by the states so if Texas sent in 25% of all income taxes, then 25% had to be spent back in Texas and not sent to where Congress wanted. It had to be "apportioned". 

 

Article I Section 8 clearly says that Congress has the right to levy taxes but does not mention apportionment like Article I Section 2 which only deals with "direct taxes".

 

So taxes were allowed and direct (income) taxes were allowed but with limitations. They were never listed as illegal and in fact the US government cannot run without taxes and everyone including the founding fathers knew that. The problem with taxes is not that they exist but that their spending is abused.

 

Since Article I is the very first section of the US Constitution and in two sections it clearly talks about taxes I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that the founding fathers thought that they were evil and somehow should not exist when the colonies all signed off on it. 

 

The apportionment problem was taken away with the 16th Amendment where it takes the requirement of apportionment away. 

You are right.  What it should have said was "Income Taxes."  The government was funded with tariffs and duties.  NOT on the backs of the American people.  Income taxes were not instituted until 1913.  Again, because they knew the evils of taxing the American people.

[TxHoops]

You are right. What it should have said was "Income Taxes." The government was funded with tariffs and duties. NOT on the backs of the American people. Income taxes were not instituted until 1913. Again, because they knew the evils of taxing the American people.

Not true - http://www.loc.gov/rr/business/hottopic/irs_history.html

[smitty]

Not true - http://www.loc.gov/rr/business/hottopic/irs_history.html

The income tax was never "part" of the Constitution until 1913. 

[smitty]

President obama is not the first president to allow citizens to be taxed? What is your point?

I presume by the lack of an answer you were never taught or read the Constitution?!  But, again, read the 10th Amendment and tell us what you find...

[TxHoops]

The income tax was never "part" of the Constitution until 1913.

I see what you were saying. I think we are splitting hairs. I was pointing out that we did have an income tax prior to that, used primarily to fund the war.

[smitty]

I see what you were saying. I think we are splitting hairs. I was pointing out that we did have an income tax prior to that, used primarily to fund the war.

Point well taken!

[tvc184]

Yes we had an income tax prior to 1913 including at the least, during the Civil War. In 1895 the SCOTUS ruled in a case (Pollock) that income taxes were "direct taxes" which were allowed under Article I, Section 2 of the Constitution. 

 

The problem with these direct taxes (income tax is included in that definition) is the aforementioned apportionment. 

 

Income taxes have always been legal to impose but not legal the way they were imposed and they were collected way before 1913 or even 1895. The Sixteenth Amendment ended those technicalities.