HJ Hawks for Christ Issues?

[bullets13]

I know that eventually this will get out of hand and probably get locked eventually, but we haven't had a good church/school debate in awhile.  What are your thoughts with Hawks For Christ, the threatened lawsuit against them, and HJ's actions that have been taken.

[PN-G bamatex]

I haven't heard about this one yet. Links?

[bullets13]

http://www.12newsnow.com/story/26659594/hjisd-takes-action-in-hawks-for-christ-controversy

[5GallonBucket]

Don't see anything wrong with it.....its not forced upon students and its before the school day starts.  Similar to FCA....

 

where's the compassion your always talking about lefties

[5GallonBucket]

Fight it to the end HAWKS

[PN-G bamatex]

I can't speak to the individual post on Facebook because I haven't seen it.

 

As for an extracurricular group with religious undertones, I don't see how that can be considered unconstitutional. Students aren't required to be part of an extracurricular group. As long as participation is voluntary, I don't see the rationale in banning it.

[tvc184]

If it is a school sponsored webpage, I can see where it is likely a problem.

 

As far as the group, as long as it is not a class or a school sponsored group per se, simply being a teacher does not stop someone from practicing religion as that person sees fit. 

[bullets13]

I was a member of HFC in high school, and it's a great program. I'm all for separation of church and state, but also for the freedom for students to worship. I think in this case their is probably a realistic gripe just in the fact that there's no way a 3rd grader is organizing their events. Which means a teacher is, made all the more obvious by the fact that their FB page has promoted the events. This is in fact unconstitutional as it is then sponsored by the school. The district has probably done the right thing by cutting the FB page, and if they take steps to find a way to ensure that the school is not promoting it, there should not be any more problems.

[mat]

HF is just the next target of an organization with an anti-Christ agenda. I think the superintendent has taken the right actions in taking it off the website but still supporting the student's rights. I don't think a lawsuit will happen nor will the program cease. Could the program be assisted with parents or clergy rather than teachers?

 

It's funny how these things work. The effort to eliminate Christian groups sometimes only makes them stronger.

[NorthoftheBorder]

In the name of freedom and tolerance, anti christian bigots actively work to remove all forms of christianity from public life.  They are actually actively at work inside the christian church trying to change the church by reinterpreting the bible to say that sin is no longer sin!  We are nation of ostrich's with our head in the sand!! 

[bullets13]

In the name of freedom and tolerance, anti christian bigots actively work to remove all forms of christianity from public life.  They are actually actively at work inside the christian church trying to change the church by reinterpreting the bible to say that sin is no longer sin!  We are nation of ostrich's with our head in the sand!!

I hear a lot of these statements, but then every time I see one of these "anti-Christian bigots" actually doing something, at least locally, it's because Christians are violating the constitution. I've never seen any of them trying to stop a church from having church, or even kids being able to worship at school.

Children are always allowed to pray at school, can meet in groups and pray, are provided places to do so, can wear Christian shirts, etc. etc. But a public school, which is a public entity, may not endorse religion or religious activities. And IMO, a 2nd grader is not old enough to make that sort of decision on his own. So while it's great for a kid who's grown up in the church that his school is violating the constitution in the name of Christianity, it's not so great for the child who's parents don't agree with the religion, or God forbid would like for the child to grow a little older and then choose for himself. As long as the school clearly separates itself from promoting the program, then I don't see a problem. As Mat said, perhaps parents could organize it. I personally think a parental permission slip for children that age should be necessary, so that no parent who doesn't want a child to attend has to worry about their child being influenced into going.

But seriously, enough with the "woe is me" victim card from Christians on this issue. the only right being taken away is that of forcing religion onto others, and lets be honest, if China Elementary advertised an Atheist activity on their FB page, the same people who are unhappy now would be even more unhappy, even though it would be the exact same thing.

[CraigS]

It does humor me that atheists know so much about something that does not exist. .. how can you protest nothing. ... That's like being pissed off if someone at school told your kid about the tooth fairy. .. Wouldn't bother me one bit.

I could at least understand if a Muslim group was complaining. ...

[westend1]

It does humor me that atheists know so much about something that does not exist. .. how can you protest nothing. ... That's like being pissed off if someone at school told your kid about the tooth fairy. .. Wouldn't bother me one bit.

I could at least understand if a Muslim group was complaining. ...

Just maybe, some people know a lot about something that doesnt exist because they have spent time researching the matter and then made up their own minds.   It humors me when people are told from a young age what to believe, and they continue to believe even when all evidence goes against that belief.  It's like finding out Santa Claus isn't real, then insisting for your entire life that he is.   Young earthers are a prime example. 

[CraigS]

Not the same at all. .... No one protest Santa clause even after learning he isn't real. .. they either play along and keep pretending. .. or they ignore it all together. ...

so why do atheist fight against God.... But not Santa clause. .. according to you they are both fictional. .. so why not equal resistance..... Well I'll answer that for you. ...

they have ZERO doubt there is no such thing as Santa clause. .. And by denying or disbelieving it has no affect on their life ...past. .. present or future....

on the other hand. ... they choose to pretend there isn't a GOD because they then do not have to be accountable for their actions. ..... But. .. they do in fact believe... you can't fear what doesn't exist. ... therfore why fight against the non existent. ...as the saying goes if you tell a lie often enough you actually start believing it yourself. ... translation. ... they want to feel good about not standing for something or being held accountable. ..so they keep pushing their lies that there isn't a God..

[westend1]

They can't prove there is no god and you can't prove there is.  But somehow, they are liars and you are not.  Do you  not see how silly that sounds?

[NorthoftheBorder]

They can't prove there is no god and you can't prove there is.  But somehow, they are liars and you are not.  Do you  not see how silly that sounds?

Unless anyone has had a supernatural encounter with the risen Lord, no amount of debate, words written on a Messge Board Thread, or words on paper in a book called the Bible will convince anyone who does not want to believe.  All the while that we have "theories" without any imperical evidence about how something was created from nothing. And yet we have a vast universe made of up an unkown  number of galaxies made up of innumerable stars and planets, we have unexplainable events where the natural is miraculously changed/healed right in front of those who do not want  believe and will deny the evidence of a creator because........the creator dares to say "thou shall not"!!!

[NorthoftheBorder]

I hear a lot of these statements, but then every time I see one of these "anti-Christian bigots" actually doing something, at least locally, it's because Christians are violating the constitution. I've never seen any of them trying to stop a church from having church, or even kids being able to worship at school.

Children are always allowed to pray at school, can meet in groups and pray, are provided places to do so, can wear Christian shirts, etc. etc. But a public school, which is a public entity, may not endorse religion or religious activities. And IMO, a 2nd grader is not old enough to make that sort of decision on his own. So while it's great for a kid who's grown up in the church that his school is violating the constitution in the name of Christianity, it's not so great for the child who's parents don't agree with the religion, or God forbid would like for the child to grow a little older and then choose for himself. As long as the school clearly separates itself from promoting the program, then I don't see a problem. As Mat said, perhaps parents could organize it. I personally think a parental permission slip for children that age should be necessary, so that no parent who doesn't want a child to attend has to worry about their child being influenced into going.

But seriously, enough with the "woe is me" victim card from Christians on this issue. the only right being taken away is that of forcing religion onto others, and lets be honest, if China Elementary advertised an Atheist activity on their FB page, the same people who are unhappy now would be even more unhappy, even though it would be the exact same thing.

On the surface your premise sounds ok......except that those who disagree with Christianity do not want to stop at the "line" that you have drawn.  No, if I disagree with same sex marriage and I make wedding cakes and do not want to take on a same sex marriage cake making engagement, then I will be sued.  That is hardly tolerance!!  I am not trying to stop the wedding, just do not want to participate!!  Your argument is what the "tolerance" crowd says, but it is not their actions!!!

[bullets13]

The wedding cake argument is a tough one for me, to be honest, but it's not the same issue. Denying someone.a service because of their sexuality is on one hand, the same as denying service because they're black, which is completely wrong. In this one instance, however, I actually agree with you. Because if you're a Christian who has strong beliefs about homosexuality, I think it's reasonable to deny this particular service, as it goes against the cake maker's religious beliefs. This is similar to a church choosing not to perform a same sex wedding. On the flip side, if a restarant owner denied service to homosexuals, I would have a huge problem with it, as eating is not something that he could claim as a pillar of his religion reserved only for heterosexuals. All that being said, denying someone a service based on religion is completely different than denying someone the right to force religion at a place where the government forces other people to go, or at an event sponsored by a place that is an extension of the government. The government does not have the power to stop individuals from partaking in religion, as this is their right, no matter where they are. But it does have the power to keep the majority, no matter their beliefs, from trampling on the rights of the minority. And when people claim their rights are being violated because they are not allowed to pray over a loud speaker or a school is not allowed to sponsor a Christian event, they're making a claim to rights that they in fact do not have.

[bullets13]

All that said, I think that programs like Hawks For Christ and other similar clubs are valuable and important, and do have a place in schools. It is just important that schools make sure that they are operated in ways that are constitutionally fair to those who are not interested in being involved.

[mat]

I think it's quite the stretch to interpret the organizations post on the district's website as forcing religion on others.

 

As far as the factual existence of God goes, it is true, there is no concrete proof. There are however many examples to support believing in His existence through faith. One of many; I find it really hard to believe that millions (maybe billions) of people for thousands of years have lived their lives and profess transformation and salvation in a folktale. Doesn't sound likely to me.

 

As far as our constitution goes, Christians should really take a step back and think "what does God think about man's interpretation and application of our constitution"? JMO - I don't think he's pleased with areas concerning Him and His word.

[RETIREDFAN1]

. But it does have the power to keep the majority, no matter their beliefs, from trampling on the rights of the minority. 

I would LOVE for you to quote me the part of The Constitution that grants them that authority.........I won't hold my breath because it does not exist.......:P

[5GallonBucket]

IN GOD WE TRUST

[CraigS]

They can't prove there is no god and you can't prove there is.  But somehow, they are liars and you are not.  Do you  not see how silly that sounds?

About as silly as filing a complaint about Santa Clause (non-existent) or God (non existent according to atheist) or any other fairy tale....again I ask...how can one complain about what (in their mind) doesn't even exist.

 

As mentioned before - I could better understand if the Muslims were complaining that we are allowed to worship our God but they are not.

 

So satanism is not a religion - can a school promote that while receiving federal funding?

[bullets13]

I would LOVE for you to quote me the part of The Constitution that grants them that authority.........I won't hold my breath because it does not exist....... :P

although differently worded, it is one of the six purposes of the constitution listed in the preamble.

[bullets13]

About as silly as filing a complaint about Santa Clause (non-existent) or God (non existent according to atheist) or any other fairy tale....again I ask...how can one complain about what (in their mind) doesn't even exist.
 
As mentioned before - I could better understand if the Muslims were complaining that we are allowed to worship our God but they are not.
 
So satanism is not a religion - can a school promote that while receiving federal funding?

what difference does it make? if you don't believe it exists, you still don't want your kid ingrained with it at school, anymore than you would if you were muslim. why do Christians who don't believe in evolution not want their kids to hear about it in science class? If it doesn't exist in their mind, they should not care, right?