West End Beaumont Bulldogs Coach Probation

[1212kmg]

Why exactly is the Mercy Rule in place?  Whatever happened to just playing the game and teaching boys (or girls if they play the game which some do) that sometimes a huge loss is just that -- a loss.  Character is built when you teach kids how to lose gracefully.  Your idea that this league is about you as a coach, dad, mom or league President, or Board member is flawed.  No one cares what you do, don't do or how you perform.  The ultimate question is whether your child is improving, having fun and becoming a better man/woman because he can handle the losses with the wins.  If you as a coach, dad, mom, league President or Board member harps on these alleged atrocities so much so you seek to "punish" others . . . you are only teaching your kids to be complete failures, complainers and ultimate losers in life.  Your kids will be the ones with their hands out begging for favors b/c they are inadequate in every respect.  

 

I would imagine this rule was put in place based on a gentlemen's agreement or understanding that no coach would intentionally run up the score.  I have read the by-laws and "definition" of the "Mercy Rule" and no where does it allow for this board to meet out a punishment of any sort, let alone to tell a man he is put on a lifetime probation.  No where does it outline what any alleged punishment would be either -- it was left undefined b/c no one ever expected this type of result.    If you want to continue with these decisions, please know that the rules are so vague and lacking in definition that they do not call for the use of "evidence" (such as videos), let alone using video and then not letting the accused party to view it in his or her defense.  If you want to start holding "ethical" boards and meeting punishment, you better have some protocol and particularly defined violations in writing in addition to what is required to constitute a legitimate vote to punish a coach and/or vote off a Board member.    

 

This board needs to be a little more pensive in how they act in the future.  They are skirting on the brinks of a discrimination lawsuit.  One in race given the 2 coaches they put on probation are African American (a repeated pattern I regret) and now sexual.  This I am afraid is coming from a white mother who is tired of listening to all this bantering of pathetic men.  You seriously kicked off of the one women who is on this Board?  I have no idea what she did to warrant such action but, again, where do your by-laws allow for such action?  You guys are fooling yourselves if you think your "punishments" have any real consequence other then defaming and libeling certain individuals.  These people have no legal impetus to follow your punishment other than they are trying to be respectful to the league and the kids -- which this is all about and kudos to them for not fighting back.  Be careful what you say to disparage other individuals on this forum and elsewhere.  The internet has a strange way of coming back to bite you in the --- (anonymous or not).  Things that are said on these forums can be used in discovery and in litigation.  

 

Stand up and be real men and teach your boys to be proud losers or winners, no matter how the chips may fall and no matter how bad you think you have been cheated (truth or not).  You aren't teaching your kids squat if you helicopter and try to outdo their "failures" all the time.  Life lessons people -- get real.

 

 

[BH Keepin it Real]

Don't know the circumstance here, but I agree with everything you have stated in your post. If we can't look failure in the eye and accept it, we will never succeed as a person.
Amen!

[thetragichippy]

White coaches have been put on probation in the past.

[myson#1fan]

Have white coaches been suspended for a year for their first offense? Just 2 weeks before all the BMT fiasco a Nederland coach was only suspended for two games for breaking a rule. Well breaking a spirit of a rule. Lol AND the BMT coaches still do not know why they were suspended the first time since they couldn't see the video or be at the board meeting.

[madmen]

Posted a couple of weeks ago on a different thread.....

 

"Rules are adopted to ensure equal opportunity, not equal outcomes. Codes of Conduct are set into place to protect all involved- children, parents, coaches, board members, referees…ect, within an organization. If you are going to enforce an “ethics” rule, then do so in a clear and definite manner and across the board, none of this case by case baloney. Investigate better and make the rules less subjective.

 

 

This is football people; you win some, you lose some. These kids are upset no matter if the score is 60-0 or 39-0; a loss is a loss. All athletes (and parents for that matter) need to learn how to win and lose with dignity. On the playground, kids learn that organically (playing to 11 sometimes results in a score of 11-0).

 

The purpose of sport is to primarily teach kids life lessons about success and about failure. The failure lessons may in fact be more important than the successes. Everyone wants their child to succeed, its part of being a parent, however, protecting your child from difficult situations only delays lessons that are very necessary. Those parents who consistently prepare the path for the child by confronting teachers and coaches, changing teams, changing leagues and changing schools are making life-long losers out of their children. Kids will grow into adults and experience grumpy co-workers and mean bosses. Constantly insulating kids from difficult situations and consistently cleaning up the mess they create defeats the purpose of sport. Remember you are a parent. You are not a friend, a manager, or an agent. Your job is to help create a competent, capable adult, not a dysfunctional child."

 

 

 

***The job of a “board” is to protect all the athletes, not just “the ones being beaten by a superior team.” If a Code of Conduct is clearly broken, then address the situation and implement a fair and reasonable punishment. One cannot elect to choose which Code of Conduct and/or Rules are to be enforced (or not enforced) so that it benefits them. Either the rules are meant for everyone or they are meant for no one.

 

I am flabbergasted that no one has investigated the board that is handing down these punishments for rules that are so elusive. In every court of law, a person has the right to defend him/herself and produce evidence of their own.  It is my understanding that neither the Nederland nor Beaumont coahes have been allowed to execute either. Something smells fishy; and I dont like fish.

[thetragichippy]

Then don't participate in the organization.......Start your own.

 

I didn't like the way little league was run.......I didn't cry on a board about how unfair it was, I left and put my son on a select team.......that was the BEST thing I could have ever done. 

 

and Madmen....instead of being flabbergasted, start your own investigation.....take the bull by the horns......

 

post your findings here..... ;)

[Marie]

I asked Bobcat 101 about Article II section II of the By-laws that says the STJFL will not dicriminate against any players ability. The answer he game me was ask my local STJFL Rep, I have and their take is no matter the kids skill level everyone is allowed to play. So if that is their take then it would seem to me that the entire STJFL board would have that same view.

 

i am flabbergasted that all the other leagues LCM, WOS , Vidor, BC, West BMT, Nederland are allowing this to happen. All of these issues regarding the punishment towards the BMT and Nederland Coach is directed  by Lum, PNG, and Orangefield.  If I am not correct then show the proof and show were both of these men were allowed to address a full board and explain their side. 

 

Remember BOBCAT101 you made the statement in front of all the coaches the STJFL board is held to a higher standard  and it seems that the way some of you are running this league you have forgotten that you made that statement. We have 2 weeks left and the playoffs start, time will tell how the leaders of each league will handle the election process  come this January. I hope that if those on the STJFL board are really in this for the kids will stepdown and allow some new blood in that can move this league forward.

[1212kmg]

It seems to me that some changes need to be made to the by-laws and code of conduct so coaches know ahead of time what they can and cannot do with specificity.  There also needs to be some changes to the voting rules (what constitutes a quorum for example) and a definitive ban on having "secret" meetings without the full presence of all those on the board.  It is a sad state of affairs that something like that even has to be put in writing.  If the majority feels the need to keep the Mercy Rule then you need to establish a separate committee comprised of individuals who are unbiased (e.g. not coaches, don't have kids that play, etc.) to make these determinations.  All in all, I think it is a waste of time and energy and you just need to get rid of the rule altogether.  If someone truly runs up a score intentionally, they are their own worse enemy and will suffer eventually as a result.  

 

Yes, thetragichippy, I think a lot of people are considering another organization because of these antics -- not something to be proud of.

[hunch]

I agree with most above.  As I have stated numerous times, the rules are not enforced as intended.  The rule regarding "running score up" is to prevent a team from INTENTIONALLY scoring as much as they can.  I think a violation would require some proof of the coaches intention before you could punish him.  The rules do not tell you to try and not score.  If that is what the league wants (agree or not) than the rules should indicate such.  Once you have pulled your starters, 2-3rd stringers should be allowed to run plays they that have learned instead of having to run the ball in the middle of the field.  A coach should not have to tell his kids to run out of bounds etc. as an STJFL rep told one of his coaches when he was faced with that situation. 

 

In reviewing a perceived violation, the head coach of the team should be contacted and told why he is being reviewed and given an opportunity to state what he did or didn't do.  Currently, what I know that has happened this year, is the coach is told you are suspended for rule 10 violation and you can submit a letter offering evidence that you didn't break the rule that board can look at in considering whether or not to grant you an appeal.  Remember, the coach isn't even made aware of specifically what he is accused of doing.  Once your appeal is denied, you can get a copy of the investigative report to learn that the opposing coaches and refs were asked questions but not you.  The questions range from, did winning team pull starters as required, did they run ball up the middle, type of plays run etc.  Even though the referees side with the coach, and the opposing coach doesn't have a complaint on the coach It doesn't matter.

 

To accomplish what it seems the board wants, they should simply state that a team up by x points should intentionally not score.   If team scores then punish them.  I'm not saying I agree with this but it would solve the problem of teams being at the mercy of the board with no clear understanding of the rules. 

 

Other possible things to consider in changing rules: take out the rule regarding points allowed when determining playoffs.  Teams are encouraged to not let someone score in case of tie record in when determining playoff standings.  Possibly let trailing team have ball at 20 yard line until score is under mercy rule.  Possibly having a true mercy rule as in baseball and game is over.

 

It just needs to be clear what the rules are. I agree with Anklebiter that a committee possibly of others that aren't on stjfl board be included in determining a rules violation.  At least present the coach with what he is accused of and let him present his side.

[madmen]

thetragichippy,

I respect your opinion. I am not trying to attack anyone, coaches, board members, nor yourself. I do however have two questions for you:

In any situation that you might find yourself being accused of "breaking a rule" or law, would you want to be allowed to explain yourself and/or actions?

• If your answer is yes, then why not allow these volunteers the same. The outcome may very well have been the same, but at least the accused would have been given the opportunity to address the board and/or accusers. Had the jury "all board members" heard all the evidence and testimony of all involved, what would the outcome have been; we will never know. Like I said before, the conclusion could have been the same, but I guarantee all parties (including coaches, parents, board members) would sleep a lot better and the complaints would diminish had the investigation process (in my opinion) been carried-out in a equal and fair manner.

• If no, please, please, please hire an attorney to represent you if ever the need should arise.

Do you not feel the "ethics" rules are too vague and unclear? Why or why not? I am open to persuasion. I for one like clear and less subjective Rules and/or Codes of Conduct. (It's either over the line or it's not...so to speak)

As far as starting my own investigation, I have emailed all board members and not one response. If the coaches were in the wrong, then shame on them. Both sides should have been heard.... I hope in the future things will be changed. If not, youth sports will suffer.

[thetragichippy]

thetragichippy,

I respect your opinion. I am not trying to attack anyone, coaches, board members, nor yourself. I do however have two questions for you:

In any situation that you might find yourself being accused of "breaking a rule" or law, would you want to be allowed to explain yourself and/or actions?

• If your answer is yes, then why not allow these volunteers the same. The outcome may very well have been the same, but at least the accused would have been given the opportunity to address the board and/or accusers. Had the jury "all board members" heard all the evidence and testimony of all involved, what would the outcome have been; we will never know. Like I said before, the conclusion could have been the same, but I guarantee all parties (including coaches, parents, board members) would sleep a lot better and the complaints would diminish had the investigation process (in my opinion) been carried-out in a equal and fair manner.

• If no, please, please, please hire an attorney to represent you if ever the need should arise.

Do you not feel the "ethics" rules are too vague and unclear? Why or why not? I am open to persuasion. I for one like clear and less subjective Rules and/or Codes of Conduct. (It's either over the line or it's not...so to speak)

As far as starting my own investigation, I have emailed all board members and not one response. If the coaches were in the wrong, then shame on them. Both sides should have been heard.... I hope in the future things will be changed. If not, youth sports will suffer.

 

First off, excellent response. I have no issues debating with a rational person, even if we don't agree.

 

To your first question, YES! If I broke a rule, I would want to know what rule and have an opportunity to explain myself. 

 

Now, about the vagueness of the rules. I coached as an assistant in the STJFL for 6 years, and went to the Superbowl 2 times (never won) and playoff's I think every year. In that time, the only time I ever was involved in a rules violation is when our head coach forgot the players badges.....we had to run home and get them.  We never had a problem "doing the right thing"  in our eyes or in the eyes of the STJFL. So, if you are asking my opinion, the rules are clear enough for me, as I never had a problem in the 6 years I coached.

 

Lastly, there are always 2 sides to a story. We have heard one side but we have not heard the other. I can't make a definitive decision on who is right and who is wrong until I get both sides......however, I don't think that is going to happen because the violation involves the coach and the board.....The board has no obligation to tell me anything.

 

You asked for my opinion.......there you go :)   

[madmen]

First off, excellent response. I have no issues debating with a rational person, even if we don't agree.

 

To your first question, YES! If I broke a rule, I would want to know what rule and have an opportunity to explain myself. 

 

Now, about the vagueness of the rules. I coached as an assistant in the STJFL for 6 years, and went to the Superbowl 2 times (never won) and playoff's I think every year. In that time, the only time I ever was involved in a rules violation is when our head coach forgot the players badges.....we had to run home and get them.  We never had a problem "doing the right thing"  in our eyes or in the eyes of the STJFL. So, if you are asking my opinion, the rules are clear enough for me, as I never had a problem in the 6 years I coached.

 

Lastly, there are always 2 sides to a story. We have heard one side but we have not heard the other. I can't make a definitive decision on who is right and who is wrong until I get both sides......however, I don't think that is going to happen because the violation involves the coach and the board.....The board has no obligation to tell me anything.

 

You asked for my opinion.......there you go :)   

And I respectfully value that opinion....

 

While I have never coach youth football, I have coached other sports and have had only one issue. When the complaint was filed on me, I was informed by the President of the league, allowed to respond in writing as well as defend my actions in person to the board. Witness named by both parties were also questioned in person by the Executive Board Members; everyone was questioned and heard. A decision was voted on; at that point both parties were given the result by the board. The process took two weeks however, I feel a thorough investigation and a complete course of action (from the initial complaint down to the "verdict") were administered by all.

 

I feel you and I agree on that.... hopefully a better investigation process will be addressed in the future.

 

The Rules/and or Codes of Conduct will always be up for debate; This is why we have boards and/or board members. I like black and white rules....no interpretations. Clearly this entire subject has shown us what a wide range of "understanding the rules" can be. And for those of us that volunteer our time, mind, and energy discussing thus topics, should not be individually attacked or ridiculed by anyone. Having served on numerous boards myself, I empathize.

 

One more thing, if I may....

 

I feel this 40 point ethics rule was implemented based on preventing intentionally "running up the score" in malicious manner. If a clean game was played without spiteful behavior or intentions; what is the harm? Leads to my rant regarding life lessons for our youth today.

[ixreneexi]

Then don't participate in the organization.......Start your own.

 

I didn't like the way little league was run.......I didn't cry on a board about how unfair it was, I left and put my son on a select team.......that was the BEST thing I could have ever done. 

 

and Madmen....instead of being flabbergasted, start your own investigation.....take the bull by the horns......

 

post your findings here..... ;)

Riiiiight! What a great answer. When presented with unethical, corrupt and biased members of an otherwise good organization, the obvious answer is to just start another one, not clean up the bad eggs.

 

Seriously? The "if you don't like it, go somewhere else" adage is seriously not applicable here. Yes, it's a distinct possibility, but it's not the right, ethical, or correct way to move forward.

[thetragichippy]

Riiiiight! What a great answer. When presented with unethical, corrupt and biased members of an otherwise good organization, the obvious answer is to just start another one, not clean up the bad eggs.

Seriously? The "if you don't like it, go somewhere else" adage is seriously not applicable here. Yes, it's a distinct possibility, but it's not the right, ethical, or correct way to move forward.

Those are very serious allegations considering you do not have both sides of the story

[ixreneexi]

Those are very serious allegations considering you do not have both sides of the story

Have you not been paying attention to what's going on? They're not allegations--it is what it is, bro.  People aren't even allowed to view evidence being used against them...? People are getting ridiculous discplinary actions placed against them like "lifetime probation" (seriously???)...? People are being "removed" from boards willy nilly as if anyone who even questions things has to be silenced...? I mean what is the deal, folks?! This isn't Communist China... you don't have to place black bags over peoples head to shut them up so they won't offer dissenting opinions...or FACT for that matter.

 

There's no "both sides", there's obviously ten sides to these stories. Crazy! It's obvious that the boards themselves need a system of checks and balances to prevent this kind of ridiculous behavior. How many times do I have to be told (or do others have to say) "we're all in this for the kids" before someone stops and realizes that parent egos are the problem--and they're no in it for the kids.

 

Also worthy of mention: you didn't actually acknowlegde the message/meaning in my post. That is NOT the answer. Period.

[thetragichippy]

I will say it again.......I have only heard from parents and probably some coaches from the Beaumont side......I have not heard any statements from STJFL.

[mfd814]

When the Bmt Bulldogs first started and were getting the mess beat out of them , no one questioned the scores of the opposing team, they took their whooping and kept getting better. Back them Bmt could ONLY have kids in certain West end or Private schools on the team. If this is still true, { Is it ? }. And they are dishing it out, stop the belly aching.

Kids in high school get slobber knocked all the time, it happens, you teach them to never give up.

I also think they should try not,to let a very athletic,child get the ball, but it sure isn't fair to that talented kid, to not let him play. It teaches him sportsmanship, but it isn't fun at ths age.

Perhaps, the rule should be changed to a minimum play player can get the ball. Of let the Ref choose who is in back field. Just,don't try and hurt the kid they put in there.

[Luvyablue]

I will say it again.......I have only heard from parents and probably some coaches from the Beaumont side......I have not heard any statements from STJFL.

Bingo!!!!! Even the accused haven't heard from them.....,.

[Luvyablue]

It's fine to say don't like it, leave - until it happens to you and your child.

YOU didn't like little league, so YOU left. It feels just a tad different when you're name's drug through the mud and you're accused of numerous wrongs. Accusations you can't even respond to.

No man should have to tell his 10 year old son he's been banned from coaching over one alleged infraction. An infraction that never occurred and even if it had, a 2 year suspension is overkill. That's like sentencing someone to death for a speeding ticket!

I believe in standing up for what's right and in the end I hope my child will do the same.

The STJFL board should right their wrong and reinstate the coach and give the BMT kids their games back.

Edited October 7, 2014 by thetragichippy
coaches name

[thetragichippy]

Bingo!!!!! Even the accused haven't heard from them.....,.

 

I can't put my hands/mind around that. 

[Luvyablue]

I can't put my hands/mind around that.

Why?

[Luvyablue]

I truly want to have a civil discussion / debate about the above.

In my opinion the entire situation was handled wrong from the beginning.

No one from the STJFL has ever talked to our coaches. Or been interested in hearing "our side".

It's all he said / she said. Common decency would have been to give BMT the chance to hear what rule was violated and the chance to present a defense to the accusation.

Given the seriousness of the 2 year suspension, having all parties involved sign an acknowledgement of the terms of the suspension, would have been appropriate.

[thetragichippy]

Why?

Will respond in the morning

[BC2010]

I remember several years ago, a Lumberton coach received a lifetime ban from coaching for getting into a fight on the sidelines. The  next year he was up in the pressbox like nothing had ever happened. Now what is worse, a coach fighting or someone getting beat by too many points. What is this world coming to???

[js992014]

I work with that guy and he didnt coach for 4 years but they let him come back to be a assistant coach the last year his son played.