James Eagan Holmes

[tvc184]

If you resist, stuff can happen. I saw a case where a man ran from the cops, wasn't wearing a belt, and reached down to pull his pants up, and was shot because to multiple officers it appeared he was reaching for a gun. He didn't have a gun, and it was a tragic event, but he wasn't "killed for resisting". He was killed because he put officers in a situation where they had to make what they believed at the time to be a life or death situation. You often hear people say "someone shouldn't be killed for resisting." They're not being killed because they resisted, but their resistance HAS lead to their death. Had they complied with officers, whether the officers were right OR wrong in arresting them, not one of them would've died.

 

 

Oops!!

 

Don't bring that up again!!

[PAMFAM10]

I don't believe officers enjoyed having to pull out a weapon. I don't think they wake up and decide they wanna kill or harm someone today. I do believe however from my own visual encounters cops can be very overly aggressive. I do believe trust has been lost. It's many cases with clear video of abuse from a officer that leads to nothing at all. The suspect can not have other criminals review his case why should police review the police. It's alot of cases that clearly shows the officers went to far even sometime resulting in death. Still the officer face no criminal charges and the department releases a statement in the police favor. Leaving alot to believe we'll if they did it to so and so. Maybe they did it to him also. Good blacks should distance themselves from the bad. Good cops should distance themselves from the bad. Instead black roll with blacks and cops roll with cops right or wrong.

[tvc184]

I don't believe officers enjoyed having to pull out a weapon. I don't think they wake up and decide they wanna kill or harm someone today. I do believe however from my own visual encounters cops can be very overly aggressive. I do believe trust has been lost. It's many cases with clear video of abuse from a officer that leads to nothing at all. The suspect can not have other criminals review his case why should police review the police. It's alot of cases that clearly shows the officers went to far even sometime resulting in death. Still the officer face no criminal charges and the department releases a statement in the police favor. Leaving alot to believe we'll if they did it to so and so. Maybe they did it to him also. Good blacks should distance themselves from the bad. Good cops should distance themselves from the bad. Instead black roll with blacks and cops roll with cops right or wrong.

 

The police only review the police internally to see if policy is violated. The police don't decide who to take charges on even for normal non-police criminal cases. Those decisions are reserved for the District Attorney, US Attorney, City Prosecutor, etc. 

 

In civil cases, a jury does that. You can sue anytime you wish. 

 

As far as the criminal charges that "clearly shows" the officers went to far, which cases? Name a case that is clear cut that everyone knows the officer is guilty and yet no charges were brought? Even in cases where charges are taken against an officer, the officers are often found not guilty by a jury when the facts of the case come out and the jury is read the law by the judge. 

 

In the US Supreme Court under Graham v. Connor, they said that to view if an officer is wrong you have to view it from "objective reasonableness" as seen through the eyes of the officer that has to make (in the SC's own words) "split second" decisions. The Graham case is significant in my opinion because Graham had not committed any crime however he suffered injuries at the hands of officers during a detention for a crime that never happened. An officer saw a guy run into a store and run out, jumped into a passenger's side of a car and left in a hurry. The officer thought that he had witnessed an armed robbery and stop the car and called for backup. In truth Graham was having a diabetic crisis and needed some sugar and when he saw a long line at the checkout counter, he ran out of the store to head to the next one. When stopped Graham was acting irrationally and did not cooperate with the officers and he was put in handcuffs and pretty much thrashed. The officers did not know that it was not a robbery and thought that Graham was resisting them after a felony. Looking at the facts after the incident, the officers were completely wrong however there was no intent or wilful misconduct. It was a mistake for sure. This is part of the synopsis of that case from the Supreme Court: All claims that law enforcement officials have used excessive force -- deadly or not -- in the course of an arrest, investigatory stop, or other "seizure" of a free citizen are properly analyzed under the Fourth Amendment's "objective reasonableness" standard, rather than under a substantive due process standard.

 

By the way, the Supreme Court ruling was unanimous. 

 

From this year alone, the Supreme Court in Plumhoff v. Rickard upheld Graham. In that case officers fired a dozen rounds into a car that had fled from them and presented a danger to them and the public. Not only was the driver killed but so was the passenger that was likely not a willing participant in the fleeing and had not committed any crime. Again, the SC upheld the officers acting in a tense situation under a split second decision to use deadly force even when an innocent party in the car was killed. And yet again, the ruling was unanimous. 

 

So as far saying there was more force than was necessary, under both state and federal law that is not enough alone to prove a crime. In the heat of battle in I hit a guy 6 times and a video later shows that 4 hits may have been enough, it does not prove any illegal act. 

 

Under Texas law for Official Oppression, the required culpable mental state is "intentionally" violating someone's rights. That means the officer was fully aware that he was going too far and did it anyway. It other words he had to have the "intent" to violate someone's rights, not have made a mistake. 

 

Sec. 39.03. OFFICIAL OPPRESSION (a) A public servant acting under color of his office or employment commits an offense if he:

(1) intentionally subjects another to mistreatment or to arrest, detention, search, seizure, dispossession, assessment, or lien that he knows is unlawful;

(2) intentionally denies or impedes another in the exercise or enjoyment of any right, privilege, power, or immunity, knowing his conduct is unlawful; or

(3) intentionally subjects another to sexual harassment.

 

 

Under federal law and a USC 1983 civil rights violation, they state that the officer had to act "wilfully" to violate someone's rights. Merely making a mistake is not such a violation. I copied this from one of the probably hundreds of websites on civil rights violations. "In fact, police are immune from suit for the performance of their jobs unless willful, unreasonable conduct is demonstrated. Mere negligence, the failure to exercise due care, is not enough to create liability. Immunity therefore means that in the typical police-suspect interaction, the suspect cannot sue the police. Civil rights remedies come into play for willful police conduct that violates an individual's constitutional rights."  This section is about lawsuits which requires a lesser degree of proof than a criminal charge. A lawsuit only requires a preponderance of evidence when criminal requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt. You can see that the police are immune from misconduct charges unless it is a wilful violation. Things simply move too fast that someone else can look at months later to decide if the officer did something wrong. That is the basis of Graham v. Connor. 

 

In fact the same website that talks about civil rights starts of with this statement:

"Police officers generally have broad powers to carry out their duties." I think those "broad powers" is what irks a lot of people and causes a lot of people to resist thinking that if they don't agree with an officer, they can contest it on the side of the street. 

 

http://civilrights.findlaw.com/civil-rights-overview/police-misconduct-and-civil-rights.html

 

Uses of force are never pretty. I have seen what I think is clearly unlawful force such as a recent case in CA where an officer beat a women several times in the face when she was offering no resistance. We don't know what preceded the video and I can see that if she came at him he might have knocked her down but this was excessive in my opinion past the point of a split second decision.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/justice/california-police-videotape-beating/

 

 

Even then, ponder this. When a doctor is accused of using a wrong procedure or not following protocol, who reviews the case, a plumber? 

[baddog]

TVC, aren't there lots of cases where the suspect is considered armed and dangerous due to the crime? I know car theft, armed robbery, escapee, and bank robbery are, and that is why they are drawn on during engagement. Lots of people make stupid moves when being confronted by cops. Personally, one of the scariest positions that officers can be in, and it happens probably more than any other, is pulling a car over at night and the officer is by himself. Walking up to that vehicle has to be unbelievably scary. I don't envy that officer at all.

I'm going out on a limb here and say that there is no amount of training that can help any officer make a split-second decision not to fire when a suspect has a gun and is waving it or pointing it at police. I have no training and I would not let him get off the first shot.

[PAMFAM10]

Oscar Grant.

[PAMFAM10]

http://m.youtube.com/verify_age?next=%2Fwatch%3Fitct%3DCD4QpDAYACITCKrz2PPm%252BsICFUchywod8pQAl1ILb3NjYXIgZ3JhbnQ%253D%26sts%3D16427%26utcoffset%3D-360%26v%3DS0P8TSP2YJU&client=mv-google&layout=mobile

[PAMFAM10]

It seems he was handcuffed had a knee on his head called the n word bout 5 times then shot in the back while face down on his stomach. I believe the officer who killed this man did only 7 months.

[stevenash]

And do you believe that this incident is typical rather than an exception?

[PAMFAM10]

And do you believe that this incident is typical rather than an exception?

Read nash read were have I said that I said the opposite. All you have to do is read. The post I posted 7 posts earlier. I'm just giving tvc one case in which he asked for. We disagree on enough issues no need in this one.

[tvc184]

TVC, aren't there lots of cases where the suspect is considered armed and dangerous due to the crime? I know car theft, armed robbery, escapee, and bank robbery are, and that is why they are drawn on during engagement. Lots of people make stupid moves when being confronted by cops. Personally, one of the scariest positions that officers can be in, and it happens probably more than any other, is pulling a car over at night and the officer is by himself. Walking up to that vehicle has to be unbelievably scary. I don't envy that officer at all.

I'm going out on a limb here and say that there is no amount of training that can help any officer make a split-second decision not to fire when a suspect has a gun and is waving it or pointing it at police. I have no training and I would not let him get off the first shot.

 

 

Yes and I have watched many videos of officer deaths caught on camera from officers not wanting to shoot someone. Most officer hesitate and it sometimes cost their lives. 

[tvc184]

Read nash read were have I said that I said the opposite. All you have to do is read. The post I posted 7 posts earlier. I'm just giving tvc one case in which he asked for. We disagree on enough issues no need in this one.

 

This is what you said: 

 

"It's many cases with clear video of abuse from a officer that leads to nothing at all. "

 

As an example you show a video of an officer that made a mistake and got prison time. 

 

In fact the officer in that case was charged with murder. Nothing at all? 

 

In fact the officer was found guilty by a jury for involuntary manslaughter. Nothing at all?

 

I am still waiting for the example that you cite as "many cases" where an officer has "clear video" evidence against him and he is not charged. 

 

A jury will do what a jury will do. If an officer is brought up on charges and a jury looking at the evidence acquits him, that is not because the system covered it up. Officers have constitutional rights also. 

 

The reason for my long winded post above was to show that sometimes what people this is clear evidence does not fit within the laws. In the Supreme Court case from this year (Plumhoff) I cited a unanimous court held that officers did not act improperly when an innocent passenger was killed by the police. While some might cite that as clear evidence of wrongdoing, the law does not say that. 

 

It has to be seen through the eyes of the officer that is in an authority and duty to act. 

[PAMFAM10]

Nothing at all 7 months for killing someone is nothing at all. He executed the man and there's footage of it. If I was on tape doing what the officer did. It'll be no less than 25 to life.....he got 7 months. That's a big problem. I should have said. It's many cases with clear abuse from a officer that leads to a slap on the wrist or nothing at all. Again not saying cops just out killing but I'll love to see the prison time served of those who were charged.

[tvc184]

Nothing at all 7 months for killing someone is nothing at all. He executed the man and there's footage of it. If I was on tape doing what the officer did. It'll be no less than 25 to life.....he got 7 months. That's a big problem. I should have said. It's many cases with clear abuse from a officer that leads to a slap on the wrist or nothing at all. Again not saying cops just out killing but I'll love to see the prison time served of those who were charged.

 

You stated and the implication (not just here) is that even with evidence an officer is never indicted. 

 

In this case the DA indicted him for murder which is the most serious charge available. What more can the state do?

 

The officer got a lawyer and fought it and convinced a jury that he intended to shoot the guy with a Taser and grabbed the wrong weapon. It is still a homicide and the jury found him guilty. He was sentenced to two years, not 7 months. 

 

Really, what else can the state do, remove the officer's right to a trial by jury? Again, this officer was indicted for the highest criminal charge available and was facing life in prison and was prosecuted for that charge. I have seen plenty of jury verdicts that I don't agree with. 

[Bigcam2903]

I'll try to shed some light on this topic through my experiences with Officers. I've encountered some sorry ass cops growing up on the West Side of PA. One incident was around 11 pm. A group of us were walking home(some on bikes) down Grannis & 9th when a police cruiser told us All to stop. We were All asked for ID's, we were all between the ages of 11-13. Nobody had identification except me, my Dad told me because of my Size, always carry my SS card or something to identify myself. After asking each of us our names, we were asked to place our hands on the hood & spread 'em. We'd done nothing wrong, but we complied. We were talked to badly, made fun of, very disrespected. We were guilty of walking around our neighborhood at night blocks from our homes. We were told we were stopped because someone reported bikes stolen. We All knew that was Bull, but that wasn't our Fight, our Parents would have to handle this. The incident didn't make me Hate Cops, but I didn't trust them. I didn't say the Race of the Officers because it doesn't matter, what does is we complied & lived. If anyone of us had gotten out of hand, who knows what happens. Some situations you aren't going to Win even if you're Right. Let's not kid ourselves to think that the Black Community doesn't have a complaint. We certainly do, but some of these cases we're Marching for aren't justified. The Story I just told resonates deeply within me because I have 4 young Sons with lots of friends who are susceptible to these episodes if not careful. Comply & Live.
This isn't a Black or White thing, it's A Compliance thing. Some Laws aren't made for some to succeed, I know this. Until we find a Solution we must adhere to the Laws of the Land.
God says obey my Law & Man's Law

[stevenash]

You are right. Some laws aren't made for some to succeed. They aren't made to let bad guys succeed.

[Bigcam2903]

You are right. Some laws aren't made for some to succeed. They aren't made to let bad guys succeed.

Some people just don't get it. SMH

[tvc184]

 

I'll try to shed some light on this topic through my experiences with Officers. I've encountered some sorry ass cops growing up on the West Side of PA. One incident was around 11 pm. A group of us were walking home(some on bikes) down Grannis & 9th when a police cruiser told us All to stop. We were All asked for ID's, we were all between the ages of 11-13. Nobody had identification except me, my Dad told me because of my Size, always carry my SS card or something to identify myself. After asking each of us our names, we were asked to place our hands on the hood & spread 'em. We'd done nothing wrong, but we complied. We were talked to badly, made fun of, very disrespected. We were guilty of walking around our neighborhood at night blocks from our homes. We were told we were stopped because someone reported bikes stolen. We All knew that was Bull, but that wasn't our Fight, our Parents would have to handle this. The incident didn't make me Hate Cops, but I didn't trust them. I didn't say the Race of the Officers because it doesn't matter, what does is we complied & lived. If anyone of us had gotten out of hand, who knows what happens. Some situations you aren't going to Win even if you're Right. Let's not kid ourselves to think that the Black Community doesn't have a complaint. We certainly do, but some of these cases we're Marching for aren't justified. The Story I just told resonates deeply within me because I have 4 young Sons with lots of friends who are susceptible to these episodes if not careful. Comply & Live.
This isn't a Black or White thing, it's A Compliance thing. Some Laws aren't made for some to succeed, I know this. Until we find a Solution we must adhere to the Laws of the Land.
God says obey my Law & Man's Law

 

Hmmmm.... how long ago was it? I wonder what shift I was working at that time.......... 

 

But thanks for proving the point that I have been saying. You did nothing wrong, ran into some rude officers that you claim had no lawful reason to stop you and your friends, put you on the car like criminals......and after doing what they asked, you walked away unharmed. I am not making any excuses if you were treated unfairly but that seems to show the point even more. Assuming the officers were looking to harass someone and maybe put them in jail without any cause and not actually looking for real crime, you still walked away. Running or resisting simply puts the ball in the officer's court whether they had a good reason for a detention or not. 

 

Several times in my career I have stopped someone that claimed at the scene that I had no reason to stop him. On every such occasion if it was from a citizen calling in a crime or possible crime, I had the dispatcher read the call back to me on the radio so the person that was detained could hear it. 

 

On one occasion I and other officers took a guy down at gun point on a felony traffic stop. I spotted the "suspect" vehicle after a caller claimed a possible kidnapping in progress and at the least, an aggravated (armed) assault with a sawed off shotgun. The caller gave the name of the suspect which we had dealt with many times for violent crimes and although I knew his name, I did not know what he looked like. The description of the suspect pickup truck was an old red Ford stepside with a white camper on the bed. I in the area when the call was dispatched and the old red Ford stepside pickup with the white camper drove in front of me within a couple of blocks of the call. So we got him out of the his pickup and face down on the ground. When I got to him to handcuff him he claimed that he had no clue why we were doing that. I told him to be calm and if it was not him he would soon be on his way. Well it wasn't him. Fortunately he wasn't yelled at, spoken to rudely or injured. I then asked the dispatcher to read back the description of the suspect that was maybe holding a hostage with a shotgun and on the radio they again broadcast an old red Ford stepside with a white camper. I apologized for the incident but wanted him to hear why he was being stopped. He wasn't angry with us or at least he didn't seem so when he left. I just wanted him to know that we were not targeting him and why we thought that we might be killed. He complied in a very serious situation and walked away unscathed and was allowed to hear why he was stopped. Now what would have happened if the guy got scared and fled in the vehicle that at the time we still thought was armed with a fairly high power weapon? 

 

We can argue the point later. The side of the road is not the place to contest a detention, especially physically. 

 

[Bigcam2903]

Let's not kid ourselves to think there isn't a History of Gross Injustice in this Country against Black people. You gave an incident where you didn't escalate the situation with a barrage of insults. This doesn't happen in every case. Let me take a moment to thank you for your Service to the Communities you helped protect. Keeping a dialogue & trying to get an understanding is the only way things get better. I'm only one person doing my part trying to make a difference. Some times it's like tossing a pebble into the Ocean to see if it rises, but I know the impression I leave on my Sons & their friends. Some on this Site are as Cruel as the World, hiding behind their screen names being Bigoted Cowards slinging innuendos back & forth. I can't & won't Allow these sort of people regardless of Ethnicity to Destroy the efforts of many Dreamers who fought & Died for the many Liberties I'm afforded today. I can remember Vividly how Proud my Mother was the few times she could afford for my Sister & I to eat at the Counter at Kress store in Downtown Port Arthur. My Mother wasn't allowed this opportunity, so she Dreamed of the day she could see her kids get the opportunity. I was 8-9 yrs old at the time. Fast forward a few yrs later to the story I told of me & friends being harassed & searched and you ask yourself how far had my Mothers Dream really come?? How far has this Country really come today?? Sorry for the Dramatics, but this is really a Deep Rooted issue & concern to me. I won't quit Educating myself as well as others on the Racial Injustices that are rampant & wide spread throughout this Nation. Heck I don't have to go that far, we see it All Day Everyday in SETX. We must do better. If I offended anyone, that isn't the Intent. Educate,Evaluate, and Collaborate to UNITE.
PEACE!!!!!

[stevenash]

Some people just don't get it. SMH

Some dont, particularly if the case isnt properly articulated.  My point is that laws are made for everyone to adhere to with no exceptions.  And your point is?

[Bigcam2903]

Some dont, particularly if the case isnt properly articulated. My point is that laws are made for everyone to adhere to with no exceptions. And your point is?

My point is you're an Idiot who only sees things through White lenses

[rc2182]

Let's not kid ourselves to think there isn't a History of Gross Injustice in this Country against Black people. You gave an incident where you didn't escalate the situation with a barrage of insults. This doesn't happen in every case. Let me take a moment to thank you for your Service to the Communities you helped protect. Keeping a dialogue & trying to get an understanding is the only way things get better. I'm only one person doing my part trying to make a difference. Some times it's like tossing a pebble into the Ocean to see if it rises, but I know the impression I leave on my Sons & their friends. Some on this Site are as Cruel as the World, hiding behind their screen names being Bigoted Cowards slinging innuendos back & forth. I can't & won't Allow these sort of people regardless of Ethnicity to Destroy the efforts of many Dreamers who fought & Died for the many Liberties I'm afforded today. I can remember Vividly how Proud my Mother was the few times she could afford for my Sister & I to eat at the Counter at Kress store in Downtown Port Arthur. My Mother wasn't allowed this opportunity, so she Dreamed of the day she could see her kids get the opportunity. I was 8-9 yrs old at the time. Fast forward a few yrs later to the story I told of me & friends being harassed & searched and you ask yourself how far had my Mothers Dream really come?? How far has this Country really come today?? Sorry for the Dramatics, but this is really a Deep Rooted issue & concern to me. I won't quit Educating myself as well as others on the Racial Injustices that are rampant & wide spread throughout this Nation. Heck I don't have to go that far, we see it All Day Everyday in SETX. We must do better. If I offended anyone, that isn't the Intent. Educate,Evaluate, and Collaborate to UNITE.
PEACE!!!!!

Very good post....

[stevenash]

My point is you're an Idiot who only sees things through White lenses

Rather than dropping down to your personal insult level, lets try another approach.  Could you give me an example of a law that denies someone an opportunity to succeed.  My thoughts were that laws were enacted to allow society to succeed.

[Bigcam2903]

Rather than dropping down to your personal insult level, lets try another approach. Could you give me an example of a law that denies someone an opportunity to succeed. My thoughts were that laws were enacted to allow society to succeed.

My reply to that is Bull
We can agree to disagree. I'm about solutions, not rhetoric. Wasn't trying to insult, just was an opinion; yea I have been wrong at times. Lol

[PAMFAM10]

Let's not kid ourselves to think there isn't a History of Gross Injustice in this Country against Black people. You gave an incident where you didn't escalate the situation with a barrage of insults. This doesn't happen in every case. Let me take a moment to thank you for your Service to the Communities you helped protect. Keeping a dialogue & trying to get an understanding is the only way things get better. I'm only one person doing my part trying to make a difference. Some times it's like tossing a pebble into the Ocean to see if it rises, but I know the impression I leave on my Sons & their friends. Some on this Site are as Cruel as the World, hiding behind their screen names being Bigoted Cowards slinging innuendos back & forth. I can't & won't Allow these sort of people regardless of Ethnicity to Destroy the efforts of many Dreamers who fought & Died for the many Liberties I'm afforded today. I can remember Vividly how Proud my Mother was the few times she could afford for my Sister & I to eat at the Counter at Kress store in Downtown Port Arthur. My Mother wasn't allowed this opportunity, so she Dreamed of the day she could see her kids get the opportunity. I was 8-9 yrs old at the time. Fast forward a few yrs later to the story I told of me & friends being harassed & searched and you ask yourself how far had my Mothers Dream really come?? How far has this Country really come today?? Sorry for the Dramatics, but this is really a Deep Rooted issue & concern to me. I won't quit Educating myself as well as others on the Racial Injustices that are rampant & wide spread throughout this Nation. Heck I don't have to go that far, we see it All Day Everyday in SETX. We must do better. If I offended anyone, that isn't the Intent. Educate,Evaluate, and Collaborate to UNITE.
PEACE!!!!!

bravo

[tvc184]

...................... If I offended anyone, that isn't the Intent. Educate,Evaluate, and Collaborate to UNITE.
PEACE!!!!!

 

History doesn't offend me. 

 

Out of curiosity, when was this that you got to eat at Kress in downtown PA?