Biker gang-fight ends in deaths

[BlackShirts5]

Allow and support law enforcement to do their jobs, not get in their way and not riot, protest or commit other crimes that would otherwise keep them from doing their jobs.

 

That's for starters.

 

Thugs dont understand that!

 

 

 

Here ya go Big Girl. 

 

http://news.yahoo.com/slain-officers-heroics-shootout-may-shown-court-062819284.html

 

Noone complaining about this black on black crime.  Feel for the officers sons and wife.

[tvc184]

bullets13, on 20 May 2015 - 1:29 PM, said:
I understand the law on that, but this is far from clear cut, right? let's say there's 300 people in there. a few start fighting. shots ring out. it spills out into the parking lot. more people start fighting. people get killed. all 300 are not responsible for that, though. I understand that there were a LOT of people fighting, but just because I'm with a group and some of them get in a fight does not make me responsible. .................

To the question of clear cut question, I will start out with two quotes from my post:
1. If he is involved in a criminal act by being with others......
2. Of course the DA has to prove the case......

As to the "just because I'm with a group.... does not make me responsible.... read below.

I know the case has to be proven and an arrest doesn't mean much other than an accusation. I am merely mentioning the law as it applies or may apply to this case which most people are not likely aware.

TX (like the feds) have organized crime law. In the TX law, a person does not have to actually take part in the crime charged. He only has to have participated in the gang's or combination's (3 or more people of any connection whether they call themselves a gang or not) criminal enterprise at some point. Once you participate willingly in a gang or combination, you can then be charged with any crime committed by the gang or combination. Hence the "organized" part of the law.

Not only can you be charged, by being involved in organized crime, the punishment and crime charged goes up one level from the most serious crime committed. As an example, if a person commits a Burglary of a Building (called Breaking and Entering in some states) and in TX that carries a maximum of 2 years in prison under a State Jail Felony. If the crime is committed as part of a gang or combination, it can go to a 3rd Degree Felony or up to 10 years in prison. Anyone that participates in the gang or combination can be sentenced to that maximum EVEN IF they did not take part in the actual crime.

That's right folks. Take part in a gang or combination and even if you did not do the actual crime but did take part in other crimes of the gang/combination, you can then be held responsible for the entire group of crimes committed.

So did this retired officer shoot someone? It very well may not matter. Does the DA have to prove that he is part of the gang/combination? Sure, every part of a crime has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

That is an explanation though of how 170+ people are being charged at least originally with Capital Murder. It is under Penal Code 71.02 Engaging In Organized Criminal Activity. By the law, every member of a gang can be charged with the most serious crime even if the member was not there. These are only the ones they grabbed at the scene. I can see a lawful means of jailing every single member of the gang but it likely will not be done.

To clarify the "combination" part of that law, this is the Penal Code definition and how far the law reaches.

"Combination" means three or more persons who collaborate in carrying on criminal activities although:
(1) participants may not know each other's identify;
(2) membership in the combination may change from time to time; and
(3) participants may stand in a wholesale-retailer or other arm's-length relationship in illicit distribution operations.


You can see that the 3 or more people do not even have to know each other to be criminally responsible. The membership in the group may change and you may not know who comes or goes. The participants may only be involved in a arm's length relationship. For example two guys break into several homes and sell the stolen goods to a third guy. Only one of the two guys breaking into the home does the selling so the other guy does not even know the buyer of the stolen goods. That is a combination since it is 3 or more people even though they do not all know each other. Since breaking into homes is a 2nd Degree Felony and carries up to 20 years in prison, under Chapter 71 it can be brought to trial as Organized Crime and be enhanced to a 1st Degree Felony or up to 99 years in prison.

Ouch!

So.... Is it clear cut? No. The DA will still have to prove membership in the gang, etc. It is a crime and all rules of charging crimes applies. Can you be charged because "some of them" get in a fight? Absolutely. Welcome to gang laws.

I mainly wanted to point out that the DA will not have to prove who shot who or if a person even fired shots or stabbed anyone. Merely being part of the gang that did so can result in everyone being charged. I have heard that up to 7 gangs were there. If it cannot be proven that a particular gang was involved in any of the action, I am guessing that charges on them will be dropped. As another example, if there were 30 members of any gang on scene and five of them fired shots, all members can be charged. If another gang had 3 members there and no one can show that they participated in any of the assaults, they will likely be released.

Clear as mud?

[77]

http://www.khou.com/story/news/local/texas/2015/05/19/sapd-suspect-in-waco-shoot-out-is-retired-detective/27629817/

[PhatMack19]

Hmmm


http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2015/05/19/report-of-waco-police-affidavitwarrants-inconsistent-with-initial-public-claims-by-same-police/

[PhatMack19]

Videos should start coming out soon


http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2015/05/20/breaking-cctv-video-of-twin-peakswaco-shooting-shared-with-ap-reporters-gunfire-began-outside-bikers-running-for-cover-police-entered-restaurant-with-assault-rifles/

[bullets13]

Videos should start coming out soon


http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2015/05/20/breaking-cctv-video-of-twin-peakswaco-shooting-shared-with-ap-reporters-gunfire-began-outside-bikers-running-for-cover-police-entered-restaurant-with-assault-rifles/

so this guy clearly hates the police. both articles are an effort to drag them through the mud. I have one major problem with them, though.

Both articles are written in a way to cast serious doubt on police accounts of the shooting, and basically tries to pin the blame on them. Anyone reading the article can clearly see that. It gives the impression that a couple of guys are fighting, and then the cops just declare open season, indiscriminately killing anyone they see, even though it was just a minor dustup.

But THEN, in another effort to again make the police look as badly as possible, the article gives the description of the scenario that one biker allegedly found himself in before being arrested (in order to criticize the police further):

Among those arrested was Theron Rhoten, who had just pulled into the parking lot on his vintage Harley chopper when the bullets started flying.

Rhoten showed up at the Twin Peaks restaurant for a regional motorcycle club meeting. But, according to his wife, he soon found himself in the middle of a deadly shootout involving scores of other bikers.

Katie Rhoten said her husband ran for cover and was later arrested, along with motorcycle-riding friends and other “nonviolent, noncriminal people.”


That doesn't really jive with the narrative the author of the "news piece" is selling, as he's suggested that the majority of the bikers were inside, not wielding weapons, and that it was generally a small fight that police just started blasting into.

[shovel]

I'm no conspiracy theorist or anti-police... but this mess is starting to smell bad. No officer was injured. Not even a minor injury reported. How is it in a gunfight the casualties are all one sided? I remember something like this went down in Waco once before...

[LumRaiderFan]

I'm no conspiracy theorist or anti-police... but this mess is starting to smell bad. No officer was injured. Not even a minor injury reported. How is it in a gunfight the casualties are all one sided? I remember something like this went down in Waco once before...

 

Probably helps to be sober in a gunfight.

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

I'm no conspiracy theorist or anti-police... but this mess is starting to smell bad. No officer was injured. Not even a minor injury reported. How is it in a gunfight the casualties are all one sided? I remember something like this went down in Waco once before...

There's several ppl I know that brought that same thing up to me. 

[bullets13]

I'm no conspiracy theorist or anti-police... but this mess is starting to smell bad. No officer was injured. Not even a minor injury reported. How is it in a gunfight the casualties are all one sided? I remember something like this went down in Waco once before...

I'm not sure exactly how it all went down... but if you have two separate groups fighting and shooting at one another, and a 3rd group, with better training and far superior firepower jumps into the fray while the other two are distracted, then that very well could account for it. not sure exactly what happened, but this would be a very viable explanation.

[bullets13]

I gotta stop reading the comment sections on some of these websites. there are a lot of stupid people out there. Not talking about this site: I mean the comment sections below news articles and whatnot.


by the way, the count is up to 118 pistols recovered, along with nearly 150 knives, plus chains and miscellaneous stuff.

[shovel]

I'm not sure what to believe. I read the knives accounted for are pocket knives and the chains were attached to wallets. Like Ferguson and Baltimore, the real story is turning out different than what was originally reported.

[thetragichippy]

I'm not sure what to believe. I read the knives accounted for are pocket knives and the chains were attached to wallets. Like Ferguson and Baltimore, the real story is turning out different than what was originally reported.

 

Maybe.....or here we go again believing the rumor mill and "eye witness" testimony......

[bullets13]

I'm not sure what to believe. I read the knives accounted for are pocket knives and the chains were attached to wallets. Like Ferguson and Baltimore, the real story is turning out different than what was originally reported.

Nothing wrong with pocket knives, but if you use them in a brawl...

[PhatMack19]

It just seemed to me the Waco PD was very quick to come out with an official statement and throw Twin Peaks management under the bus. Not long after it happened, the news was already reporting that Twin Peaks was not cooperating. I'm not sure what happened but it all seemed too fast to me.

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

@HuffingtonPost: The Waco bikers had gathered to hash out their differences. Then one biker ran over another's foot.  http://huff.to/1R8iGqW

 

 

 

 

Now this ^^

[tvc184]

It just seemed to me the Waco PD was very quick to come out with an official statement and throw Twin Peaks management under the bus. Not long after it happened, the news was already reporting that Twin Peaks was not cooperating. I'm not sure what happened but it all seemed too fast to me.

I went to basic swat school at Houston PD about 22 years ago. One of the classes that was taught was the police and the media.

What was pointed out and it is very true is that the media is going to run a story. They will not wait to get the facts and will always try to beat the next news media to the punch. In other words, they are going to run with some story no matter who it slanders or how much is true. All you have to do is look at Ferguson, Missouri and see the stupidity that comes out of the media before any facts are presented. The point of the class that I attended was that they are going to run with a story almost immediately and that you need to at least get your side out there. Having been directly involved in speaking with the media about a local officer involved shooting, I can guarantee you that some of the stuff that was put out to the public was completely bogus.

I have no clue on what the police did in Waco and no body else reading this forum likely does either. Trying to make a judgment merely on the speed of the police putting out a statement is likely to be a folly however. It is common practice in today's policing circles to almost immediately put out a statement when any officer is involved in any kind of critical incident. It has to be that way simply because of the nonsense that is put out to the public and again, we can look at Ferguson Missouri where the media is reporting that witnesses claim that brown had his hands up, and was begging for his life, the police shot him for no reason, etc.

[Chester86]

It just seemed to me the Waco PD was very quick to come out with an official statement and throw Twin Peaks management under the bus. Not long after it happened, the news was already reporting that Twin Peaks was not cooperating. I'm not sure what happened but it all seemed too fast to me.

Well, if you had advance notification this meeting was going to happen, and you had spoken with the establishment's management only to be dismissed it would be easy to throw them under the bus.  Would you say that Twin Peaks was very quick to come out and revoke the Waco stores charter?  I don't think it was difficult for them to point the finger of blame when they tried to get some help - but were turned away.

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

@KHOU: A 30-year-old father in the Waco shootout has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit

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[jv_coach]

@KHOU: A 30-year-old father in the Waco shootout has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit

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​A 30 year old father...if your not a father by 30 you don't know what you are doing. My question is what does it matter if he is a father, brother, or son? He was part of a brawl.

Edited June 2, 2015 by jv_coach

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

@wfaachannel8: Waco police say three officers used firearms in shootout

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