Congress Votes To Ban Confed Flag

[thetragichippy]

BUT!!!!!! Public financed buildings should not wave the flag or banner of a group of people who went against their country. Plain & simple. Now , that is the whole point to this thread. Its an endorsement and glorification of traitors.

​A person commits treason when they take up arms against their own state, not when they take up arms to defend their State from the Federal Government.

Just as a citizen has a right to renounce their citizenship, so does a state have a right to renounce their ties to the union. After a state secedes the citizens of that state are no longer citizens of the United States. Because they are not US citizens they cannot be traitors. By renouncing their ties to the United States, they had effectively renounced their US citizenship.

[PAMFAM10]

​A person commits treason when they take up arms against their own state, not when they take up arms to defend their State from the Federal Government.

Just as a citizen has a right to renounce their citizenship, so does a state have a right to renounce their ties to the union. After a state secedes the citizens of that state are no longer citizens of the United States. Because they are not US citizens they cannot be traitors. By renouncing their ties to the United States, they had effectively renounced their US citizenship.

We can go miles and miles explaining how fighting your own country do not make you a traitor. but call Obama a traitor at the drop of a dime setx logic. (This is not directed at you hippy)

But this is.  OK then why should we honor men who turned there back on this good nation rather kill than free slaves.  Why honor this. Why is it that you refuse to acknowledge that theses were not great men. Regardless of the reason they succeeded they chose to try to destroy the union. The north won yet they don't walk around in old union flags. That would be a great reminder of the past a union flag all across the south. 

[BS Wildcats]

​Yes it is!!!  It is what it is!!

You only look at things through your point of view.  Was slavery and everything that went along with bad, you bet it was.  I know you mentioned you had a gr grandfather that was a slave.  I am truly sorry about that,  irregardless if you think I don't.  But no matter how bad the past was, at some point one must move on.  You see the flag as a symbol of slavery, others don't.  Whether or not that flag flies, it will not change history. History is was it is, history.  We can't change it, but we can learn it. 

[thetragichippy]

We can go miles and miles explaining how fighting your own country do not make you a traitor. but call Obama a traitor at the drop of a dime setx logic. (This is not directed at you hippy)

But this is.  OK then why should we honor men who turned there back on this good nation rather kill than free slaves.  Why honor this. Why is it that you refuse to acknowledge that theses were not great men. Regardless of the reason they succeeded they chose to try to destroy the union. The north won yet they don't walk around in old union flags. That would be a great reminder of the past a union flag all across the south. 

I explained about how the North was over taxing the South. I personally don't believe the war was about Slavery. It goes back to 3% of the population was the only ones who cared or could afford slaves. So, my view is they stood up for States Rights. So did they turn their back or did they fight for something that is very popular today.......States Rights.....although the Supreme Courts ruling on Gay Marriage was a slap in the face to States Rights.....

and for the record PamFam, I like debating with you and I think Slavery and treating anyone with disrespect is a horrible thing. 

[thetragichippy]

https://www.facebook.com/scott.gauthier.355/videos/1107422699287790/

[Hagar]

I keep seeing the word traitor in reference to the South.  By what I gather by looking up the definition of traitor & rebel, they're pretty close.  Let me put this disclaimer in:  I'm to heck & gone from being great in English.  I studied.  Tried hard.  Brown nosed my teachers, just to get a C.  What I'm posting now may be, by definition, wrong, but it's what my pea brain has come up with. 

I'll use the American Revolution as my base, since all seem to agree it was fought for the right cause.  So as it unfolded, to the British, we were traitors, but to us, we were rebels (way over my head here).  

So based on that, you can pick any armed struggle of people fighting against the governing body, and call them traitors.  That would include the Confederacy, the Irish, also against the British, and many African tribes, like the Zulu, also against the British, and the Boers (I think they were Dutch settlers but not positive).  

I suppose if we had lost the Am. Revolution, we'd be on line now and the English would still refer to us as traitors.  You could also say, hey the African tribes were fighting for their homeland.  Yes, so was the Southern soldier.  

Please, don't think I'm trying to start anything with this.  I'm just trying to point out the many ways we have at looking at things.  I don't consider those tribes traitors.  I don't consider the southern soldier as a traitor.  Both were fighting for their homes.  I know, apples and oranges.  Maybe so, but I think all of us, depending on our life experiences, sometimes look at an apple and see an orange.  All of us.  

[PAMFAM10]

I keep seeing the word traitor in reference to the South.  By what I gather by looking up the definition of traitor & rebel, they're pretty close.  Let me put this disclaimer in:  I'm to heck & gone from being great in English.  I studied.  Tried hard.  Brown nosed my teachers, just to get a C.  What I'm posting now may be, by definition, wrong, but it's what my pea brain has come up with. 

I'll use the American Revolution as my base, since all seem to agree it was fought for the right cause.  So as it unfolded, to the British, we were traitors, but to us, we were rebels (way over my head here).  

So based on that, you can pick any armed struggle of people fighting against the governing body, and call them traitors.  That would include the Confederacy, the Irish, also against the British, and many African tribes, like the Zulu, also against the British, and the Boers (I think they were Dutch settlers but not positive).  

I suppose if we had lost the Am. Revolution, we'd be on line now and the English would still refer to us as traitors.  You could also say, hey the African tribes were fighting for their homeland.  Yes, so was the Southern soldier.  

Please, don't think I'm trying to start anything with this.  I'm just trying to point out the many ways we have at looking at things.  I don't consider those tribes traitors.  I don't consider the southern soldier as a traitor.  Both were fighting for their homes.  I know, apples and oranges.  Maybe so, but I think all of us, depending on our life experiences, sometimes look at an apple and see an orange.  All of us.  

Even if I agree and call them rebels instead of traitors which I wont. All those tribes were fighting for righteous reasons the south wasn't it can't be denied slavery was a huge part of the war I don't care if only 3% owned them what percent which they had them which percent felt slaves were subhuman and should stay slaves. Again to me thats like calling Isis or anybody who fight for unjustic reasons rebels. I'm not denying the south had other problems with the north but slavery was the head of it. 

[thetragichippy]

Yup......everyone has a line drawn in the sand of what they believe.  If taking down a flag in a few cities make some people feel better, then I guess that is great. This will fade away very quickly.......or may backfire and more private memorials will be built......then people will see 13 of them as they enter your city.

[BS Wildcats]

Even if I agree and call them rebels instead of traitors which I wont. All those tribes were fighting for righteous reasons the south wasn't it can't be denied slavery was a huge part of the war I don't care if only 3% owned them what percent which they had them which percent felt slaves were subhuman and should stay slaves. Again to me thats like calling Isis or anybody who fight for unjustic reasons rebels. I'm not denying the south had other problems with the north but slavery was the head of it. 

It seems that everyone tends to forget that slavery was prevalent in the north, as well.  The founding Fathers and writers of the Declaration of Independence were slave owners as well.  Does this justify anything, no.  But let's not forget that slavery was just an issue in the South.

[thetragichippy]

It seems that everyone tends to forget that slavery was prevalent in the north, as well.  The founding Fathers and writers of the Declaration of Independence were slave owners as well.  Does this justify anything, no.  But let's not forget that slavery was just an issue in the South.

I have given that argument as well as the taxiation issue.......

their minds are made up

[BLUEDOVE3]

​I didn't ask you if you had something against Evadale. I asked what is Evadale to you as far as the "multi cultural society" you speak of.

​Its a long way from being multi-cultural

[BLUEDOVE3]

​So Evadale ISD is wrong for doing this despite no one in that community having a problem with that display?

​Of course they are wrong. Its the same as today when you have American Rebels ...errrr Isis trying to bomb American cities.

[BLUEDOVE3]

You only look at things through your point of view.  Was slavery and everything that went along with bad, you bet it was.  I know you mentioned you had a gr grandfather that was a slave.  I am truly sorry about that,  irregardless if you think I don't.  But no matter how bad the past was, at some point one must move on.  You see the flag as a symbol of slavery, others don't.  Whether or not that flag flies, it will not change history. History is was it is, history.  We can't change it, but we can learn it. 

​I've moved on. But when I see that flag it brings back the memories of days past when my people were hung a mere 45 years. But again, my only concern is not having it on public property.

[Hagar]

Even if I agree and call them rebels instead of traitors which I wont. All those tribes were fighting for righteous reasons the south wasn't it can't be denied slavery was a huge part of the war I don't care if only 3% owned them what percent which they had them which percent felt slaves were subhuman and should stay slaves. Again to me thats like calling Isis or anybody who fight for unjustic reasons rebels. I'm not denying the south had other problems with the north but slavery was the head of it. 

I agree PF that those tribes were fighting for a righteous reason.  

First, I was surprised about the similarity of the words traitor and rebel.  Knew the words, just never put the two together, so I learned something myself.  

What I've been trying to point out, probably not well from your perspective, yes, to the Confederacy slavery was a factor in the war.  For whatever reason - political, economical, Nothern attempts to put the South under their thumb, etc.  But that young man who joined because his state, his home, was threatened, slavery never crossed his mind.  Again, like the boys who went to Nam, country called.  

I'm not posting this to provoke responses.  I have a pretty good idea why you have taken the stand you have (not totally because I'm not black, and haven't lived your life). I just want you to understand what I see when I hear civil war or see that flag.   I don't see the despicable things done, I see them young men getting cut down and stacked up like cordwood.  That's why I said, we both see an orange but based on our lives, you may see an apple, and I may see a pear.

Even though I don't expect you to agree, I hope you can understand what I see, as I understand what you do.  Enjoyed this discussion.  I think I've learned a few things.  

 

[BLUEDOVE3]

I have given that argument as well as the taxiation issue.......

their minds are made up

​BS, a question to you. When was slavery abolished in the North?

[thetragichippy]

​Of course they are wrong. Its the same as today when you have American Rebels ...errrr Isis trying to bomb American cities.

​So you are comparing Evadale's Rebel flag mascot to Isis trying to bomb Americans?

Seriously? 

There you have it folks......what is wrong with our Country......

 

[BLUEDOVE3]

​So you are comparing Evadale's Rebel flag mascot to Isis trying to bomb Americans?

Seriously? 

There you have it folks......what is wrong with our Country......

 

​Missing my point. Those same folk at Evadale are against American Isis supporters but there is no big difference between them and southern armies in the civil war. They both went against their country. There you have it.

[BS Wildcats]

About 1804, but does that give them a pass because they did it first.

Even if I agree and call them rebels instead of traitors which I wont. All those tribes were fighting for righteous reasons the south wasn't it can't be denied slavery was a huge part of the war I don't care if only 3% owned them what percent which they had them which percent felt slaves were subhuman and should stay slaves. Again to me thats like calling Isis or anybody who fight for unjustic reasons rebels. I'm not denying the south had other problems with the north but slavery was the head of it. 

It seems that everyone tends to forget that slavery was prevalent in the north, as well.  The founding Fathers and writers of the Declaration of Independence were slave owners as well.  Does this justify anything, no.  But let's not forget that slavery was just an issue in the South.

[BS Wildcats]

​BS, a question to you. When was slavery abolished in the North?

About 1804, but do they get a pass because they were the first to do so?

[thetragichippy]

About 1804, but do they get a pass because they were the first to do so?

​Actually.....New Jersey had slaves till 1865......

[Hagar]

​Missing my point. Those same folk at Evadale are against American Isis supporters but there is no big difference between them and southern armies in the civil war. They both went against their country. There you have iIt's

It offends me when you compare Confederate Soldiers to ISIS.  I'm afraid you've lost all credibility with me BD3.  

I make every effort not to do that towards anyone.  Sad.  I enjoyed these discussions.  I've learned.  Evidently, you've learned nothing. 

[PAMFAM10]

I'll just say this me and dove compare the Confederacy to Isis and traitors and get criticism but have the board calls the president a traitor a Muslim etc and get likes and agreements. Which of the two is more deserving of the word traitor...... 

 

 

 

On the flag it might be time to just agree to disagree 

[PAMFAM10]

I'll just say this me and dove compare the Confederacy to Isis and traitors and get criticism but have the board calls the president a traitor a Muslim etc and get likes and agreements. Which of the two is more deserving of the word traitor...... 

 

 

 

On the flag it might be time to just agree to disagree 

[BLUEDOVE3]

It offends me when you compare Confederate Soldiers to ISIS.  I'm afraid you've lost all credibility with me BD3.  

I make every effort not to do that towards anyone.  Sad.  I enjoyed these discussions.  I've learned.  Evidently, you've learned nothing. 

​And thats your best answer?  Okay!!

[Hagar]

I'll just say this me and dove compare the Confederacy to Isis and traitors and get criticism but have the board calls the president a traitor a Muslim etc and get likes and agreements. Which of the two is more deserving of the word traitor...... 

 

 

 

On the flag it might be time to just agree to disagree 

Name calling Presidents is like hollering at Officials at a football or basketball game.  It's a time honored tradition.  I've heard them called a lots worse than traitor or Muslim.  

I'm with you:  Let's agree to disagree.  It's the way things are.  Move on to other topics, like I heard this morning the Cowboys may lose Dez Bryant.