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[PAMFAM10]

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[stevenash]

No doubt the student was 100% innocent and did nothing to provoke such a reaction. The officer just simply decided that he wanted to rough up a student.

[bullets13]

The student earned her arrest, but it looks to me that the force the cop used exceeded what was necessary for the situation.  I'll be curious to see what TVC says 

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

Far exceeded it from the multiple pieces of video footage I've seen. Is what it is though I guess over bubble gum and a phone.   

 

 

This is kinda interesting too. 

@NYDailyNews: An army vet watched the #AssaultAtSpringValleyHigh and recalled when the cop beat him.

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[TxHoops]

Many of these incidents look bad for a reason.  I heard an interesting "fact" on a tv program this week.  NYC has gotten more than its share of publicity on shootings by police officers.  The person speaking (who had supposedly researched the situation) said that of all the unarmed "victims" who had been shot by a NYPD officer over the past many years (it was either a 2 or 3 decade period), not one had been white.  Kind of a tough statistic to explain away.  

[TxHoops]

For the record, the following report showed a similar claim was proven false.  Even so, the data compiled is still disturbing to me.  

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[tvc184]

For the record, the following report showed a similar claim was proven false.  Even so, the data compiled is still disturbing to me.  

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How disturbing is it?

Can it be as disturbing as the FBI UCR stats that show in 2013 one race of people committed 55% of all homicides where the actor was know and that is more than 420% more than their population? Think about that for a minute if we didn't have stats to back it up. We have 13% of the population committing 55% of the murders. 

If we have statistics to back up that the most violent crime is committed at such a high rate, can that same conclusion be reasonable for other areas? 

Those same stats show that about 90% of all murders were committed by men. Is that fact prejudicial? Does it show a sexual bias against men? 

It is easy to use stats as stand alone questions but I trust the FBI stats more than some of the stuff that simply pops up on the internet, like your next post that showed  the post above was at least partially bogus. 

Does it make things worth looking at? Sure. Do stats alone prove anything? If so then we can conclude that one population is at least 400% more violent than the rest of them combined. 

[tvc184]

The student earned her arrest, but it looks to me that the force the cop used exceeded what was necessary for the situation.  I'll be curious to see what TVC says 

Back to the actual topic, it obviously looks like more force was used than necessary. I don't see how he justifies it. 

He didn't really hurt her and the news reports use such words as a "beat down". The officer probably could have killed her easily if he wished and he just tossed her around. Due to his size and strength she looked like a rag doll and therein lies the problem. I think the officer likely had a lawful authority to put his hands on the student, maybe arrest her (according to the laws in that state), and use necessary force. He is in trouble because that force went above "necessary". 

But in cases like this you have people like Nancy Grace (who hates more of the world and all men). I was at my mother's house tonight and she unfortunately had CNN on and Grace was spitting out her man hater gibberish. She said something like, "The only classroom disruption that this girl was involved in was being the victim of a police beat down". 

Really Nancy? You saw what happened in that classroom before the video started or is it that as a lawyer you know that you are spitting out nonsense but your ratings are dependent on your nonsensical rants?

So..... did the officer have the authority to take her into custody or use force to do so? Without knowing any more than what is on the video I would still say that yes he did. Did the amount of force used against her comply with "necessary force"? I don't see how. 

[TxHoops]

Umm, I think I conceded the problem of making blanket statements.  However, the statistics of which you speak do not take into account other factors.  For instance, what is the percentage of homicides, since we are using that offense in a vacuum, go unsolved?  Close to 40%?  Are we to assume those homicides, when we don't know the perp, break down to the same percentages?  One could certainly make that argument.  Also, these numbers are based on convictions.  What is the conviction rate for white defendants vs black defendants?  If the conviction rate is higher for one race vs. another, are we to assume police work is shoddier in general when the defendant is waspy?  Or does socioeconomics come into play?  My point is, as it was originally, you can't use any data objectively when there are indubitably some subjective aspects at play.  

Nonetheless, there has been plenty of disturbing trends of late.  And blanket support for any sector of our society, even those charged with our protection, is not likely to offer any solutions to problems that do exist. 

[tvc184]

The blanket support sure isn't in favor of the police at the moment. 

 

[TxHoops]

And not to belabor the issue, because I was trying to use a specific example of why these incidents look bad, but I believe I was speaking about a specific small part of our country where a lot of high profile incidents have occurred.  I believe you will find the white population in NYC lower (around 44%) and the African American population higher (around 25%) than the 2013 FBI number you used for the country at large. 

But as to the original subject of the thread and Nancy Grace, we are on the same page. 

[tvc184]

Some of the problem is that no amount of force looks good. There is simply no way you can use force even when completely lawful and have it look good. I have seen many cases where the officer clearly was lawful in his actions but it looks and sounds terrible. 

From the comments I see you would think the law says it has to be a fair fight to take someone into custody or that an officer must suffer some kind of injury before any force can be justified. 

That is just plain stupid. It is very hard to convict officers of abuse both in state and federal court because the law is in favor of the officers using force (as I am sure that you know) as it has to be. Look at SCOTUS rulings and time after time to protect officers, we have votes like 9-0, 8-1 or 7-2 in using force or detentions. The laws and court rulings say that you have to comply with officers in most circumstances and you cannot even resist an unlawful arrest. For some reason, especially lately, we see a rash of non-compliance and it seems to be centered around a segment of the population. I sure seems from what I have seen that the message has gotten out that if an officer even speaks you a person then the officer is somehow violating the law or someone's rights. It is like people feel emboldened to break the law or resist even lawful uses of force. I feel like this trend will not end anytime soon. 

About 99% of the problem can be ended if somehow you can get the word out that compliance with an officer's commands is generally required and any resistance might open up the person to a lawful use of force against him. Instead we have people that are spitting out nonsense and people believing that if they get arrested, they have the chance to visit the White House. 

[TxHoops]

The blanket support sure isn't in favor of the police at the moment. 

 

Oh, no doubt you are correct.  If anything, it has trended the other way and unfairly so.  I was referring (although it wasn't clear) to any person giving an entire group blanket support.  Police officers, in my experience, are no different than any noble profession (and I believe cops and teachers are the most under appreciated and underpaid). There are good and bad ones and the bad ones happen to get the vast majority of the media attention. 

[TxHoops]

Some of the problem is that no amount of force looks good. There is simply no way you can use force even when completely lawful and have it look good. I have seen many cases where the officer clearly was lawful in his actions but it looks and sounds terrible. 

From the comments I see you would think the law says it has to be a fair fight to take someone into custody or that an officer must suffer some kind of injury before any force can be justified. 

That is just plain stupid. It is very hard to convict officers of abuse both in state and federal court because the law is in favor of the officers using force (as I am sure that you know) as it has to be. Look at SCOTUS rulings and time after time to protect officers, we have votes like 9-0, 8-1 or 7-2 in using force or detentions. The laws and court rulings say that you have to comply with officers in most circumstances and you cannot even resist an unlawful arrest. For some reason, especially lately, we see a rash of non-compliance and it seems to be centered around a segment of the population. I sure seems from what I have seen that the message has gotten out that if an officer even speaks you a person then the officer is somehow violating the law or someone's rights. It is like people feel emboldened to break the law or resist even lawful uses of force. I feel like this trend will not end anytime soon. 

About 99% of the problem can be ended if somehow you can get the word out that compliance with an officer's commands is generally required and any resistance might open up the person to a lawful use of force against him. Instead we have people that are spitting out nonsense and people believing that if they get arrested, they have the chance to visit the White House. 

Agree with most if not all of what you say here.  My definition of "excessive force" would be higher than most because of the laws we have the necessity for having them that way.  The deadly force issue is more troubling to me.  In the instances where it is unjustifiably used, I personally believe it is often the result of someone having a gun and a badge that probably never should have been issued either to begin with, for whichever of a myriad of reasons there might be. 

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

@NBCNews: UPDATE: South Carolina deputy seen flipping student at her desk has been fired

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[BS Wildcats]

Guess it was not a flag that caused this, since it has been taken down.  Could it just be that there are just bad ppl or dumbarses in this world.  The flag issue is like the issue with guns.  Blame it on the gun, not the idiot on the other end.  Blame the flag, not the individual.

[TxHoops]

This is probably considered sexist but my biggest problem with this incident is that it was a girl.  I understand she deserved to be removed from the class and was not cooperating but I just cringe when I see any man manhandling a girl like that.  I was raised you never lay a hand on a female - ever.  Yes, I know officers have to in their job but not excessively which this certainly appears to be. Honestly, when I first saw the video, I just assumed it was a dude and it looked bad.  When I heard it was a she, it looked really bad. 

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

This is probably considered sexist but my biggest problem with this incident is that it was a girl.  I understand she deserved to be removed from the class and was not cooperating but I just cringe when I see any man manhandling a girl like that.  I was raised you never lay a hand on a female - ever.  Yes, I know officers have to in their job but not excessively which this certainly appears to be. Honestly, when I first saw the video, I just assumed it was a dude and it looked bad.  When I heard it was a she, it looked really bad. 

you not the only one that assumed that, but I watched multiple pieces of footage so knew after that.

 

Just take a look on social media, at first its was a hell of alot of folks (even celebs) posting "well he deserved it" "he shoulda stayed off his phone" etc….. Those same folks begin to insert foot in mouth when they found out it was a female.. "Why would he do that to that lil girl" "would he handle his daughter that way" etc….. It was funny to watch the fake outraged folks online after they started finding out it was in fact a female student. 

[Hagar]

I have to admit I did want to manhandle a woman once.  Think it was Miss July, sometime in the late 60's, but I'm afraid I can't remember the year (only one I'm admitting too). 

[bullets13]

While the officer used more force than necessary, I'm so sick of every news outlet taking all of these instances and instantly turning them into racial abuse of innocent victims.  There is nothing innocent or okay about a high school student refusing to do what a teacher, then a principal, and then a cop tell her to do.  She absolutely deserved to be arrested.  And as so many of us so often say, NONE OF THIS would've happened had she just followed the instructions of school officials and the officer, all of which were beyond reasonable.  As long as people believe that they do not have to obey the law, and that it's somehow their right to disobey police officers, we'll continue to have instances like this, and the media constantly reinforcing this sentiment increases the problem exponentially.  

[5GallonBucket]

isn t it great that a student can disobey teachers numerous times, administration numerous times, and an officer numerous times and it falls on the officer.  Please what are we teaching our kids. "Its okay for students to disobey"

very simple do what you are told.

would this even be in the news if it wasn't white cop/black student

 

 

Edited October 29, 2015 by 5GallonBucket

[5GallonBucket]

you act a fool you get treated like a fool.

[Hagar]

Like most of you, I get tired of the dumb, stupid, senseless, (etc) crap that gets thrown at us.  This incident just another example of the lack of respect we have for authority, and each other.  Then the deputy overreacted when his adrenaline kicked in.  But it points out one very significant reason our Educational System is failing, and that is discipline in the classroom. 

About 10 years ago, a journalist messed up and reported something very significant.  The students in schools on military bases scored higher on std test, than most of their public counterparts.  Keep in mind that those schools on bases are totally integrated.  If Sgt Jones' son acts up, or underperforming, Sgt Jones is called in by his CO, and evidentially it gets addressed.  I'd guess you have similar results at most private schools.  Straighten up or go somewhere else.  I'm convinced discipline in the schools would improve performance, and I'm equally convinced that it won't happen in the current PC, blame someone else, society we've become.  

Oh, I should add, you won't see another article like the one I mentioned above.  If it makes sense, but isn't PC, by today's standards, it's not allowed in the media.  Suspect that reporter is doing Obits for the Saddlehorn, Idaho Journal. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by REBgp
Last paragraph

[TxHoops]

Can't even believe we are trying to find justification for this guy's action.  Was the student out of line?  Of course.  Should she have not disrupted class and then left when told to?  Yes.  Did the officer need to topple the desk to get her out of it?  Maybe.  Did he need to sling her across the room before cuffing her?  Get the hell out of here.  And let's not forget who is the kid and who is the adult.  

I will go ahead and make a presumption too since there are plenty of those made on this board and in this thread.  Maybe before taking his next job (since he no longer has this one), he might want to lay off the 'roids.  Should help with the anger issues.

Smh 

[tvc184]

There was a case locally in the news a few months ago and it was on audio but not video. Actually the video was running but the officers were inside of an apartment.

Hearing the exchange, I am almost positive the officers were wrong in that particular case. I saw many social media comments on both sides of that incident. I saw a lot of cop haters that were simply saying things that were not legally correct. The ol', "An officer cannot blah blah", etc. Sorry, yes he can.

The oddest part about it was the police defenders in that case were just as bad. "He is a good guy..." or "The suspect was a liar.." or "The suspect was only looking for money...", etc. Maybe all of that is true however, from what I heard, the officers on scene were legally wrong and made an unlawful arrest and possibly unjustified force. 

It is like a political argument where people are drawing sides based on who they like the most. Kind of like my party is better than your party or Nederland is better than PNG because it is my hometown. There is no rational basis for it and it almost like choosing a favorite color. None of that should enter law enforcement. Bullets has ridden with me enough to know that I do not defend officers that I think or in many case, know are wrong. Some things just cannot be justified. The part that I don't like is that all officer mistakes or maybe most of them are not worthy of criminal charges or termination. Then the other side wants to make the suspects into a hero like the Michael Brown case. Brown committed at least two felonies and was shot charging an officer. Groups like black lives matter have made him out to be a hero and all officers as villains. That even after both the state and federal governments found no wrong doing on the part of the officer and obvious criminal acts by Brown. Even assuming the facts changed and the shooting of Brown was unjustified, he was still a felon. That is the part that I have a hard time with. If one officer makes a mistake then all officers are bad but if a felon is arrested, shot or struck while not complying with police orders which are very likely lawful, he is a hero.