TVC,opinions on this?

[king]

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Bout to spark outrage

[Englebert]

I'm headed to Baton Rouge Friday morning. Hope this doesn't get too bad.

[thetragichippy]

Lots of unanswered questions for sure. This thing is blowing up on Facebook.

[team first]

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[Peppermint Patty]

50 minutes ago, team first said:

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I have lots of questions, but I question this article for sure. 

Just from the one photo I've seen, no way he was a member of the Bloods. He's wearing a blue shirt.

I'm no gang expert, but I have been around enough teenagers and gang-bangers to know that would not happen. Just not how it works.

[team first]

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[tvc184]

I am sure the investigation is far from over.

What is probably public at the moment from news reports is that the police were responding to a man with a gun and was claimed to be pointing it at the person that called the police. In case that didn't sink in, the police did not initiate this contact. Someone called the police of a many threatening another with a gun. 

Two officers responded and you could hear a pop on the camera that sounded to me like a Taser being fired. The store owner reported to the media that an officer did use a Taser on the man. If the officer did it either did not work or both darts did not hit the target. Tasers are far from foolproof. Then he was ordered to the ground which could be heard on the video. After a couple of seconds of no compliance by the guy, an officer tackled him. During the struggle you can hear an officer that sounded like he said, "He's got a gun.... gun" . 

At that point at least one officer pulled out his firearm. A few seconds of continued struggle (where the deceased could have given up at any time but would not) the shots were fired. The store owner where this happened stated that one of the officers did pull a gun out of the suspect's pocket. 

Were the officers in reasonable fear of their lives from a man that another person claimed was pointing a gun at him? Who then refused officers commands to get on the ground? Who continued to fight after officers claim to have found a gun on the suspect, yelled it out for the other officer but the suspect had to hear that the officers found the gun and after theirs were drawn, he continued to fight? This continued fight made it a risk to officers that the suspect could get the gun, assuming the report of the gun in his pocket are correct.   

The store owner is reported to have said, the suspect didn't have his hand on the gun.... yet. I am guessing that some people think that officers should wait until a suspect actually gets the gun out.... you know, to make it more fair. 

None of the above is proven but it is what has been reported. Hopefully an investigation will get to the bottom of what happened. Looking at it from a video several feet away and viewing it from the eyes of people that were not in a struggle for their own lives, it is easy to blame the officers. Obviously that is easy to do when the video shows very little of anything that is going on while the officers are on the ground struggling. I cannot tell if the officers were correct or not but I know that many people are ready to build the gallows with no evidence needed. 

Like almost every one of these incidents, it could have been completely avoided by simply complying with an officers commands which in a situation like this (reported a man with a gun) are almost always lawful.  If someone reports to the police that a man is waving a gun at people on the street or at an individual, there is almost no court in the land that does not think the officer can restrain that person, with force if needed, to find out if he is a threat to the public. 

 I do not know Louisiana law but I'm sure that is similar to Texas. In Texas law clearly states that you cannot resist even an unlawful arrest. The place you fight whether an arrest was lawful is in court, not on the side of the street. 

In Graham v. Connor the US Supreme Court stated in a rare unanimous decision that use of force by officers must be viewed from the officer's prospective, who have to make a split second decision and not have months to sit back and go over evidence that will come out long after the incident is over. Just for a real quick note on that case, a completely innocent person was detained by officers after it was believed that one of them saw what he believed to be an armed robbery when a guy ran into and a very short time later back out of the store. In fact the guy was having a medical crisis and needed sugar (I think he was going into insulin shock). When officers stopped him, he resisted since he had signs of intoxication which was later found to be the result of the medical crisis. The guy ended up going to the hospital after being injured by the officers but for minor injuries. So we had a completely innocent man who was having a medical issue that had force used against him by officers. The Supreme Court ruled in the officer's favor because even though the facts later came out that the guy was innocent, the officers had no way of knowing that at that moment in time. Their actions were reasonable from their viewpoint. 

Again, it is easy to sit back and criticize when you are not on the ground fighting and a gun is not a few inches from you with a guy struggling maybe to get the gun. People have that luxury of 20/20 hindsight. The Supreme Court says that legally we have to look at it from the eyes of the guy in the fight. 

None of that means the officers were correct and maybe they will be charged with the incident. Neither does a video seen from a different viewpoint mean that they are guilty. 

What is a shame is that no one wants to find out what really happened and simply wants to convict the officers. Much like the Freddie Gray fiasco in Baltimore showed us, a rush to judgment is very easy but may not render the truth.

 Assuming that the suspect really did have a gun, was pointing it at people and had it within reach in his pocket,  who can look at that video and tell me that the officers were not in any danger?  With nothing more than that if video people are demanding a conviction for murder of the officers.  That shows that rational thinking is no longer available in incidents like this. 

 And again and again and again… The blame never seemsto be on the person who violated the law but resisting the officers.  This is the person who was given lawful commands by an officer and refuse to do so.  These people are always made out to be angels and victims of an illegal system.  Do you know why officers almost always are found not guilty  in cases like this? It is because the law is on their side. If an officer tells you to stop then you have to stop. If he believes you have a weapon and orders you to the ground then you had better get on the ground. We can look at some US Supreme Court cases and while they often go against  officers on illegal searches, they almost always side with the police on uses of force or issues of safety. In Pennsylvania v. Mimms they said that an officer  can order a driver out of a vehicle. In Maryland v. Wilson  they extended the officers' authority to ordering passengers out of the vehicle. In Plumhoff v. Rickard a unanimous nearly Supreme Court (2 justices agreed with parts if the ruling)  that officers were not acting unlawfully when they fired several shots into a fleeing vehicle and not only killed the driver but the passenger who was just sitting there.  That case was fairly recent being only in 2014. 

Again and it is so easy,  when the police tell you to stop ..... stop. 

[BLUEDOVE3]

I agree, you should comply with officers on the scene. But no deserves to die because he has a gun. Reminds me of this documentary I saw where a white guy walks down the street with his rifle and isn't bothered. But a person of color does the same thing and yep, he was stopped.

[tvc184]

9 minutes ago, BLUEDOVE3 said:

I agree, you should comply with officers on the scene. But no deserves to die because he has a gun. Reminds me of this documentary I saw where a white guy walks down the street with his rifle and isn't bothered. But a person of color does the same thing and yep, he was stopped.

Did he really die "because he had a gun"? 

I would agree 100% it's a cop walked up and said you've got a gun and shot him. From what I saw on the video the officer ordered him to the ground, then tackled him to the ground when he refused and he still continue to fight and during that fight the officer yelled that he found a gun. Even when they found the gun (supposedly since we do not know) and an officer pulled out a gun, the guy continued to fight.  That is not being killed because you have a gun. Killed because he had a gun is nothing but a smoke screen. 

[baddog]

20 minutes ago, BLUEDOVE3 said:

I agree, you should comply with officers on the scene. But no deserves to die because he has a gun. Reminds me of this documentary I saw where a white guy walks down the street with his rifle and isn't bothered. But a person of color does the same thing and yep, he was stopped.

Not in Jasper.

[team first]

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2nd video 

[BS Wildcats]

6 hours ago, BLUEDOVE3 said:

I agree, you should comply with officers on the scene. But no deserves to die because he has a gun. Reminds me of this documentary I saw where a white guy walks down the street with his rifle and isn't bothered. But a person of color does the same thing and yep, he was stopped.

Thought you were gone, since we never got a response from you on the Col. West video.

[NDNation]

19 hours ago, team first said:

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2nd video 

The Camera turns away for a couple of seconds.

[bullets13]

On July 6, 2016 at 3:14 PM, BLUEDOVE3 said:

I agree, you should comply with officers on the scene. But no deserves to die because he has a gun. Reminds me of this documentary I saw where a white guy walks down the street with his rifle and isn't bothered. But a person of color does the same thing and yep, he was stopped.

The whole facts of this case have yet to come out, but if you think race, rather than the circumstances of the two scenarios, dictated officer reactions and responses, I don't know what to tell you. There's a major difference between a guy who's obviously making a scene as an activist (while LEGALLY carrying a gun) in a documentary, versus a guy pointing a pistol at and threatening someone.  Common sense would dictate that officers would handle the situations differently.  They have no reason or legal authority to disarm or detain the protester, even if he was being a moron.  They have every reason to disarm the man who was pointing his weapon at and threatening people.  This guy was no activist.  Not only was a he a felon, with no legal right to a gun, he had threatened somebody's life with his gun moments before, which is why the police were called in the first place.  There's a HUGE difference between the two incidents you're comparing, and it isn't skin color.

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

 

 

[Sports10]

On July 6, 2016 at 3:14 PM, BLUEDOVE3 said:

I agree, you should comply with officers on the scene. But no deserves to die because he has a gun. Reminds me of this documentary I saw where a white guy walks down the street with his rifle and isn't bothered. But a person of color does the same thing and yep, he was stopped.

Comments like this are where the problems lie. Put yourself in the cops shoes and see how you handle the situation. I'll never take up for all cops, some are as corrupt as anyone. However, anyone who watches the video of this and can see the struggle and blames this on skin color is what is causing problems in this country. I have no idea if this guy deserved to be shot or not, but when he decided to resist arrest, anything from that point on is on him. Black, white or whatever. Making these things a race issue is what leads to what happened in Dallas last night. Instead of always crying victim why don't people comply with police officers and this wouldn't happen nearly as often. Now I absolutely believe there have been instances where cops shot black men that did not deserve to be shot, but they have shot whit men just the same. But screaming racism every time something happens to a black man make this situation worse not better. 

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

17 minutes ago, Sports10 said:

Comments like this are where the problems lie. Put yourself in the cops shoes and see how you handle the situation. I'll never take up for all cops, some are as corrupt as anyone. However, anyone who watches the video of this and can see the struggle and blames this on skin color is what is causing problems in this country. I have no idea if this guy deserved to be shot or not, but when he decided to resist arrest, anything from that point on is on him. Black, white or whatever. Making these things a race issue is what leads to what happened in Dallas last night. Instead of always crying victim why don't people comply with police officers and this wouldn't happen nearly as often. Now I absolutely believe there have been instances where cops shot black men that did not deserve to be shot, but they have shot whit men just the same. But screaming racism every time something happens to a black man make this situation worse not better. 

Maybe he didn't resist arrest at all and was getting his ID for the officer hence shot in the arm, just a thought. (Minnesota) 

[Sports10]

35 minutes ago, Mr. Buddy Garrity said:

Maybe he didn't resist arrest at all and was getting his ID for the officer hence shot in the arm, just a thought. (Minnesota) 

I agree 100% on the Minnesota shooting. Not all facts are out, but seems like cop was the one in the wrong. I was referring to the Baton Rouge shooting, which at first glance looks like victim could have avoided ending. However, evidence could change my mind on either of these.

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

6 minutes ago, Sports10 said:

I agree 100% on the Minnesota shooting. Not all facts are out, but seems like cop was the one in the wrong. I was referring to the Baton Rouge shooting, which at first glance looks like victim could have avoided ending. However, evidence could changed mind on either of these.

Yeah I seen a interview with that store owner, who btw has a great mural up of the deceased victim by his store, kinda conflicting information from what I actually heard than what's posted on here of course. That one video of the killing is crazy but the other one……. Sheesh, sickening to say the least. 

[BLUEDOVE3]

On 7/6/2016 at 3:33 PM, baddog said:

Not in Jasper.

And you do know why, don't you?

[BLUEDOVE3]

On 7/7/2016 at 9:17 PM, BS Wildcats said:

Thought you were gone, since we never got a response from you on the Col. West video.

Not sure what you are referring to but I must have missed the thread or comments.

[BLUEDOVE3]

22 hours ago, bullets13 said:

The whole facts of this case have yet to come out, but if you think race, rather than the circumstances of the two scenarios, dictated officer reactions and responses, I don't know what to tell you. There's a major difference between a guy who's obviously making a scene as an activist (while LEGALLY carrying a gun) in a documentary, versus a guy pointing a pistol at and threatening someone.  Common sense would dictate that officers would handle the situations differently.  They have no reason or legal authority to disarm or detain the protester, even if he was being a moron.  They have every reason to disarm the man who was pointing his weapon at and threatening people.  This guy was no activist.  Not only was a he a felon, with no legal right to a gun, he had threatened somebody's life with his gun moments before, which is why the police were called in the first place.  There's a HUGE difference between the two incidents you're comparing, and it isn't skin color.

The store owner said the victim was in good spirits  right before the incident. Just because you have a record does not mean you are fair game for killing. And you need to validate the truth from fiction before we can validate the 911 call.

[stevenash]

2 minutes ago, BLUEDOVE3 said:

The store owner said the victim was in good spirits  right before the incident. Just because you have a record does not mean you are fair game for killing. And you need to validate the truth from fiction before we can validate the 911 call.

Then are you saying its too early to be making judgments/declarations about what was the real cause?

 

[BLUEDOVE3]

Everybody experiences are different based mainly on race from MY EXPERIENCES! As I have said before, I have had two encounters where police have pulled out their guns on me. It is not a good feeling and something I think most won't forget. 

[thetragichippy]

Why would a felon in procession of a gun resist a verbal command, a tazer, and finally a physical take down?

Everyone close your eyes and pretend this guy is a love one of yours. If this was my Son(and that is even hard for me imagine because of the hurt), I would be so disappointed in HIS actions. I would be mad as hell at the cops, but I would be disappointed in MY Son. I would know deep down it could of been prevented had he just followed the officers commands.

Justified or not, had the man complied we would 99.99% not be discussing this. 

I was discussing on Facebook with some people and found out even highly educated people have no clue of their rights versus cops rights. One guy told me that a cop could not legally handcuff you until he told you why he was putting the handcuffs on. WRONG!  I gave a scenario of a guy with a gun in his pocket, with a cop repeatedly  asking him to put his hands up. I said when would it be OK for the cop to fire on the suspect. One of the 3 answers was "when the suspect reaches in his pocket, pulls the gun out and points it at the officer"  He said none of the answers were correct. "A perceived threat is not a reason to use lethal force". He thought the suspect must fire first so the cop could "meet lethal force with lethal force". I could not convince him otherwise.

We have people on social media wrongly telling folks "their legal rights", and I think that is the root of the problem. Most of the deaths could have been prevented had they complied. Most of these deaths have people resisting.  Stop RESISTING! 

I know cops make mistakes and their are crooked ones. If nothing else, not resisting increases your odds that you live.......

We need a smart Cop that knows the law and case law to make a post about when lethal force can be used. Just sayin......might save a life