SETX Shortcomings

[WOSgrad]

38 minutes ago, robanadana said:

Making my point about population decreasing. It took WOS moving to 4A Div. 2 to accomplish it.

While I understand what you are saying and I know you so I know that you are not suggesting this, I kinda bristle at how this post is worded because it leaves open the implication that WO-S' recent success is due to playing "inferior" teams.  WO-S is playing in the class and division that it size dictates as stated by the UIL.  Neither they nor Navarro nor Gilmer nor Sweetwater should have to apologize for where they are for all they did was what every school in the State of Texas did, count the heads of students attending (well, okay Livingston didn't do that) and wait for the UIL to tell them what class, division and district to play in.  The playoff opponents have not been determined by them but again by the UIL.

I realize that I have furthered your argument and I didn't mean to dispute it.  But let's all remember, smaller schools don't always mean inferior schools.

[Brubaker]

1 hour ago, WOSgrad said:

I get a little nervous about WO-S being appointed the standard bearer in this subject.  Remember that for all of the success WO-S has enjoyed, even we Mustang fans had to wait 28 years between state championships.

This was part of my point earlier in this thread.  Even WOS has had fairly lengthy droughts where they bailed out in the 2nd round territory.  Difference is at WOS, that is considered a drought, where other programs rightfully see that as a banner season.  I still go back to the fact that the thread was focused on WOS success due to the current senior class and their unbelievable run... it's just not realistic to make this 3 year run the standard.

[PlayActionPass]

8 minutes ago, Brubaker said:

This was part of my point earlier in this thread.  Even WOS has had fairly lengthy droughts where they bailed out in the 2nd round territory.  Difference is at WOS, that is considered a drought, where other programs rightfully see that as a banner season.  I still go back to the fact that the thread was focused on WOS success due to the current senior class and their unbelievable run... it's just not realistic to make this 3 year run the standard.

I'm not saying that 3 State Championships in a row is the standard.

What I'm really trying to discover is what is the reason for long term, continued success that leads to the possibility of State Championships and repeated deep runs in the playoffs.

This thread is about the intangibles, those Mystic qualities that so many are trying to find. Is it about the discipline, the work ethic, the attention to detail?

What is the WOS formula? What is the Mustang secret?

And why can't anyone else figure it out and do the same thing?

 

[Brubaker]

I think there has been lots of very good and real explanations in these 3 pages. 

[PlayActionPass]

I think this is great stuff. Exactly what I was looking for when I started this thread. 

However, I am a little surprised and disappointed that I haven't heard from a few folks on what they are missing that WOS has.

[Tigers2010]

4 minutes ago, PlayActionPass said:

I think this is great stuff. Exactly what I was looking for when I started this thread. 

However, I am a little surprised and disappointed that I haven't heard from a few folks on what they are missing that WOS has.

Do you expect people to get on here and say "Well here at ____________ our athletes stink, our coaches are terrible, our parents do not support the program, our district is too hard??? This thread is just awkward. 3 pages of explanations on what it take to win and you still act like your looking for someone to give you whatever point you want to make.

 

[PlayActionPass]

13 minutes ago, Tigers2010 said:

Do you expect people to get on here and say "Well here at ____________ our athletes stink, our coaches are terrible, our parents do not support the program, our district is too hard??? This thread is just awkward. 3 pages of explanations on what it take to win and you still act like your looking for someone to give you whatever point you want to make.

 

Well, maybe.

I mean what is wrong with saying, at _____________ High School we have the quality coaches, and the discipline and the work ethic we just don't have the athletes to consistently win at the level we would like to.

That is called self reflection or more importantly being honest about your program and what you really are.

[Tigers2010]

16 minutes ago, PlayActionPass said:

Well, maybe.

I mean what is wrong with saying, at _____________ High School we have the quality coaches, and the discipline and the work ethic we just don't have the athletes to consistently win at the level we would like to.

That is called self reflection or more importantly being honest about your program and what you really are.

Everybody seems to have a good grasp on who they are. 3 pages worth of realistic expectations and reasons for success/reasons for failure. What specific schools do you want people to get on and say "_________coach is terrible, he is the reason for failure", or _____________has terrible athletes, that is why they will never win state". It is not appropriate to get on here and bash teenagers athletic ability or bash coaches. Everybody has been very honest and realistic. Again, what are you fishing for? Certain schools to admit their coaches are the problem?

[PlayActionPass]

3 minutes ago, Tigers2010 said:

Everybody seems to have a good grasp on who they are. 3 pages worth of realistic expectations and reasons for success/reasons for failure. What specific schools do you want people to get on and say "_________coach is terrible, he is the reason for failure", or _____________has terrible athletes, that is why they will never win state". It is not appropriate to get on here and bash teenagers athletic ability or bash coaches. Everybody has been very honest and realistic. Again, what are you fishing for? Certain schools to admit their coaches are the problem?

No sir, not looking for any one school or any one problem.

Not looking for anybody  to bash teenagers or specific coaches.

Just wondering why we in the SETX area, the Golden Triangle, can't produce more champions.

And what we think the causes are, this is not a fishing expedition. 

[Tigers2010]

1 minute ago, PlayActionPass said:

No sir, not looking for any one school or any one problem.

Not looking for anybody  to bash teenagers or specific coaches.

Just wondering why we in the SETX area, the Golden Triangle, can't produce more champions.

And what we think the causes are, this is not a fishing expedition. 

To answer the question, I think SETX is at a disadvantage compared to the Houston schools as well as the DFW area. I think, in those areas, it is not hard to stack a program. Their is a greater number of school and options, and it is not hard for parents and players to get to the school they desire. I would be willing to bet they have A TON of "move ins" and "transfers" every single year. In SETX, the majority of the players on teams, have been in that community for their whole lives. In my opinion, it is like Little League teams playing agains Select Teams. Every now and then you will have a great group of players all come from the same class and you make those deep runs, but more often than not, we are just significantly over matched the deeper you go.

I could be wrong. Just my guess.

[WOSgrad]

1 hour ago, PlayActionPass said:

Well, maybe.

I mean what is wrong with saying, at _____________ High School we have the quality coaches, and the discipline and the work ethic we just don't have the athletes to consistently win at the level we would like to.

That is called self reflection or more importantly being honest about your program and what you really are.

If that is what you are looking for, I fear you may not find it.  In other threads which kind of deal with the same issue, there seems to be only one deficiency which is consistently (and I feel for the most part, wrongly) noted.

Of course, none of us will probably ever know every key to putting a championship team on the field.  If we did, we probably would not be posting here but rather setting up meetings with Neumann, Faircloth, Harrison, Mathews et al and commanding a large fee to do so.  And that is probably because we would probably find out that those keys can be pretty fluid.

[PlayActionPass]

3 minutes ago, Tigers2010 said:

To answer the question, I think SETX is at a disadvantage compared to the Houston schools as well as the DFW area. I think, in those areas, it is not hard to stack a program. Their is a greater number of school and options, and it is not hard for parents and players to get to the school they desire. I would be willing to bet they have A TON of "move ins" and "transfers" every single year. In SETX, the majority of the players on teams, have been in that community for their whole lives. In my opinion, it is like Little League teams playing agains Select Teams. Every now and then you will have a great group of players all come from the same class and you make those deep runs, but more often than not, we are just significantly over matched the deeper you go.

I could be wrong. Just my guess.

I think you make a very good point. It is easy to recruit in the metropolitan area. Parents tend to gravitate to the schools where there kids can receive the best coaching or have the greatest opportunity for success.

In rural areas there are natural rivalries (i.e. MCM) and this does not lend itself to the combining of talent to win Championships.

For example, nobody would ever even consider moving from PNG to Nederland for football purposes. Regardless of how many times in a row the Indians lost MCM. But imagine if the best talent from these two schools was combined into one program, with the best coaches from both staffs, with all the financial resources from the two districts combined, what would you have?

[Tigers2010]

1 minute ago, PlayActionPass said:

I think you make a very good point. It is easy to recruit in the metropolitan area. Parents tend to gravitate to the schools where there kids can receive the best coaching or have the greatest opportunity for success.

In rural areas there are natural rivalries (i.e. MCM) and this does not lend itself to the combining of talent to win Championships.

For example, nobody would ever even consider moving from PNG to Nederland for football purposes. Regardless of how many times in a row the Indians lost MCM. But imagine if the best talent from these two schools was combined into one program, with the best coaches from both staffs, with all the financial resources from the two districts combined, what would you have?

Exactly. If I am a parent of a Stud QB, or whatever position, I would make that hop, skip, and jump to get him to the school that can get him that exposure. I would guess this happens ALL THE TIME.  Meanwhile, here in SETX, were fielding the same players that have grown up here.

[PlayActionPass]

5 minutes ago, WOSgrad said:

If that is what you are looking for, I fear you may not find it.  In other threads which kind of deal with the same issue, there seems to be only one deficiency which is consistently (and I feel for the most part, wrongly) noted.

Of course, none of us will probably never know every key to putting a championship team on the field.  If we did, we probably would not be posting here but rather setting up meetings with Neumann, Faircloth, Harrison, Mathews et al and commanding a large fee to do so.  And that is probably because we would probably find out that those keys can be pretty fluid.

We may not KNOW, but we are a pretty educated bunch who watch a lot of football. We know what great teams look like and we know what our teams are missing. Just looking for educated opinions and to get some of us really thinking about our programs and what we do well and what we don't do well.

[Alpha Wolf]

2 hours ago, WOSgrad said:

I am still not crazy about classes being split into divisions at the start of the season as I don't care for some of the administrative and other problems that is causes.  Some of those are more important than we think, while I'll acknowledge that others are merely aesthetic.

That being said, if the purpose of the DI/DII split at the beginning of the season is to level the playing field as the UIL has claimed, then to not have it exist in the two classes (6A and 5A) where the playing field is not anywhere near level, goes against the historical intent of the UIL's starting a DI and DII in the first place. Recall that in 1990, when two champions were recognized in a UIL classification for the first time, it was done in only one class...Class 6A (then 5A).  It was 8 years before this was tried in any other class and 14 years before it was done in any class below 5A (then 4A).  Yet since then the inequity has occurred in the smaller classes and not in the larger ones since that time, leading to a need for a preseason split in all classes except the 2 largest ones?  I think not and it is this odd manner of UIL dealing that opens it up to the criticism that its decisions are based primarily on financial considerations.

To sum it up, I think the split needs to be an all or nothing proposition and, if you are going to do it, extend it to all classes.

So just me playing around using the current numbers and 21 and 22 5A, is this what you are saying is up for vote?  More driving miles, more level playing field...

 

5A-D1 District

Baytown Lee 1669

Conroe Caney Creek 1976.5

Crosby 1668

Humble 1719.5

Humble Kingwood Park 1836

Nederland 1596

New Caney 1706.5

New Caney Porter 1787.5

Port Arthur Memorial 2098

 

5A-D2 District

Beaumont Central 1471

Beaumont Ozen 1121

Dayton 1494

Livingston 1130

Lumberton 1157

Mt Belvieu Barbers Hill 1527

Port Neches-Groves 1447

Splendora 1106

Vidor 1414.5

[robanadana]

2 hours ago, LCM17 said:

Do you think if they combined LCM/WOS with these same group of kids that Orange would not have went deep in the playoffs the last few years if they were 5a? I think we would have around 1700 kids. 

Absolutely. Playing mostly seniors, playing one way, backups for injuries. It makes a HUGE difference.

[WOSgrad]

7 minutes ago, Jag Insider said:

So just me playing around using the current numbers and 21 and 22 5A, is this what you are saying is up for vote?  More driving miles, more level playing field...

 

5A-D1 District

Baytown Lee 1669

Conroe Caney Creek 1976.5

Crosby 1668

Humble 1719.5

Humble Kingwood Park 1836

Nederland 1596

New Caney 1706.5

New Caney Porter 1787.5

Port Arthur Memorial 2098

 

5A-D2 District

Beaumont Central 1471

Beaumont Ozen 1121

Dayton 1494

Livingston 1130

Lumberton 1157

Mt Belvieu Barbers Hill 1527

Port Neches-Groves 1447

Splendora 1106

Vidor 1414.5

Yes, that is what the 5A supers will be voting on a referendum ballot.  If they approve it, it would go into effect for the 2018 alignment.

[oldschool2]

I'm surprised nobody is noticing the connection of my previous question and success.

I asked what schools have coaches that have been there a decade or more.  Any sport.  Boys or girls.

Every single response I got was a consistently competitive school in that sport.  I'm not saying it's the ONLY thing that contributes to success.  But it's an awful funny coincidence.

[robanadana]

7 hours ago, WOSgrad said:

While I understand what you are saying and I know you so I know that you are not suggesting this, I kinda bristle at how this post is worded because it leaves open the implication that WO-S' recent success is due to playing "inferior" teams.  WO-S is playing in the class and division that it size dictates as stated by the UIL.  Neither they nor Navarro nor Gilmer nor Sweetwater should have to apologize for where they are for all they did was what every school in the State of Texas did, count the heads of students attending (well, okay Livingston didn't do that) and wait for the UIL to tell them what class, division and district to play in.  The playoff opponents have not been determined by them but again by the UIL.

I realize that I have furthered your argument and I didn't mean to dispute it.  But let's all remember, smaller schools don't always mean inferior schools.

I'm not really talking about small schools nor was I disrespecting WOS; I would have said inferior if I meant inferior. My point is valid...if school size meant nothing then WOS would have beaten Richmond Foster last year. Richmond kept running out defensive line, then backup defensive line, etc. etc. They beat WOS down. It's not apples and apples and it is not a dig at WOS; I respect that school too much for that. However, they wouldn't make three rounds of 5A ball because they would run out of gas due to lack of depth. Hard to play against a team that suits up 40 - 50 seniors. Cedar Park, 5A Div. 2 champs last year enrollment 1949. Seriously! I could merge all the Orange schools and not get that number.

[Tiger33]

9 minutes ago, robanadana said:

I'm not really talking about small schools nor was I disrespecting WOS; I would have said inferior if I meant inferior. My point is valid...if school size meant nothing then WOS would have beaten Richmond Foster last year. Richmond kept running out defensive line, then backup defensive line, etc. etc. They beat WOS down. It's not apples and apples and it is not a dig at WOS; I respect that school too much for that. However, they wouldn't make three rounds of 5A ball because they would run out of gas due to lack of depth. Hard to play against a team that suits up 40 - 50 seniors. Cedar Park, 5A Div. 2 champs last year enrollment 1949. Seriously! I could merge all the Orange schools and not get that number.

That's why I brought up if we were combined they would be able to be complete in higher divisions.  You do need depth to get far in the playoffs 

[CardinalBacker]

5 hours ago, robanadana said:

Absolutely. Playing mostly seniors, playing one way, backups for injuries. It makes a HUGE difference.

Better yet, give us Newton's entire enrollment and we would still be in 4A D1.... smaller than district rival LCM. We might even win district, LOL. 

[Tiger33]

18 minutes ago, CardinalBacker said:

Better yet, give us Newton's entire enrollment and we would still be in 4A D1.... smaller than district rival LCM. We might even win district, LOL. 

Probably wouldn't have a BC starter tho lol

[Silsbee92]

Keys to Success:

1.  Tradition? Hardly.  It helps for a team to have some, but not if the tradition includes losing.   Change to "Winning Tradition"

2.  Coaching Continuity?  Possibly..  But again... not if there is no success.  If your community/players NEVER or RARELY have to

     endure a change in coaching philosophy it is a big advantage.  There are no short learning curves in those programs. 

     One School...ahem....has 30+ years of coaching philosophy. 

3.  Talented Athletes?  No argument there.  A must, though at the High School Level, one truly gifted athlete gets you a big head start.

      Throw in 2, 3, 4, 5 at one time.  Good lord.  

4.  Community Support?  It helps tremendously.  No athlete can resist the roar of the crowd.  Its intoxicating.

     I personally believe that when talented athletes, not the gifted ones, stay in their community.

     Then encourage acceptance of a philosophy that was there before them, with them and will be there after them, then there can

     be no confusion of what is expected from them.   Success.  

 

Note:  There has to be multiple examples of success.   Championship trophies, collegiate players, professional players, etc.

           Those success stories have to continue to be part of the community to cement the winning philosophy.

 

For our area, West Orange-Stark got it right.  Lucky? Maybe, all winning traditions need a little luck here and there.

It doesn't matter.  That program has found what works for their community.  Why change it....

 

I love when WOS comes to town. It brings out the best in our athletes.    Enjoy their brand of football. 

The last three years of WOS football is kinda like the Greek Spartans of old. 

You can talk noise, no problem, but you'll probably end up at the bottom of a deep hole or piled up next to the others.

 

I'm done. Respect.

#TigerNation

[78Stang]

There has been a huge amount of respect towards the WOS program on this thread and as a WOS fan and alumni it is very humbling. While many have asked the question of what is the magic formula to the Mustangs success, there really is no simple answer. The things that are important is the Community support and the backing of the parents, school administration and building a disciplined attitude in the players. I believe the young men want to win and not let anyone down, especially their teammates or coaches. They know in order to win they must follow team and school rules, be good students and respect coaches and teachers. These young men also from a young age have a strong desire to wear the silver and blue and be winners on and off the field. Let's go Meet Em.

[oldage football]

27 minutes ago, 78Stang said:

There has been a huge amount of respect towards the WOS program on this thread and as a WOS fan and alumni it is very humbling. While many have asked the question of what is the magic formula to the Mustangs success, there really is no simple answer. The things that are important is the Community support and the backing of the parents, school administration and building a disciplined attitude in the players. I believe the young men want to win and not let anyone down, especially their teammates or coaches. They know in order to win they must follow team and school rules, be good students and respect coaches and teachers. These young men also from a young age have a strong desire to wear the silver and blue and be winners on and off the field. Let's go Meet Em.

you summed it up quite nicely my friend