I'd Like To Ask Our Left Leaning Friends Here A Question.

[Tigers2010]

15 hours ago, Remmus said:

Obamacare ain't for everybody.  It was to cover the gap between those that have good employee sponsored care and those that don't.  Some of these people are the hard working minimum wage crowd, also students (who now can stay on their parent's plan...I love this), and some that had crappy plans and wanted to shop around (typically contract workers).  Of course when everyone got insurance, the surge of claims didn't tie out with the current level of rates ...rates went up.  Employer sponsored plans run by the private sector is not the answer.  There's too many getting the shaft that get left out in the cold and rely on emergency room care.  I've previously said the biggest issue with getting a public run plan is the huge fear over another entitlement that will of course raise taxes.  We all know the 1%-ers have been hell bent on not paying a nickle more for the greater good of the society...even to fix roads and bridges.  They want to cut from social programs to pay for everything.

This is about ideology and not healthcare.  Conservatives don't want to be responsible for anyone else's problems.  There is real evidence that enabling bad decisions with a federal program makes things worse.  On the flip side, we need ditch diggers, waitresses, and so on.  Not everyone in society will make it to the middle class or above.  Is all about the type of country we want to live in.  We need to find the right mixture of personal accountability and fairness.

Your damn right, and I do not feel ashamed of that. Again, I work hard for what I have. I do not have much as it is, but I earned it. It pisses me off to know the money I make for my children goes to pay for trash that can't take care of themselves, too lazy to get a job, and don't stop having kids they can't pay for. MY kids deserve MY money. They deserve the life I work to give them. That trash is robbing me and millions of others blind because their lack of effort. But hey, why should they get off their butts? Someone else will pick op the bill.

[LumRaiderFan]

15 hours ago, Remmus said:

Obamacare ain't for everybody.  It was to cover the gap between those that have good employee sponsored care and those that don't.  Some of these people are the hard working minimum wage crowd, also students (who now can stay on their parent's plan...I love this), and some that had crappy plans and wanted to shop around (typically contract workers).  Of course when everyone got insurance, the surge of claims didn't tie out with the current level of rates ...rates went up.  Employer sponsored plans run by the private sector is not the answer.  There's too many getting the shaft that get left out in the cold and rely on emergency room care.  I've previously said the biggest issue with getting a public run plan is the huge fear over another entitlement that will of course raise taxes.  We all know the 1%-ers have been hell bent on not paying a nickle more for the greater good of the society...even to fix roads and bridges.  They want to cut from social programs to pay for everything.

This is about ideology and not healthcare.  Conservatives don't want to be responsible for anyone else's problems.  There is real evidence that enabling bad decisions with a federal program makes things worse.  On the flip side, we need ditch diggers, waitresses, and so on.  Not everyone in society will make it to the middle class or above.  Is all about the type of country we want to live in.  We need to find the right mixture of personal accountability and fairness.

How about we leave all these issues to the states?

You're right. conservatives don't want to be responsible for someone else's problems...why should they?

But of course libs want to be compassionate and take care of all problems, with other people's money.

Centrist, huh???...OK. 

[Tigers2010]

16 minutes ago, LumRaiderFan said:

How about we leave all these issues to the states?

You're right. conservatives don't want to be responsible for someone else's problems...why should they?

But of course libs want to be compassionate and take care of all problems, with other people's money.

Centrist, huh???...OK. 

+1

[Remmus]

27 minutes ago, LumRaiderFan said:

How about we leave all these issues to the states?

You're right. conservatives don't want to be responsible for someone else's problems...why should they?

But of course libs want to be compassionate and take care of all problems, with other people's money.

Centrist, huh???...OK. 

The states need oversight just like the private sector.  I know ur head just exploded, but we'd still be pumping mercury punch in Detroit w/o the Feds.  

[LumRaiderFan]

3 hours ago, Remmus said:

The states need oversight just like the private sector.  I know ur head just exploded, but we'd still be pumping mercury punch in Detroit w/o the Feds.  

Show me where the fed gov provides over site for the state''s business.

Use the Constitution...not your opinion. 

Wow...how did the states ever make it before the recently intrusive fed gov.

I get it now, you are a centrist...you are all for a centrally controlled country.

[stevenash]

3 hours ago, Remmus said:

The states need oversight just like the private sector.  I know ur head just exploded, but we'd still be pumping mercury punch in Detroit w/o the Feds.  

And who will oversee the folks who are overseeing the states?

[AthleticSupporter - Jock]

20 hours ago, Remmus said:

Obamacare ain't for everybody.  It was to cover the gap between those that have good employee sponsored care and those that don't.  Some of these people are the hard working minimum wage crowd, also students (who now can stay on their parent's plan...I love this), and some that had crappy plans and wanted to shop around (typically contract workers).  Of course when everyone got insurance, the surge of claims didn't tie out with the current level of rates ...rates went up.  Employer sponsored plans run by the private sector is not the answer.  There's too many getting the shaft that get left out in the cold and rely on emergency room care.  I've previously said the biggest issue with getting a public run plan is the huge fear over another entitlement that will of course raise taxes.  We all know the 1%-ers have been hell bent on not paying a nickle more for the greater good of the society...even to fix roads and bridges.  They want to cut from social programs to pay for everything.

This is about ideology and not healthcare.  Conservatives don't want to be responsible for anyone else's problems.  There is real evidence that enabling bad decisions with a federal program makes things worse.  On the flip side, we need ditch diggers, waitresses, and so on.  Not everyone in society will make it to the middle class or above.  Is all about the type of country we want to live in.  We need to find the right mixture of personal accountability and fairness.

What do you consider Middle Class?  I understand it to be a combined family income $35-55k. Is that really that hard to accomplish?  And before you say I wouldn't understand because I come from a privileged upbringing, I have family that live below the poverty line (less than 18k per household).  But they made conscious, life decisions that got them in that situation.  

[Remmus]

29 minutes ago, AthleticSupporter - Jock said:

What do you consider Middle Class?  I understand it to be a combined family income $35-55k. Is that really that hard to accomplish?  And before you say I wouldn't understand because I come from a privileged upbringing, I have family that live below the poverty line (less than 18k per household).  But they made conscious, life decisions that got them in that situation.  

Depends on whose numbers you use and where you live.  $35-$55K will having you living in a box in NYC or high dollar parts of California.  My belief is some that are struggling made decisions (usually unwittingly) and sentenced themselves to poverty (dropping out of high school, getting pregnant too young, hunting for baby-daddies/mommas and not husband/wife).  There's an interesting discussion regarding the harm of social programs.  In the comments of an article I was reading about the mess in Chicago, a guy posted this (it's long but worth the read, sorry links given are broken).

Rational_Db8  the PatrioticTraitor • 4 days ago
You can thank white "liberals" *(they're anything but classic liberals) for today's "black culture." It's the white liberal "helping" welfare system that has utterly destroyed the black family and black emphasis on education. Thomas Sowell and a number of others have written extensively about this. Here's a post I put together some time ago on the issue, with some links folks might find interesting:

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You can thank white "liberals" *(they're anything but classic liberals) for today's "black culture." It's the white liberal "helping" welfare system that has utterly destroyed the black family and black emphasis on education. Thomas Sowell and a number of others have written extensively about this. Here's a post I put together some time ago on the issue, with some links folks might find interesting:

In fact in large part we can thank the "Great Society" and liberal policies for the destruction of poor families and the massive inner city problems we have today. It's a horrific situation that's been created all by the 'bleeding hearted compassionate' liberal well meant but disastrously implemented policies and a total failure to ever go back and see what the actual effect of such policies are.

Don't get me wrong here - individuals are very clearly responsible for their own choices - 98% of people who simply choose to finish high school, get a job, and wait to have children until married are never in poverty. Even so, the welfare polices strongly incentivized NOT being married, not waiting to have children, NOT having a father involved in supporting the family, having more and more babies if you're a poor single mother, etc., etc. In other words, those were the "smart" things to do if you were very poor and needed help. Worse, if you were working and on welfare then earned a LITTLE more, you'd lose everything when there was no way you could make it on the small increase in earnings.

All of this was especially true for poor blacks families, which many of these programs targeted far more than poor of other ethnic/racial groups. Just read a little Thomas Sowell on the issue -- he's not only a highly respected economist who grew up in Harlem and dropped out of high school, but went on later to graduate with high honors from Harvard, and he also happens to be black. His work is excellent, ties in historical facts, and is well worth reading. Or respected economist Walter E. Williams, who also happens to be black, along with others on this subject. Here are just a few examples:

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Thomas Sowell compares liberals' claims about blacks to hard cold facts

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There is no question that liberals do an impressive job of expressing concern for blacks. But do the intentions expressed in their words match the actual consequences of their deeds?

 

San Francisco is a classic example of a city unexcelled in its liberalism. But the black population of San Francisco today is less than half of what it was back in 1970, even though the city's total population has grown.

 

Severe restrictions on building housing in San Francisco have driven rents and home prices so high that blacks and other people with low or moderate incomes have been driven out of the city. The same thing has happened in a number of other California communities dominated by liberals.

 

Liberals try to show their concern for the poor by raising the level of minimum wage laws. Yet they show no interest in hard evidence that minimum wage laws create disastrous levels of unemployment among young blacks in this country, as such laws created high unemployment rates among young people in general in European countries.

 

The black family survived centuries of slavery and generations of Jim Crow, but it has disintegrated in the wake of the liberals' expansion of the welfare state. Most black children grew up in homes with two parents during all that time but most grow up with only one parent today.

 

Liberals have pushed affirmative action, supposedly for the benefit of blacks and other minorities. But two recent factual studies show that affirmative action in college admissions has led to black students with every qualification for success being artificially turned into failures by being mismatched with colleges for the sake of racial body count....

 

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For tht matter, it's also blue states where 

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 as proven by nationwide hate crimes compiled by the FBI.

Thomas Sowell: The High Cost of Liberalism, 

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Walter Williams: 

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A six-minute obscenity-laced

 

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has gone viral and was viewed 1.6 million times in less than 24 hours.

 

African-American mom Peggy Hubbard, married with several children, turned on her phone camera sometime Wednesday and let the black community have it, along with the protesters and rioters in St. Louis who protested the death of a young criminal who allegedly pulled a gun on a cop serving a warrant.... [while ignoring the drive by shooting death at the same time of a 9 year old in bed doing her homework]

 

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[Englebert]

Articles, books and volumes have been written on this. Yes, the White liberals are to blame for creating the welfare system that has shackled Blacks (and the poor of all ethnic groups) to the government teet. This has been known for years. But the Liberal media, Black leaders and Liberal social redistribution advocates share as much or probably more of the blame for the continual perpetuation of these horrendous policies. Thus my hatred for Liberals and social welfare programs. The evidence of the ill effects of these programs is abundant and irrefutable, but these people have done nothing but beg for more and more of the same policies that is the very essence of the destruction of the Black family (and the poor).

Many people hold the theory that this welfare system was created and perpetuated as a way to control the Black population. I personally believe that the system was created with good intentions, but is being perpetuated by a combination of good intentions and evil elitist. Many think throwing more and more money at the situation is helping while many others know and condone the ill effects. When Obama was elected eight years ago I was somewhat optimistic that he would address this issue and work to change it. He did not. So he is either too stupid/naïve to recognize a documented catastrophe or he is part of the conspiracy. After seeing his views on the Man-Made Global Warming fallacy, I'm fairly certain the case is the latter.

[westend1]

Repeal Romneycare for all I care.  Doesn't affect me.   But, the guy who thought this up was supposedly a business guru(according to the right)   ACA is almost identical to his plan.

[baddog]

56 minutes ago, Remmus said:

Depends on whose numbers you use and where you live.  $35-$55K will having you living in a box in NYC or high dollar parts of California.  My belief is some that are struggling made decisions (usually unwittingly) and sentenced themselves to poverty (dropping out of high school, getting pregnant too young, hunting for baby-daddies/mommas and not husband/wife).  There's an interesting discussion regarding the harm of social programs.  In the comments of an article I was reading about the mess in Chicago, a guy posted this (it's long but worth the read, sorry links given are broken).

Rational_Db8  the PatrioticTraitor • 4 days ago
You can thank white "liberals" *(they're anything but classic liberals) for today's "black culture." It's the white liberal "helping" welfare system that has utterly destroyed the black family and black emphasis on education. Thomas Sowell and a number of others have written extensively about this. Here's a post I put together some time ago on the issue, with some links folks might find interesting:

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You can thank white "liberals" *(they're anything but classic liberals) for today's "black culture." It's the white liberal "helping" welfare system that has utterly destroyed the black family and black emphasis on education. Thomas Sowell and a number of others have written extensively about this. Here's a post I put together some time ago on the issue, with some links folks might find interesting:

In fact in large part we can thank the "Great Society" and liberal policies for the destruction of poor families and the massive inner city problems we have today. It's a horrific situation that's been created all by the 'bleeding hearted compassionate' liberal well meant but disastrously implemented policies and a total failure to ever go back and see what the actual effect of such policies are.

Don't get me wrong here - individuals are very clearly responsible for their own choices - 98% of people who simply choose to finish high school, get a job, and wait to have children until married are never in poverty. Even so, the welfare polices strongly incentivized NOT being married, not waiting to have children, NOT having a father involved in supporting the family, having more and more babies if you're a poor single mother, etc., etc. In other words, those were the "smart" things to do if you were very poor and needed help. Worse, if you were working and on welfare then earned a LITTLE more, you'd lose everything when there was no way you could make it on the small increase in earnings.

All of this was especially true for poor blacks families, which many of these programs targeted far more than poor of other ethnic/racial groups. Just read a little Thomas Sowell on the issue -- he's not only a highly respected economist who grew up in Harlem and dropped out of high school, but went on later to graduate with high honors from Harvard, and he also happens to be black. His work is excellent, ties in historical facts, and is well worth reading. Or respected economist Walter E. Williams, who also happens to be black, along with others on this subject. Here are just a few examples:

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Thomas Sowell compares liberals' claims about blacks to hard cold facts

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There is no question that liberals do an impressive job of expressing concern for blacks. But do the intentions expressed in their words match the actual consequences of their deeds?

 

San Francisco is a classic example of a city unexcelled in its liberalism. But the black population of San Francisco today is less than half of what it was back in 1970, even though the city's total population has grown.

 

Severe restrictions on building housing in San Francisco have driven rents and home prices so high that blacks and other people with low or moderate incomes have been driven out of the city. The same thing has happened in a number of other California communities dominated by liberals.

 

Liberals try to show their concern for the poor by raising the level of minimum wage laws. Yet they show no interest in hard evidence that minimum wage laws create disastrous levels of unemployment among young blacks in this country, as such laws created high unemployment rates among young people in general in European countries.

 

The black family survived centuries of slavery and generations of Jim Crow, but it has disintegrated in the wake of the liberals' expansion of the welfare state. Most black children grew up in homes with two parents during all that time but most grow up with only one parent today.

 

Liberals have pushed affirmative action, supposedly for the benefit of blacks and other minorities. But two recent factual studies show that affirmative action in college admissions has led to black students with every qualification for success being artificially turned into failures by being mismatched with colleges for the sake of racial body count....

 

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For tht matter, it's also blue states where 

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 as proven by nationwide hate crimes compiled by the FBI.

Thomas Sowell: The High Cost of Liberalism, 

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, and 

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Walter Williams: 

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A six-minute obscenity-laced

 

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has gone viral and was viewed 1.6 million times in less than 24 hours.

 

African-American mom Peggy Hubbard, married with several children, turned on her phone camera sometime Wednesday and let the black community have it, along with the protesters and rioters in St. Louis who protested the death of a young criminal who allegedly pulled a gun on a cop serving a warrant.... [while ignoring the drive by shooting death at the same time of a 9 year old in bed doing her homework]

 

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PBS commentator and author

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Thanks for this post. Just when I think you are a lefty liberal, you redeem yourself with stuff like this. I would imagine that Thomas Sowell is referred to as an "Uncle Tom".

[Englebert]

7 minutes ago, baddog said:

Thanks for this post. Just when I think you are a lefty liberal, you redeem yourself with stuff like this. I would imagine that Thomas Sowell is referred to as an "Uncle Tom".

Yes he is to many on the Left.

[Remmus]

9 minutes ago, baddog said:

Thanks for this post. Just when I think you are a lefty liberal, you redeem yourself with stuff like this. I would imagine that Thomas Sowell is referred to as an "Uncle Tom".

Disregard Englebert sir...lol.  Thank you for acknowledging my Centrist position.

I haven't read any of Sowell's work but plan to do it soon.  I'm pretty sure he's been called an Uncle Tom and more.  For me that's another form of race card.  It's used to punish or shame.  

That comment I posted came from Breitbart.

[Englebert]

9 minutes ago, Remmus said:

Disregard Englebert sir...lol.  Thank you for acknowledging my Centrist position.

I haven't read any of Sowell's work but plan to do it soon.  I'm pretty sure he's been called an Uncle Tom and more.  For me that's another form of race card.  It's used to punish or shame.  

That comment I posted came from Breitbart.

Once you read Sowell's work you will/should have a very hard time maintaining your socially Liberal stance. And please don't stop with him. There are many more authors espousing the same ideas from many different viewpoints. These works are tough to find due to their "unpopularity" (meaning they are a direct assault on the Liberal viewpoint and thus unworthy of publication and dissemination).

[Remmus]

43 minutes ago, Englebert said:

Articles, books and volumes have been written on this. Yes, the White liberals are to blame for creating the welfare system that has shackled Blacks (and the poor of all ethnic groups) to the government teet. This has been known for years. But the Liberal media, Black leaders and Liberal social redistribution advocates share as much or probably more of the blame for the continual perpetuation of these horrendous policies. Thus my hatred for Liberals and social welfare programs. The evidence of the ill effects of these programs is abundant and irrefutable, but these people have done nothing but beg for more and more of the same policies that is the very essence of the destruction of the Black family (and the poor).

Many people hold the theory that this welfare system was created and perpetuated as a way to control the Black population. I personally believe that the system was created with good intentions, but is being perpetuated by a combination of good intentions and evil elitist. Many think throwing more and more money at the situation is helping while many others know and condone the ill effects. When Obama was elected eight years ago I was somewhat optimistic that he would address this issue and work to change it. He did not. So he is either too stupid/naïve to recognize a documented catastrophe or he is part of the conspiracy. After seeing his views on the Man-Made Global Warming fallacy, I'm fairly certain the case is the latter.

You had me until you start getting into President Obama and Global Warming fallacy.

When Jimmy Carter got the project buildings constructed, the intention was to create a short-term answer to affordable housing.  We all know how that went...lol.  Well intentioned, but horrible lasting consequences.  If the gas crunch didn't happen, I'm wondering what a 2nd term of Carter vs a 1st term of Reagan would have looked like.  Reagan ain't no saint either.  A lot of hardship that all these angry small town Americans are feeling was kicked off by the policies of Reagan.  I'm sure many want examples.  I don't want to co-op this thread.  I'm also curious if the good times would have kept rolling if Gore wasn't cheated in Florida.

Regarding the destruction of the black family ...and keep in mind we're talking about poorer blacks and not the Huxtables, the crack epidemic played its part too.  Those projects that Carter built sure came in handy has drug dealer corporate headquarters in every major city.  It's long believed by African Americans that Reagan pretty much delivered drugs to the inner cities.  You may not believe any of this, but it's a strongly touted belief by many African American scholars, activist, & politicians: 

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[Remmus]

I know that thread I sent could be picked a part, but the story sure ties in well with other incidents of US shady dealing around the world.  I keep mentioning the book Overthrow by Stephen Kinzer. It's really crazy how much dirt the US has in it's past.

[Englebert]

2 minutes ago, Remmus said:

You had me until you start getting into President Obama and Global Warming fallacy.

When Jimmy Carter got the project buildings constructed, the intention was to create a short-term answer to affordable housing.  We all know how that went...lol.  Well intentioned, but horrible lasting consequences.  If the gas crunch didn't happen, I'm wondering what a 2nd term of Carter vs a 1st term of Reagan would have looked like.  Reagan ain't no saint either.  A lot of hardship that all these angry small town Americans are feeling was kicked off by the policies of Reagan.  I'm sure many want examples.  I don't want to co-op this thread.  I'm also curious if the good times would have kept rolling if Gore wasn't cheated in Florida.

Regarding the destruction of the black family ...and keep in mind we're talking about poorer blacks and not the Huxtables, the crack epidemic played its part too.  Those projects that Carter built sure came in handy has drug dealer corporate headquarters in every major city.  It's long believed by African Americans that Reagan pretty much delivered drugs to the inner cities.  You may not believe any of this, but it's a strongly touted belief by many African American scholars, activist, & politicians: 

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That's why I touted the "theory" of social welfares programs being perpetuated to control Blacks. The belief from your post (in bold) is an integral of that theory, and is discussed at length in many "obscure" publications.

[Englebert]

12 minutes ago, Remmus said:

I know that thread I sent could be picked a part, but the story sure ties in well with other incidents of US shady dealing around the world.  I keep mentioning the book Overthrow by Stephen Kinzer. It's really crazy how much dirt the US has in it's past.

Can you name a country that has less dirt in it's past that you hold in high regard?

Do you believe the American citizens try to correct the wrongs of our past less than citizens of other countries?

Did the Americans citizens not work extremely hard to correct the wrongs of recent history in the face of overwhelming odds due to the biased Liberal Media and Political establishment machine? (I had to throw this one in there. LOL)

[Reagan]

1 hour ago, westend1 said:

Repeal Romneycare for all I care.  Doesn't affect me.   But, the guy who thought this up was supposedly a business guru(according to the right)   ACA is almost identical to his plan.

Romney's not a conservative.  So, him doing this never did surprise me. 

[Remmus]

6 minutes ago, Englebert said:

Can you name a country that has less dirt in it's past that you hold in high regard?

Do you believe the American citizens try to correct the wrongs of our past less than citizens of other countries?

I don't know much about any other country.  That's the honest truth.  I can intelligently speak about medieval times in Europe, but as for the modern world, I'm pretty much bogged down with learning our country.

America has its own form of propaganda to present the image we want the rest of the world to see.  Of course most other countries do the same.  America has put in policies and laws to attempt to correct past wrongs, but I'm always suspicious as we should be.

[Englebert]

9 minutes ago, Remmus said:

I don't know much about any other country.  That's the honest truth.  I can intelligently speak about medieval times in Europe, but as for the modern world, I'm pretty much bogged down with learning our country.

America has its own form of propaganda to present the image we want the rest of the world to see.  Of course most other countries do the same.  America has put in policies and laws to attempt to correct past wrongs, but I'm always suspicious as we should be.

I have Bing and Google so I'm an expert on anything you want to discuss.

I'm not a scholar on any other country, but practically every country just by nature is going to have it's fair share of dirt. Keeping a scorecard of who is worse would fall to the "eye of the beholder" and a fool's errand. That's why I'm not infatuated with past wrongs but contemplate more on where we are headed. (This does not mean we should not learn from our past mistakes though.)

I am perplexed at your last statement (in which I whole-heartedly agree). Doesn't it seem semi-paradoxical for you to always be suspicious of our government but call for bigger and bigger government?

[Remmus]

The Norwegians and Canadians sure like their government health care.

[Remmus]

4 minutes ago, Englebert said:

I have Bing and Google so I'm an expert on anything you want to discuss.

I'm not a scholar on any other country, but practically every country just by nature is going to have it's fair share of dirt. Keeping a scorecard of who is worse would fall to the "eye of the beholder" and a fool's errand. That's why I'm not infatuated with past wrongs but contemplate more on where we are headed. (This does not mean we should not learn from our past mistakes though.)

I am perplexed at your last statement (in which I whole-heartedly agree). Doesn't it seem semi-paradoxical for you to always be suspicious of our government but call for bigger and bigger government?

Just depends on the topic.  I'll deal with bigger government if my family has guaranteed health care and I don't go broke if any of us gets really sick.  I'm suspicious of motives when it comes to fiscal policies.

[Englebert]

34 minutes ago, Remmus said:

Just depends on the topic.  I'll deal with bigger government if my family has guaranteed health care and I don't go broke if any of us gets really sick.  I'm suspicious of motives when it comes to fiscal policies.

Guaranteed healthcare means the government is paying for you therefore is able to dictate every facet of your life, including what you can eat and drink. And socialized medicine kills the entrepreneurship and innoviations in the profession. Government will try to control costs, therefore doctors will be paid less and less, leading to the best and brightest not entering into the profession. There is a reason the U.S. healthcare system is the greatest in the world. I'm perplexed as to why some want to change that.

And once you read Sowell's writings and some others I think you will become suspicious of the motives behind social welfare programs also, especially Socialized healthcare.

[Englebert]

19 minutes ago, Remmus said:

The Norwegians and Canadians sure like their government health care.

When they can get it.

Can you name some of the many, many world-class physicians, new drugs, innovative surgical procedures, and state-of-the-art prosthetics and machines that have emanated from these countries? Me neither.