Tobie, lets try an experiment

[stevenash]

I am going to post an incident from yesterday ( that, of course, you and Mr. Kaepernick will NOT be kneeling for or protesting).  Lets try keeping track of these incidents- I, and perhaps some others on this board, will post every incident like the one below and you and big girl and 2 wedge and other "associates"  can post each incident where an innocent unarmed black man was killed by police.  We will simply keep the tally going and find out how significant the numbers are and exactly where our social problems lie.  How does that sound to you?

 

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[BS Wildcats]

8 minutes ago, stevenash said:

I am going to post an incident from yesterday ( that, of course, you and Mr. Kaepernick will NOT be kneeling for or protesting).  Lets try keeping track of these incidents- I, and perhaps some others on this board, will post every incident like the one below and you and big girl and 2 wedge and other "associates"  can post each incident where an innocent unarmed black man was killed by police.  We will simply keep the tally going and find out how significant the numbers are and exactly where our social problems lie.  How does that sound to you?

 

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Why did they not tell the race of the shooter?  Guess it doesn't fit the narrative!

[stevenash]

9 minutes ago, BS Wildcats said:

Why did they not tell the race of the shooter?  Guess it doesn't fit the narrative!

Everyone knows PRECISELY why the race of the shooter was not revealed.  

[BS Wildcats]

13 minutes ago, stevenash said:

Everyone knows PRECISELY why the race of the shooter was not revealed.  

Exactly

[WOSgrad]

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[WOSgrad]

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[six burg]

1 hour ago, stevenash said:

I am going to post an incident from yesterday ( that, of course, you and Mr. Kaepernick will NOT be kneeling for or protesting).  Lets try keeping track of these incidents- I, and perhaps some others on this board, will post every incident like the one below and you and big girl and 2 wedge and other "associates"  can post each incident where an innocent unarmed black man was killed by police.  We will simply keep the tally going and find out how significant the numbers are and exactly where our social problems lie.  How does that sound to you?

 

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I worry about a bad cop shooting my son saying he thought he had a gun. Then i must confriont the bad cop

[77]

if you teach your son to obey the police officer and treat him with respect I do believe your son will be fine , oh and dont break the law!

[six burg]

4 minutes ago, 77 said:

if you teach your son to obey the police officer and treat him with respect I do believe your son will be fine , oh and dont break the law!

My son is one of the most respectful people i know and told me a story about a traffic stop that i didn't care for. And i will never tolerate it again from a cop, because i can afford a very good lawyer. The cop did a full search of my suv and didn't even put things back the way they were. I guess my nice cordial respectful son was driving while black. I would have had way more questions for this cop than my son did.

[six burg]

8 minutes ago, 77 said:

if you teach your son to obey the police officer and treat him with respect I do believe your son will be fine , oh and dont break the law!

And another thing a cop better treat me and my son with respect and follow the rules of being a cop and he won't have to appear in court.

[team first]

18 minutes ago, six burg said:

My son is one of the most respectful people i know and told me a story about a traffic stop that i didn't care for. And i will never tolerate it again from a cop, because i can afford a very good lawyer. The cop did a full search of my suv and didn't even put things back the way they were. I guess my nice cordial respectful son was driving while black. I would have had way more questions for this cop than my son did.

Cmon man that's what you are worried about, the cop checking your vehicle, and not placing things back. You sound miserable. 

[BS Wildcats]

1 hour ago, six burg said:

And another thing a cop better treat me and my son with respect and follow the rules of being a cop and he won't have to appear in court.

Sounds like you are just looking for an excuse to make a statement.  I guarantee if a black cop checked your son's vehicle, that would be the end of the story.

[stevenash]

2 hours ago, six burg said:

And another thing a cop better treat me and my son with respect and follow the rules of being a cop and he won't have to appear in court.

Then if it was handled improperly, why didn't you hire your lawyer and get it in court?  My guess is that there are points to this story that don't fit your narrative and they would definitely come up in court.   Mr. Obama dispatched a plethora of DOJ folks and lawyers to Ferguson to "get to the bottom of this".  The " bottom" was that hands up don't shoot was a total fabrication.  In spite of this WELL KNOWN/ESTABLISHED FACT, confirmed by the legal system that you say you will use, many still believe the hands up don't shoot accusation ONLY because they want to..

[Big girl]

10 hours ago, stevenash said:

I am going to post an incident from yesterday ( that, of course, you and Mr. Kaepernick will NOT be kneeling for or protesting).  Lets try keeping track of these incidents- I, and perhaps some others on this board, will post every incident like the one below and you and big girl and 2 wedge and other "associates"  can post each incident where an innocent unarmed black man was killed by police.  We will simply keep the tally going and find out how significant the numbers are and exactly where our social problems lie.  How does that sound to you?

 

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Let's also keep a tally of white people who shoot othets and a count of those who blow up things. Etc.Maybe, you will realize that white people can be animalistic like other races. You will also realize that you are not the superior race. There is not a race that is better than another

[stevenash]

THe point, Big Girl, which flew completely over your head ( like it does most of the time) is that, contrary to what you and the media would have everyone believe, there are not a large number of police officers out stalking and shooting unarmed innocent black men.

[BS Wildcats]

2 hours ago, Big girl said:

Let's also keep a tally of white people who shoot othets and a count of those who blow up things. Etc.Maybe, you will realize that white people can be animalistic like other races. You will also realize that you are not the superior race. There is not a race that is better than another

Can you find something here where anyone said anything about a superior race?  NO you can't!!

[Hagar]

15 hours ago, BS Wildcats said:

Can you find something here where anyone said anything about a superior race?  NO you can't!!

Sadly, it sounds like she has an inferiority complex.  She should seek out a mental health facility.  Perhaps they could help her overcome that.

[77]

On 10/13/2017 at 8:39 AM, six burg said:

My son is one of the most respectful people i know and told me a story about a traffic stop that i didn't care for. And i will never tolerate it again from a cop, because i can afford a very good lawyer. The cop did a full search of my suv and didn't even put things back the way they were. I guess my nice cordial respectful son was driving while black. I would have had way more questions for this cop than my son did.

I experienced the same thing when I was young. Did your son get arrested for anything , if not I would think he handled it very well!

[texanabroad]

I think that both sides of this argument have valid points and also faulty ones. One, I don't know what driving while black is like, so I have to try and understand your viewpoint. I would assume that sometimes there is some sort of double standard that takes place when you are black. I think that it would be foolish to assume otherwise. I think that the vast majority of officers aren't racist, but I do believe that sometimes, a black person will be treated differently than a white person. I feel like the conservatives on this board could gain a little respect from the other side if they would admit this. Two- the libs on this board need to ask why certain officers treat blacks differently? I don't necessarily believe it has anything to do with race at all most of the time. I believe that a lot of times, it is the neighborhood that they are working, or just the perception of the gang banger mentality. One has to admit that the gang banger mentality that is so pervasive in many minority communities puts a wall up between the police and the citizens. I also believe sometimes that they may profile the vehicle or the dress of the individual. Right or wrong, that is how i see it. I think that the libs on this board could gain a lot of respect from the right if they would admit that there may be other problems leading to this than just the easy fallback of racism. It may be racism sometime, but the vast majority of the time, it isn't. What I do believe that both sides can agree on is that any bad officers need to be gone. They are not above the law. If they abuse their power, they should be held to a higher standard and punished accordingly.  What both sides should also be able to agree upon is that most officers do an amazing job and deserve our utmost respect. Until both sides can admit this, there will be no progress on this front. 

[Englebert]

1 hour ago, texanabroad said:

I think that both sides of this argument have valid points and also faulty ones. One, I don't know what driving while black is like, so I have to try and understand your viewpoint. I would assume that sometimes there is some sort of double standard that takes place when you are black. I think that it would be foolish to assume otherwise. I think that the vast majority of officers aren't racist, but I do believe that sometimes, a black person will be treated differently than a white person. I feel like the conservatives on this board could gain a little respect from the other side if they would admit this. Two- the libs on this board need to ask why certain officers treat blacks differently? I don't necessarily believe it has anything to do with race at all most of the time. I believe that a lot of times, it is the neighborhood that they are working, or just the perception of the gang banger mentality. One has to admit that the gang banger mentality that is so pervasive in many minority communities puts a wall up between the police and the citizens. I also believe sometimes that they may profile the vehicle or the dress of the individual. Right or wrong, that is how i see it. I think that the libs on this board could gain a lot of respect from the right if they would admit that there may be other problems leading to this than just the easy fallback of racism. It may be racism sometime, but the vast majority of the time, it isn't. What I do believe that both sides can agree on is that any bad officers need to be gone. They are not above the law. If they abuse their power, they should be held to a higher standard and punished accordingly.  What both sides should also be able to agree upon is that most officers do an amazing job and deserve our utmost respect. Until both sides can admit this, there will be no progress on this front. 

Your asking both sides to admit what exactly? And why can't progress be made until both admit this unknown point you are trying to make?

Why do you feel a Black person will be treated differently than a White person? Studies have shown that the rate of tickets/traffic stops/arrests are basically no different between Black cops and White cops. So what exactly are your trying to say or point to that signifies that Blacks will be treated differently than Whites?

And what is this double standard that you allude to? I'm baffled by this statement. Are you saying that a Black person is more prone to harsher treatment than a White person when stopped by a cop? Does this apply when the officer is Black? If so, why? Do you feel that a Black cop will treat a Black person harsher than a White cop will treat a White person? Please explain, and please give supporting evidence.

And now let's talk about "driving while Black". Is this "theory" still applicable when the officer is Black? What do the stats say? Do Black people know what it is like to be "driving while White"? Does the officer's skin color make a difference? Does the tone/attitude of the person stopped play a factor? And does this tone/attitude play a factor in regards to the race of the officer? Is the culture of one race a factor? Is time of day a factor? Is the area stopped a factor, especially if the person stopped is of a different race than the race of the majority in the surrounding neighborhood? Is clothing a factor? Is sex a factor? Is age a factor (both of the officer and the person stopped)? 

My point is that we know nothing about why Blacks have a higher incarceration/ticketed/stopped rate than Whites. And to say that one side has to admit anything before we know the slightest causation is absolutely the wrong path...and potentially harmful to advancement on the subject. But I would love to hear some answers to the above questions.

And I'm not trying to bash you here. I was getting set to unleash these set of questions on 2wedge, but he chose to run. I probably inadvertently used the tone reserved for him.

[texanabroad]

@Englebert, this is exactly the reason that I left this board for so long. Everything has to be a confrontational. Why can't you admit that there are instances where black people get treated differently than white people by police? If you think it doesn't ever happen, you are naive. I don't believe it isn't as prevalent as some would make it out to be, but do believe that it occasionally happens. 

It doesn't matter that the studies have shown that there isn't a different rate between the races. I'm not debating that. I do believe that is probably correct. I am saying that I do believe that there are certain cases where you get a bad apple cop that is racist or poorly performs his job. I believe statistics would back me up that there is a certain percentage of people who are by nature, racist. That would also include police, both white and black.

If you read closely, you will see that the double standard that i am referring to is not race related, but related to appearances and where the officer is working. I would guess that an officer working in a crime ridden neighborhood would probably approach a traffic stop a bit different than he might in a relatively crime free area. I think that is just human nature. I also believe that if someone is perceived to be a "gang banger", he might handle that stop differently as well. 

I think I just answered your driving while black question, You do bring up some valid points and this is why I said that both sides need to be open to dialogue in order to gain respect from the other side. 

You keep talking about incarceration/ticketed/stopped rate. I think you are missing the mark. The statistics speak for themselves on that point. From what I have seen, there isn't the disparity that is argued by some. Our police do an overall fantastic job. My point has to do with the individual instances of injustice. If you are opposed to stopping those, then we can agree to disagree. 

[stevenash]

8 hours ago, texanabroad said:

@Englebert, this is exactly the reason that I left this board for so long. Everything has to be a confrontational. Why can't you admit that there are instances where black people get treated differently than white people by police? If you think it doesn't ever happen, you are naive. I don't believe it isn't as prevalent as some would make it out to be, but do believe that it occasionally happens. 

It doesn't matter that the studies have shown that there isn't a different rate between the races. I'm not debating that. I do believe that is probably correct. I am saying that I do believe that there are certain cases where you get a bad apple cop that is racist or poorly performs his job. I believe statistics would back me up that there is a certain percentage of people who are by nature, racist. That would also include police, both white and black.

If you read closely, you will see that the double standard that i am referring to is not race related, but related to appearances and where the officer is working. I would guess that an officer working in a crime ridden neighborhood would probably approach a traffic stop a bit different than he might in a relatively crime free area. I think that is just human nature. I also believe that if someone is perceived to be a "gang banger", he might handle that stop differently as well. 

I think I just answered your driving while black question, You do bring up some valid points and this is why I said that both sides need to be open to dialogue in order to gain respect from the other side. 

You keep talking about incarceration/ticketed/stopped rate. I think you are missing the mark. The statistics speak for themselves on that point. From what I have seen, there isn't the disparity that is argued by some. Our police do an overall fantastic job. My point has to do with the individual instances of injustice. If you are opposed to stopping those, then we can agree to disagree. 

Do you believe it is possible to eliminate all individual instances of injustice?  If so, please tell me  how we could have prevented the death of Kate Steinle.  I struggle frequently to understand why nobody seems to care about her death but will talk for hours about being treated poorly by a police officer.

[texanabroad]

No, I don’t believe you can eliminate all instances of injustice. Does that mean we shouldn’t try?

[Englebert]

9 hours ago, texanabroad said:

@Englebert, this is exactly the reason that I left this board for so long. Everything has to be a confrontational. Why can't you admit that there are instances where black people get treated differently than white people by police? If you think it doesn't ever happen, you are naive. I don't believe it isn't as prevalent as some would make it out to be, but do believe that it occasionally happens. 

It doesn't matter that the studies have shown that there isn't a different rate between the races. I'm not debating that. I do believe that is probably correct. I am saying that I do believe that there are certain cases where you get a bad apple cop that is racist or poorly performs his job. I believe statistics would back me up that there is a certain percentage of people who are by nature, racist. That would also include police, both white and black.

If you read closely, you will see that the double standard that i am referring to is not race related, but related to appearances and where the officer is working. I would guess that an officer working in a crime ridden neighborhood would probably approach a traffic stop a bit different than he might in a relatively crime free area. I think that is just human nature. I also believe that if someone is perceived to be a "gang banger", he might handle that stop differently as well. 

I think I just answered your driving while black question, You do bring up some valid points and this is why I said that both sides need to be open to dialogue in order to gain respect from the other side. 

You keep talking about incarceration/ticketed/stopped rate. I think you are missing the mark. The statistics speak for themselves on that point. From what I have seen, there isn't the disparity that is argued by some. Our police do an overall fantastic job. My point has to do with the individual instances of injustice. If you are opposed to stopping those, then we can agree to disagree. 

Like I said in my last sentence, my tone was not meant to be confrontational.

Secondly, and this is confrontational, where exactly in my post (or tone) did you imagine that I don't believe there are instances where Black people get treated differently than White people by police. In fact, I pretty much laid out a plethora of (but very few) factors that mitigate a stop. Why won't you admit that you don't know what factors are involved, and that skin color might be a major factor or it might be a very minor factor or not a factor at all. You want me to admit something I do not know to be true, and you want me to admit it because you think it is true. That is why I brought of the statistics of Black cops versus White cops. If skin color of the person is a major factor, you would think that White cops would stop/ticket/arrest Blacks at a higher rate if racism is the underlining issue. But Black cops stop/ticket/arrest Black people at the same rate as White cops. That flies in the face of "White cops stopping Black people just because they are Black" as being racially motivated.

Thirdly, in your third paragraph you chose to use a lecturing tone by telling me "if you read closely", then proceeded to describe basically the same thing I said. I'm curious as to why you prefaced that paragraph with "if you read closely" when I clearly outlined the same thing. Is that the confrontational tone you are using to chastise me and the rest of the board.

And fourthly, I'm just mesmerized and extremely perplexed that you would have to audacity to somehow pull out of thin air some foreign concept that I'm opposed to stopping acts of injustice. What is this notion rooted in?

And it sounds to me that you want everyone to admit that instances of injustice only apply to Black people? Why won't you admit that instances of injustice also happen to people of all colors? And why won't you admit that it is hard, if not impossible, to have a logical debate when you are being lectured to.

[texanabroad]

I have never denied injustices happen to all races. That was not my original point. It seems that the argument was being made that there were not any legitimate cases of injustices against blacks because the statistics don’t show any significant differences in tick ting and arrest rates.  I was making the point that to deny that there are cases of injustice against blacks is naive. I also believe that blacks who claim everything is racial against them is naive. My point is that there are two perspectives in this and unless both side is willing to accept that they have different perspectives, you will never come to a sensible solution.

You and others hear are debating with someone (me) who believes the same as you on this point on 99% of the issues. Find common ground, then see where the conversation leads.