Tobie, lets try an experiment

[baddog]

Then we should all be bellyaching in the streets screaming oppression. Why is it that only one group can protest this?

[stevenash]

39 minutes ago, texanabroad said:

No, I don’t believe you can eliminate all instances of injustice. Does that mean we shouldn’t try?

Yes we should try, but with equal concern for fat people, ugly people, etc.etc. etc.

[Englebert]

32 minutes ago, texanabroad said:

I have never denied injustices happen to all races. That was not my original point. It seems that the argument was being made that there were not any legitimate cases of injustices against blacks because the statistics don’t show any significant differences in tick ting and arrest rates.  I was making the point that to deny that there are cases of injustice against blacks is naive. I also believe that blacks who claim everything is racial against them is naive. My point is that there are two perspectives in this and unless both side is willing to accept that they have different perspectives, you will never come to a sensible solution.

You and others hear are debating with someone (me) who believes the same as you on this point on 99% of the issues. Find common ground, then see where the conversation leads. 

 

 

Who made the argument that there were no legitimate cases of injustices against Blacks? I must have missed that one.

And who made the claim that statistics don't show any significant differences in ticketing and arrest rates for Blacks. There is a huge difference between the races. The point I made was that if stops/tickets/arrests are motivated by racism, then the race of the cop should show significant differences. That is, if a White cop is racist, he would logically stop/ticket/arrest Blacks at a higher rate than a Black cop who is not racially motivated to stop/ticket/arrest Blacks. Let's see if I can give a clearer example. If a White cop has a total of 100 stops in a period, and of these stops 75 of them where to Blacks and 25 of them where to Whites, then a point can be raised that maybe the cop is using skin color as a factor to stop people. If you replace that White cop with a Black cop (all other factors being the same), and that Black cop stops 75 Black people and 25 White people, then evidence of racism no longer exists. And that's what statistics have shown, that Black cops stop Black people at the same rate that White cops stop Black people. So the idea that Black people are stopped at a higher rate than White people because of racism is not supported. But somehow you want me/us to admit that is really the case. Finding common ground is a totally different angle than telling someone to admit something.

[texanabroad]

I am now confused. I thought that I agreed with you that I don’t believe that there is any systemic racism taking place. I don’t think that I have argued to that. I did say that I believe there are bound to be cases where blacks may be treated differently. I also argued that I don’t believe many of those are due to race, rather more likely due to environmental factors. If I am not mistaken, you made he same argument. The rub seems to be that I believe that there are occasionally instances where a police officer abuses his authority and sometimes this happens to a minority(which you apparently agree with). I guess the controversy arises from the fact that I say both sides should try and understand the others perspective. Forgive me, but I don’t think there is anything wrong with trying to understand why someone feels the way they do. They may be right and they may be wrong, but at least you know why they feel the way they do. 

[stevenash]

On ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 8:39 AM, six burg said:

My son is one of the most respectful people i know and told me a story about a traffic stop that i didn't care for. And i will never tolerate it again from a cop, because i can afford a very good lawyer. The cop did a full search of my suv and didn't even put things back the way they were. I guess my nice cordial respectful son was driving while black. I would have had way more questions for this cop than my son did.

  In many cases, the upbringing many of these kids experience is one where they are indoctrinated that police are bad and are out to get them.  When that value/thought is fixed in their mind, they behave differently when confronted by "the enemy"(advance perception) vs other social situations.

[Englebert]

26 minutes ago, texanabroad said:

I am now confused. I thought that I agreed with you that I don’t believe that there is any systemic racism taking place. I don’t think that I have argued to that. I did say that I believe there are bound to be cases where blacks may be treated differently. I also argued that I don’t believe many of those are due to race, rather more likely due to environmental factors. If I am not mistaken, you made he same argument. The rub seems to be that I believe that there are occasionally instances where a police officer abuses his authority and sometimes this happens to a minority(which you apparently agree with). I guess the controversy arises from the fact that I say both sides should try and understand the others perspective. Forgive me, but I don’t think there is anything wrong with trying to understand why someone feels the way they do. They may be right and they may be wrong, but at least you know why they feel the way they do. 

I interpreted your remarks as that I should admit that Blacks have different experiences when dealing with cops, and these differences are stemmed from racism. If that assumption is wrong, please explain what you want me to admit to.

[texanabroad]

I would like you to admit that historically, the black experience in America is different than the white experience. Whites weren’t enslaved or impacted by Jim Crow. These experiences of the past have left them with a different viewpoint on today’s events. I’m not saying that their view is wrong or right, I’m just saying that it is different. My original point was that minorities need to acknowledge that race isn’t always THE factor and whites need to acknowledge that their have been instances that have led minorities to feel the way they do. A little understanding by both sides can go a long way.  It’s not a I gotcha or right or wrong thing, it’s a make a better world thing. 

[stevenash]

10 minutes ago, texanabroad said:

I would like you to admit that historically, the black experience in America is different than the white experience. Whites weren’t enslaved or impacted by Jim Crow. These experiences of the past have left them with a different viewpoint on today’s events. I’m not saying that their view is wrong or right, I’m just saying that it is different. My original point was that minorities need to acknowledge that race isn’t always THE factor and whites need to acknowledge that their have been instances that have led minorities to feel the way they do. A little understanding by both sides can go a long way.  It’s not a I gotcha or right or wrong thing, it’s a make a better world thing. 

Based upon your comments, how do you think the original "experiment" that I solicited in the very first post of this thread would turn out? 

[Englebert]

19 minutes ago, texanabroad said:

I would like you to admit that historically, the black experience in America is different than the white experience. Whites weren’t enslaved or impacted by Jim Crow. These experiences of the past have left them with a different viewpoint on today’s events. I’m not saying that their view is wrong or right, I’m just saying that it is different. My original point was that minorities need to acknowledge that race isn’t always THE factor and whites need to acknowledge that their have been instances that have led minorities to feel the way they do. A little understanding by both sides can go a long way.  It’s not a I gotcha or right or wrong thing, it’s a make a better world thing. 

I don't think anyone is denying or needs to admit that everybody has different experiences. That's almost like soliciting an admittance that 1+1=2.

I can admit that I have personally been negatively impacted by Affirmative Action. Do you think that I need an affirmation from all minorities in order to discuss the topic with an open mind? Does my experiences give credence to any unrealistic or false narratives or different viewpoints I might harbor? Does my experiences excuse any unfounded hypothesis I might argue? And if you say yes to any of these things, are you not setting a lower standard for me than for everyone else?

[texanabroad]

I doubt affirmative action got anyone in your family lynched. Affirmative action didn’t affect you and your ancestors for 200 years. Perception is reality and in the black community, there is a large number that see the police as oppressive. Why is that and how can we change that perception? You don’t seem to want to understand each other anymore than someone shouting grabum every time someone says something they don’t agree with. 

[Englebert]

6 minutes ago, texanabroad said:

I doubt affirmative action got anyone in your family lynched. Affirmative action didn’t affect you and your ancestors for 200 years. Perception is reality and in the black community, there is a large number that see the police as oppressive. Why is that and how can we change that perception? You don’t seem to want to understand each other anymore than someone shouting grabum every time someone says something they don’t agree with. 

So you feel that something that happened in the past can be used as an excuse to inject emotionality into a topic of discussion. Do you really think answers to problems can be discussed rationally and solutions found when you continue to push the division angle? It is painfully clear who is advocating for division.

Do you really think a large number of people in the Black community look at Black cops as oppressive due to slavery?

[stevenash]

2 hours ago, texanabroad said:

I doubt affirmative action got anyone in your family lynched. Affirmative action didn’t affect you and your ancestors for 200 years. Perception is reality and in the black community, there is a large number that see the police as oppressive. Why is that and how can we change that perception? You don’t seem to want to understand each other anymore than someone shouting grabum every time someone says something they don’t agree with. 

Are you saying that the lynchings of many years ago are justification for promoting ( yes  unequivocally promoting) the thought that there are many many police out stalking black people seeking the opportunity to shoot and kill them?

[texanabroad]

I am saying that seeds of distrust began years ago in the black community because of their experience in this country. Nothing more, nothing less. When a kid grows up listening to grandpa tell stories about what happened to him as a kid and that same person listens to the news regarding a black killed in an incident with a cop, they might draw a different conclusion as to the cause than I might. As I’ve said multiple times, their conclusion may be right, it may be wrong. The point being that something has driven them to a different conclusion than me.

If you want to continue the debate, go ahead and debate with yourself. I am tired of this round and round. I am moving on. I have made a very reasonable argument that we should try and understand why people believe the way they do and you obviously disagree with that.  Let’s see if your “you are wrong and I am right” attitude will forward the conversation any further with minorities regarding perceived injustices. 

[stevenash]

Then your contention is that we do not understand why people believe the way we do?  Let's assume you are absolutely 100% correct.  Lets further agree that we are going to make a more concerted effort to understand where others are "coming from".  How are we to demonstrate that new approach?  I am thinking that the first time a minority is killed by a  police officer( whether justified or not) it will be promoted as a cop looking for a reason to shoot/kill a black person.  Am I wrong in thinking/believing that?

[texanabroad]

Then your contention is that we do not understand why people believe the way we do?    I don't think it is that we don't understand, we don't recognize. Not as a fault, but as human nature.

Let's assume you are absolutely 100% correct.  Lets further agree that we are going to make a more concerted effort to understand where others are "coming from".  How are we to demonstrate that new approach?   At the current state of this board, you can't do it here. Everyone is dug in like we are in the trenches of WWI. This thread is a great example. How many black posters on this board have stepped up to defend what I am saying, zero. This was their perfect opportunity. I believe that is because they don't like the fact that I stated that they need to acknowledge that race isn't always the factor. That removes their easy out, therefore, crickets.

I am thinking that the first time a minority is killed by a  police officer( whether justified or not) it will be promoted as a cop looking for a reason to shoot/kill a black person.  Am I wrong in thinking/believing that? Agreed 100%. This is one of the reasons why I am so heartbroken at the state of our country. The media and sleazy politicians have created this and I am scared there is no turning back.

[Englebert]

5 hours ago, texanabroad said:

I am saying that seeds of distrust began years ago in the black community because of their experience in this country. Nothing more, nothing less. When a kid grows up listening to grandpa tell stories about what happened to him as a kid and that same person listens to the news regarding a black killed in an incident with a cop, they might draw a different conclusion as to the cause than I might. As I’ve said multiple times, their conclusion may be right, it may be wrong. The point being that something has driven them to a different conclusion than me.

If you want to continue the debate, go ahead and debate with yourself. I am tired of this round and round. I am moving on. I have made a very reasonable argument that we should try and understand why people believe the way they do and you obviously disagree with that.  Let’s see if your “you are wrong and I am right” attitude will forward the conversation any further with minorities regarding perceived injustices. 

What you are saying is something that Captain Obvious would respond to with "Well Duh!" I don't like speaking for the rest of the board, but I'm fairly highly confident that not one single board member thinks that anothers life experiences are somehow the same as theirs. Not one single person would say all races are treated the same, and not one single person would say that people within a race are treated the same. For you to somehow put yourself on a pedestal and decree that it is so is a little obnoxious, and frankly insulting. Then to top it off, you make an emphatic statement that each should admit the obvious, which can only serve to divide.

And you are sounding more and more like a typical racist that thinks Black people are incapable of achieving the moral and intellectual level of a White person. Are you seriously stating that a Black man is incapable of distinguishing between the attitude of Whites 50+ years ago and the attitude of Whites today? Do you feel that White kids today have a moral responsibility of shunning the beliefs of their (great) grandpas, but find no fault with (and even condone) Black youths harboring and emulating beliefs of their (great) grandpas? That sounds highly condescending and insulting to Blacks...strike that...everyone.

And one more thing, you have not made a "very reasonable argument" on any level. You basically said that Whites don't understand Blacks and Whites should admit that. That is nowhere near a reasonable argument in any sense of the word. If you did make a reasonable argument, please restate it because I definitely missed it. And I'm still waiting for you to answer the question as to why Blacks feel a distrust towards Black cops. I'm pretty sure I know the reason you avoided answering that question, but am still anxious to hear your wording.

[Hagar]

Just a couple of comments here.  Since blacks commit a significantly higher number of crimes, wouldn't that affect the rate of them being pulled over, and increase the tension of any police person, regardless of his or hers race?  Unfortunately, that affects a lot of law abiding blacks, but in the current atmosphere, I see no solution.  The police are sensible for being on high alert, and the law biding black has a right to be agitated.

One more quick point, blacks are still all up in arms over slavery and atrocities done to blacks many years ago by whites.  Japan and Germany committed millions of atrocities and killed many more white Americans than the number of blacks killed in America by whites.  The white Americans have forgiven the Japanese and Germans and moved on.  When will blacks forgive whites and move on?  This is a particular interesting question to me.  As I see it now, in 2117, blacks will still be blaming whites.  Is there an end to it?  And before someone replies, remember, the vast majority of whites never owned slaves, and never physically abused any blacks.