I can admit I was wrong

[CardinalBacker]

In 2015 when the question was asked, “can WOS return to the state championship game,” I said no. 

Before this season started I again answered the same question with “no,” based on the number of talented kids that were lost to graduation. 

Once more I have underestimated the Mustangs, and I stand corrected.

 

[Reagan]

13 minutes ago, CardinalBacker said:

In 2015 when the question was asked, “can WOS return to the state championship game,” I said no. 

Before this season started I again answered the same question with “no,” based on the number of talented kids that were lost to graduation. 

Once more I have underestimated the Mustangs, and I stand corrected.

 

This brings me back, again, to ask the question:  Does WOS always have the athletes year in and year out?  Or -- are the athletes made through coaching?

[Tigers2010]

13 minutes ago, Reagan said:

This brings me back, again, to ask the question:  Does WOS always have the athletes year in and year out?  Or -- are the athletes made through coaching?

Gotta have both to get to/win State. WOS always have good athletes, and Thompson has proven to be a great coach and run a good program.

Former Allen coach with multiple 6A titles missed the playoffs with Barbers Hill, even if they made it, didn't have the athletes to make a run a 5A State.

Thompson could move over to Nederland, and wouldn't be in the running for a State Championship. 

This question gets beat to death. You are not winning a State Title without at least a very good coach. You are also not winning State, without very good talent. The chicken and the egg have to come at the same time.

[CardinalBacker]

43 minutes ago, Tigers2010 said:

Gotta have both to get to/win State. WOS always have good athletes, and Thompson has proven to be a great coach and run a good program.

Former Allen coach with multiple 6A titles missed the playoffs with Barbers Hill, even if they made it, didn't have the athletes to make a run a 5A State.

Thompson could move over to Nederland, and wouldn't be in the running for a State Championship. 

This question gets beat to death. You are not winning a State Title without at least a very good coach. You are also not winning State, without very good talent. The chicken and the egg have to come at the same time.

I agree with a lot of this, but not all. WOS doesn’t just “have” athletes. They are molded and trained through years of participating in fantastic offseason programs and good coaching. Having parents that don’t sue the coaches for making Junior do bear crawls is a bonus, too. 

I firmly believe that when you lose the years between a good pee wee program and a solid varsity high school program, you can’t get them back. 

[oldschool2]

47 minutes ago, Tigers2010 said:

Gotta have both to get to/win State. WOS always have good athletes, and Thompson has proven to be a great coach and run a good program.

Former Allen coach with multiple 6A titles missed the playoffs with Barbers Hill, even if they made it, didn't have the athletes to make a run a 5A State.

Thompson could move over to Nederland, and wouldn't be in the running for a State Championship. 

This question gets beat to death. You are not winning a State Title without at least a very good coach. You are also not winning State, without very good talent. The chicken and the egg have to come at the same time.

 

Pretty good analogy. 

 

[oldschool2]

8 minutes ago, CardinalBacker said:

I agree with a lot of this, but not all. WOS doesn’t just “have” athletes. They are molded and trained through years of participating in fantastic offseason programs and good coaching. Having parents that don’t sue the coaches for making Junior do bear crawls is a bonus, too. 

I firmly believe that when you lose the years between a good pee wee program and a solid varsity high school program, you can’t get them back. 

Could Coach Thompson go to High Island with his entire staff for 5 years and turn one of their 7th graders into an Alabama signee? 

[Tigers2010]

8 minutes ago, CardinalBacker said:

I agree with a lot of this, but not all. WOS doesn’t just “have” athletes. They are molded and trained through years of participating in fantastic offseason programs and good coaching. Having parents that don’t sue the coaches for making Junior do bear crawls is a bonus, too. 

I firmly believe that when you lose the years between a good pee wee program and a solid varsity high school program, you can’t get them back. 

Agree.

[bronco pride]

How many FBS kids are on WOS this year? They are very small with no depth but Thompson has those kids were they are supposed to be every play. They are excellent tacklers which is a taught skill and they block great which is also another taught skill. When I watched WOS Friday it amazed me how good they are with what I consider mostly just real good high school athletes.

[oldage football]

fundamentals are taught dailey at WOS -- the only time I have ever seen Wos come out of the dressing room without pads on is picture day -- as soon as the pics are done  they go back inside and put their pads on for practice -- they are full pads on Thursdays - when most people do walk thrus -- They come out on Friday nite in full pads for warm-up - its the little things like that T has installed in them that matters - if you take care of the little things -- BIG things happen

[Reagan]

1 hour ago, Tigers2010 said:

Gotta have both to get to/win State. WOS always have good athletes, and Thompson has proven to be a great coach and run a good program.

Former Allen coach with multiple 6A titles missed the playoffs with Barbers Hill, even if they made it, didn't have the athletes to make a run a 5A State.

Thompson could move over to Nederland, and wouldn't be in the running for a State Championship. 

This question gets beat to death. You are not winning a State Title without at least a very good coach. You are also not winning State, without very good talent. The chicken and the egg have to come at the same time.

Not sure I would agree with this.  But, it's mere speculation on both our parts.  Let's take Aledo, they are playing in the second straight Sate Championship.  Do you think they have better athletes than Nederland or Port Neches?  Or is it coaching?  Back went Art Briles was at Stephenville, he won, what, 4 State titles?!  They've been decent since but not what Briles achieved.   Briles goes to Baylor and has a massive turn-a-round.  He leaves and they got to S**t!  Think back to the Gordon Woods at Brownwood (6 Titles) and G.A. Moore at Celina (5 Titles), you think these people always had the talent?  Or was the athlete coached to get them were they needed to be?  A lot of times coaches will use the "we don't have the talent" excuse to cover for their failings.  By the way, in the 70's, you think PN-G had the overall talent to win as much as they did?  Or was it Doug Ethridge, the coach?

[Tigers2010]

4 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Not sure I would agree with this.  But, it's mere speculation on both our parts.  Let's take Aledo, they are playing in the second straight Sate Championship.  Do you think they have better athletes than Nederland or Port Neches?  Or is it coaching?  Back went Art Briles was at Stephenville, he won, what, 4 State titles?!  They've been decent since but not what Briles achieved.   Briles goes to Baylor and has a massive turn-a-round.  He leaves and they got to S**t!  Think back to the Gordon Woods at Brownwood (6 Titles) and G.A. Moore at Celina (5 Titles), you think these people always had the talent?  Or was the athlete coached to get them were they needed to be?  A lot of times coaches will use the "we don't have the talent" excuse to cover for their failings.  By the way, in the 70's, you think PN-G had the overall talent to win as much as they did?  Or was it Doug Ethridge, the coach?

The college example is a little misleading, recruits fell off the wagon for Baylor with the whole raping women thing got Briles fired. Not being able to bring in top recruits means you have less talent, which would explain their fall.

Yes, I think Aledo has better players than PNG and Nederland.

Like I have said, to win the Title, you have to have very good players, as well as very good coaching. Coaches can make good players very good. Belichek isn't taking over Ozen or Lee and winning a title with the talent they currently have. I believe it takes both. Take Brady from Bill, do you honestly think they win those 5 titles? Why do the Texans suck with Savage, but average 21 points more a game with Watson? Does Bill O'Brien coach better when Watson is on the field or is it because he has a better QB with Watson on the field? Alabama wins titles because they have arguably the best coach in the country AS WELL AS, several 5 start recruits and 20 NFL draft picks on the team. 

[Tigers2010]

i'm not devaluing a coach by no mean. You have to have an elite coach to win it all. But, I am not about to say that an elite coach can take a bunch of scrubs and get to state by pumping them up and teaching the proper tackling technique. You have to have both. Period. 

[bronco pride]

6 minutes ago, Tigers2010 said:

i'm not devaluing a coach by no mean. You have to have an elite coach to win it all. But, I am not about to say that an elite coach can take a bunch of scrubs and get to state by pumping them up and teaching the proper tackling technique. You have to have both. Period. 

Let's use WOS. Coach T quote was these kids are a bunch of over achievers. They don't have the talent they have had in the past and I think they are allowed to over achieve because of who they have coaching. This makes 4 straight title games on a program that suites up about 25 kids. 

[Uncle Pig]

Coach Thompson needs a salary comparable to that of Scott Surratt's. The Carthage coach makes roughly 125K a year. IMO, there's no reason Coach Thompson shouldn't make something comparable.

[CH96]

1 hour ago, CardinalBacker said:

I agree with a lot of this, but not all. WOS doesn’t just “have” athletes. They are molded and trained through years of participating in fantastic offseason programs and good coaching. Having parents that don’t sue the coaches for making Junior do bear crawls is a bonus, too. 

I firmly believe that when you lose the years between a good pee wee program and a solid varsity high school program, you can’t get them back. 

prime example is Lumberton.  

[CardinalBacker]

47 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

Could Coach Thompson go to High Island with his entire staff for 5 years and turn one of their 7th graders into an Alabama signee? 

I thought that kid transferred in....

On the other hand, a fellow Alabama signee from Beaumont didn't collect any state football championships (or even make the playoffs), so I guess you'd have to say that it takes more than athletes to get to Jerryworld.

But I do believe that Coach Thompson could take his entire staff to High Island and win big after 5-6 years, IF the parents and kids would allow him to do his thing.  

I'll be a jerk here just because... Coach Thompson would fail miserably at BC.  You can say it's a lack of "athletes" but that's not entirely true.  We have our share of speed and size, maybe not at consistently as WOS, but so much of WOS's size isn't just occurring.  It's an off-season program that builds bigger, stronger athletes.  The problem is that parents and kids here in BC (and in a lot of other mediocre programs) aren't willing to do the work it takes to win consistently.  I've heard stories from WOS athletes who were like "What?  That's it?" after their first conditioning workouts in college.  I don't doubt it.  My guess is that IF either of those Alabama signees had gone to BC, they'd be about finished with their undergrad studies after an uneventful high school career and no scholarship offers.  That, my friends, has nothing to do with the fast-twitch or slow-twitch fibers of those particular athletes.  

If all it took was a good group of athletes, I think Silsbee would have a collection of championship trophies by now, no offense.  

It's both... you've got to have a decent group of athletes, cultivate them with great coaching and offseason programs (through all levels), and an elite coaching staff.  

 

[kicker 2.0]

18 minutes ago, bronco pride said:

Let's use WOS. Coach T quote was these kids are a bunch of over achievers. They don't have the talent they have had in the past and I think they are allowed to over achieve because of who they have coaching. This makes 4 straight title games on a program that suites up about 25 kids. 

I believe it’s in the mid 30’s on players. But here is the kicker, we only had the same amount when I played and teams even before me and we were 2.5 times the size school they are now. WOS always carries a small roster on varsity for 2 reasons. 1. Only the best get to wear the Silver helmet unless you are a Senior(no little johnnie syndrome at WOS, parents stay out of it) 2. Many, and I mean Many players can’t take the grueling practices and off season and quit or transfer. WOS demands mental toughness just as much or more than physical toughness. Going back to #1....we were all groomed from when we were even 4 or 5 years old of what it would take to wear the flying WOS on our helmets. It was accepted by the parents and also the kids that understood the fraternity of being a Mustang football player.A.K.A., you knew what to expect 10 years before you even showed up in the stands for that first two a day practice as a Freshman. There is a sign in the fieldhouse that is there for a reason and the EXACT example of this....”Those who remain, will be champions” not just on the field, but in life also......From my personal experience, how many high schools make kickers actually practice with the defense and are thought the same way as a linebacker or DB? I only was able to practice my craft during the offensive period. That is why I had no issues tackling and loved to lay people out when I had the chance, and I did it multiple times in my 4 years there. I wore #18 because I was also a strong safety(even though I didn’t play that position, but could if needed) we were all coached the same no matter our “regular” position. WOS football is a mind set, a way of life, not just a slogan.....

[Clueless]

I think the majority of 6a schools success is through pure numbers. Allen has like 6k students, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to get talent out of that many kids. The lower level Carthage, WOS, etc. I think benefit from the majority of families staying around the area and not moving away. Therefor you have families of athletes that continue to produce more athlete's. You put a good coach in there and now you have the recipe for success. The middle of the road schools which is mostly 5a in our area have some success, but not rings due to some above average HS players, good coaches, and a lot of average to below average players. With all of that said, the golden triangle stays stagnant on population some downward spiral as far as population and the metro area's along with the suburbs are growing like wildfire. More money, better facilities, schools, salaries, you name it. My .02

[DLivingston]

I can't agree more with the comments about the parents involvement. I remember back in the beginning of the season it was pouring down raining and one of the news outlets on Facebook had a pic of the WOS players running stands. There were so many comments about how the coaches were stupid and and endangering the kids.I bet not one of those comments were from a parent of the Mustang players... I've witnessed first hand coaching little league football. Watching a game before ours at Wos, parents were angry at their own kids for not doing what was expected and they are held accountable for it. It is the polar opposite in BC, in my experience. Coaches are idiots, run the boys too much, don't have little johnny in the right position etc etc.  That also trickles down to kids. You would be amazed to hear 11, and 12 year olds talk about how coaches are stupid and don't know what they are doing. Now where do they hear that from?

[oldage football]

I know this day and age what i'm about to say may not be popular - BUT - I just dont feel it's the salaries or the facilities - Now dont get me wrong i coached for over 40 yrs -- and would not begrudge any coach getting a big payday. But more credit needs to be given to the communities and the parents -- Newton has little - Wos has little - but everything is functional -- its the community that supports the kids and the coaches- they believe in the programs and stand behind the people running the programs. both these programs have long teeth like Cuero -- they have been competitive for decades. You throw big salaries out there you get people coming in that dont understand the culture of these places- take their money and have a little success and haul their a--- out of there. People like T and WT just want fair pay for a days work. and for you to be proud of their efforts - not everyone has to agree with every decision but dont try to drag the program down when you dont agree. The majority of the people in these types of communities are just that they lived thru these programs and have an abundance of pride in them

[oldschool2]

A poor-decent coach can win with superior talent.  A great coach can NOT win with zero talent.  I don't care what anyone says.  The reason that the same coaches don't have the same results on a yearly basis is that the players change.  On their team and the teams they play. 

I've always said that some coaches are better than others..and some coaches can do more with players than other coaches can.  But EVERY single coach will only be as good as his/her team allows them to be.

Back to an earlier point.. Coach T would not have any state championship rings if he were at another school other than WOS.  Ask Barbers Hill if it's strictly coaching that wins games. 

[bronco pride]

8 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

A poor-decent coach can win with superior talent.  A great coach can NOT win with zero talent.  I don't care what anyone says.  The reason that the same coaches don't have the same results on a yearly basis is that the players change.  On their team and the teams they play. 

I've always said that some coaches are better than others..and some coaches can do more with players than other coaches can.  But EVERY single coach will only be as good as his/her team allows them to be.

Back to an earlier point.. Coach T would not have any state championship rings if he were at another school other than WOS.  Ask Barbers Hill if it's strictly coaching that wins games. 

Guess all the talent left Cold Spring with Barbay. 

[oldage football]

getting a program started doesn't come overnite give the guy at BH time to get the people to buy into his program - you might see a state title

[CardinalBacker]

15 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

A poor-decent coach can win with superior talent.  A great coach can NOT win with zero talent.  I don't care what anyone says.  The reason that the same coaches don't have the same results on a yearly basis is that the players change.  On their team and the teams they play. 

I've always said that some coaches are better than others..and some coaches can do more with players than other coaches can.  But EVERY single coach will only be as good as his/her team allows them to be.

Back to an earlier point.. Coach T would not have any state championship rings if he were at another school other than WOS.  Ask Barbers Hill if it's strictly coaching that wins games. 

I'll bet that once the new Coach at Barbers Hill is fielding a varsity team made up of kids that have been in his program since junior high, we'll all be singing a different tune.  Kids who have never hit the weight room can't make up for 4-6 years of missed gains in a single off-season.  Same goes for trying to pick up fundamentals after years of neglectful coaching. 

I don't buy the whole "athletes sticking around" because there are too many schools that seem to draw from the same talent pools but get wildly different results.  Kountze has done well in b-ball, just like Silsbee, but do we really want to compare football successes?  Who wants to compare schools like Kirbyville and Newton?  Livingston and Corrigan-Camden? WOS has managed to succeed despite numerous transfers out of the district... even as much as losing multiple starting qbs in 2014. Are you trying to say that WOS had 4 state champion caliber qbs on the roster that fall?  Or is the system the reason for the team's success? 

Coach T could do as well at some other districts, but only after time, and only if the parents and the kids were willing to accept the work that's required.

  It's also fair to point out that some classifications seem to fit better than others.  4A D1 is a totally different animal than 4A D2.  The Stangs would still be VERY successful, but I don't think they'd be making their 4th trip to the SC facing teams like Carthage.... Hypothetically, of course.  

[Bobkat]

Say Coach T retires this year or within the next 3-5 years, is there anyone on the current staff that can keep the Stangs tradition of winning alive? Cause if they were to go outside the program for a coach, how long would it take for the program to become just normal, or does that mindset of what it takes to be a Stang just carry over regardless of who's calling the shots. I personally believe an outsider regardless of his pedigree would have a hard time keeping the Stangs on an Elite level. They're going to want to do their own thing, and run their program the way they see fit. I just think WOS would have a big drop off, don't get me wrong they would still field some great teams, but state championship teams I just don't know.