The coach debate

[oldschool2]

It has been argued by me that players have more to do with winning/losing than coaching.  I could give countless examples that prove this but I’ll just stick to very recent.

Mart won a state title this year.  Again...but with a different head coach.  Same exact thing with Newton.  And Allen... Very recently Lake Travis won 5 consecutive titles.  With...3 different head coaches...umm??  Andy Evans was at EC for over a decade and never got past round 3...then goes to Tatum and wins 2 state championships.  Nobody finds that odd?

Now I’m not saying a good coach won’t make a difference.  But if it was all about coaching then why are the same schools successful regardless of who coaches them?  And on that same note why have previously successful coaches not successful every year?  Well..I hate to break it to you but it’s because the rosters change every year.  Some years you have good players.  Some years you don’t.  And sometimes you don’t have good players but everyone else sucks just a little bit more.

If you don’t believe that then you probably think Cornell Thompson could win a title at Tarkington (1 of several examples).  Which is a joke.  You probably also think Westerberg will win a title at BH.  No offense...but that’s not happening either.

[no-look]

More about the Jimmys and Joes than the x’s and 0’s. In most cases. 

[SETXanalyst]

1 hour ago, oldschool2 said:

It has been argued by me that players have more to do with winning/losing than coaching.  I could give countless examples that prove this but I’ll just stick to very recent.

Mart won a state title this year.  Again...but with a different head coach.  Same exact thing with Newton.  And Allen... Very recently Lake Travis won 5 consecutive titles.  With...3 different head coaches...umm??  Andy Evans was at EC for over a decade and never got past round 3...then goes to Tatum and wins 2 state championships.  Nobody finds that odd?

Now I’m not saying a good coach won’t make a difference.  But if it was all about coaching then why are the same schools successful regardless of who coaches them?  And on that same note why have previously successful coaches not successful every year?  Well..I hate to break it to you but it’s because the rosters change every year.  Some years you have good players.  Some years you don’t.  And sometimes you don’t have good players but everyone else sucks just a little bit more.

If you don’t believe that then you probably think Cornell Thompson could win a title at Tarkington (1 of several examples).  Which is a joke.  You probably also think Westerberg will win a title at BH.  No offense...but that’s not happening either.

I believe that Cornell and W.T. could win at any school they desire. Newtons HC had been with them since the early 90s. Both of those coaches take average kids and make them into athletes. Alot of teams in this area are unsuccessful because they don't have an offseason like Newton and WOS. A prime example of this is the team newton played, Gunter. They are a product of smart coaching are able to utilize their players to be successful. Also another factor is how involved the community is. And to answer your question about the EC coach going to Tatum and winning, well at the time everything about Tatum lined up, the entire coaching staff plus a community that didn't witness a losing game very often. Another thing is that within bigger schools in our region there are alot of politics about whose kids get to play, and what my kid can do in the offseason. I know that in Newton that once you are in the program there is no room telling the coach who should play or what they should be doing. Now there are rare cases where a player makes the world of difference, for example this year would be Boling. They had an Alabama commit who was 6'4" 240 and could run with the track team that played both ways. Now Boling was pretty irrelevant before his presence but it is up to the coaches to utilize him to the best of his ability.

[Dawgs12345]

Carthage hadn't won a championship ever. Had only played in 1 in the history of the program. In the 7 years prior to Surratt arriving in 2007, Carthage had 2 1-9 seasons. Had not been out of the 2nd round of the playoffs in that decade. Surratt comes to town and 11 years later he has more championships than playoff losses. The jimmies and joes did not change. Coaching matters.

[EAGLEFOREVER]

It takes three things to win a state championship, players, good coaches allowed to do their job and parents who do not interfere with the coaches. Winning begets participation. I have been to games where I saw students sitting in the stands who looked liked they might be pretty good athletes. Why in the stands and not participating, who wants to put all that time practicing expending blood, sweat and tears into losing. I have seen teams with athletes and the coaches not know what to the with them. I have seen coaches favor athletes ( don’t work rest of the players recents it), let outside interest influence who plays and where ( don’t work, need your best players in the position that benefits the team the most). It takes a great coach to inspire the kids and rule ( my way or the highway) and avoid the outside influences ( look back on 2014 Newton 1-3 going into playing WOS. Coach Johnson speaking to a reporter said if the players would listen to him and the parents would stay out of it and let him do his job everything would be okay. The rest is history, went on and defeated WOS and played for a state championship) What made the difference, same roster no new players. Coaching made the difference. I fully believe every school has athletes getting them to participate is another chore, but  a winning tradition breeds participation.

[bronco pride]

1 hour ago, Dawgs12345 said:

Carthage hadn't won a championship ever. Had only played in 1 in the history of the program. In the 7 years prior to Surratt arriving in 2007, Carthage had 2 1-9 seasons. Had not been out of the 2nd round of the playoffs in that decade. Surratt comes to town and 11 years later he has more championships than playoff losses. The jimmies and joes did not change. Coaching matters.

Agree completely. Just look what's happened to Dayton when Stewart left. Stewart won district I believe 10 times. He also had a ton of playoff wins. Since he stepped down from head coach no district titles. Heck we can't even make the playoffs anymore and up until he completely left the program Dayton had one of the longest playoff streaks in the state. Give me a great coach and he will find Jimmy and Joes. 

[EnjoyLife]

Define "winning". Are we talking about going 10-3 or are we talking about going 16-0? An average coach with great talent and a great coach with average talent can go 10-3. Too win multiple titles takes a little of both. Surratt at Carthage has 6 championships in 10 seasons...but after winning the 2013 sc they went 6-6. Did he become an average coach for that one year? Of course not. By the same token I do not believe that 2016 Carthage was the most talented team in the state (heck, I do not think they were even the most talented team in the district) and they coulda/shoulda lost in round 1 (Silsbee), round 3 (Henderson), round 4 (Stafford) and round 5 (China Spring) but when it was all said and done they were hoisting the trophy. I give most of the credit for that run to Surratt. I dont think there is a right answer to the X's and O's vs Jmmys an Joes question.

[no-look]

A really good coach can make an average talented team better but if he has some stud athletes he looks a lot better. Lol

[texbuzz]

Very few things in this world are either/or.  Usually its a mixture or these things fall on a spectrum.  But it does seem great coaches uncover great athletes.  There are athletes everywhere.

• Are they motivated?
• Do they have the right mindset? 
• Are the coaches putting kids in places that work the best?
• Do the coaches gameplan effectively?  (way underrated)

There is so much going on behind closed doors and at practices that we will never see that I find it hard to pin down this question.

My answer would be "It's the coach, and a huge part of a good coach is finding and motivating talented athletes."

On the pro level, who saw what Case Keenum has been able to do this year?  (cue the rabid UH fan) 

[BS Wildcats]

3 hours ago, texbuzz said:

Very few things in this world are either/or.  Usually its a mixture or these things fall on a spectrum.  But it does seem great coaches uncover great athletes.  There are athletes everywhere.

• Are they motivated?
• Do they have the right mindset? 
• Are the coaches putting kids in places that work the best?
• Do the coaches gameplan effectively?  (way underrated)

There is so much going on behind closed doors and at practices that we will never see that I find it hard to pin down this question.

My answer would be "It's the coach, and a huge part of a good coach is finding and motivating talented athletes."

On the pro level, who saw what Case Keenum has been able to do this year?  (cue the rabid UH fan) 

Not the so-called QB guru coaching the Texans for sure.

[Uncle Pig]

41 minutes ago, BS Wildcats said:

Not the so-called QB guru coaching the Texans for sure.

That right there is funny; I do like O'Brien, but I couldn't agree with you more.

[Reagan]

11 hours ago, oldschool2 said:

It has been argued by me that players have more to do with winning/losing than coaching.  I could give countless examples that prove this but I’ll just stick to very recent.

Mart won a state title this year.  Again...but with a different head coach.  Same exact thing with Newton.  And Allen... Very recently Lake Travis won 5 consecutive titles.  With...3 different head coaches...umm??  Andy Evans was at EC for over a decade and never got past round 3...then goes to Tatum and wins 2 state championships.  Nobody finds that odd?

Now I’m not saying a good coach won’t make a difference.  But if it was all about coaching then why are the same schools successful regardless of who coaches them?  And on that same note why have previously successful coaches not successful every year?  Well..I hate to break it to you but it’s because the rosters change every year.  Some years you have good players.  Some years you don’t.  And sometimes you don’t have good players but everyone else sucks just a little bit more.

If you don’t believe that then you probably think Cornell Thompson could win a title at Tarkington (1 of several examples).  Which is a joke.  You probably also think Westerberg will win a title at BH.  No offense...but that’s not happening either.

Just curious:  What in Cornel's past would lead you to think that he couldn't win at Tarkington?  Or any where else for that matter?

[Huffman Hargrave Falcons72]

Yes Coaches that can motivate, evaluate talent, and put athletes in the right spots to win.  Some coaches get complacent and comfortable and some just dont care enough.  Here in Huffman we have talented kids quit sports every year due to some of these coaches..

[oldschool2]

18 hours ago, Dawgs12345 said:

Carthage hadn't won a championship ever. Had only played in 1 in the history of the program. In the 7 years prior to Surratt arriving in 2007, Carthage had 2 1-9 seasons. Had not been out of the 2nd round of the playoffs in that decade. Surratt comes to town and 11 years later he has more championships than playoff losses. The jimmies and joes did not change. Coaching matters.

Had Allen won many before Westerberg?  But I guess that didn’t have anything to do with having the most prolific high school qb that’s ever taken a snap.  By the way Allen is still winning them without Westerberg.  But...will he win another title?  I certainly don’t think so at BH.  And Tod Dodge won 4 in a row a while back at Southlake Carroll.  Hasn’t even coached in a title game since...is he a worse coach now?

If it was ALL ABOUT the coach then the same coach would win the championship every year.

[oldschool2]

10 hours ago, Reagan said:

Just curious:  What in Cornel's past would lead you to think that he couldn't win at Tarkington?  Or any where else for that matter?

It has nothing to do with Cornell’s past.  And everything to do with the fact that WOS has kids that play FBS football every year.  Has Tarkington ever had a kid play at ... a school like Alabama?  If you think Cornell Thompson could go to Tarkington and they start having kids play big time D1 and start winning state titles then you’re wrong.  There’s a reason he doesn’t leave WOS for more money.  That’s probably because he’d rather keep winning than make more money and lose.

[bronco pride]

9 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

Had Allen won many before Westerberg?  But I guess that didn’t have anything to do with having the most prolific high school qb that’s ever taken a snap.  By the way Allen is still winning them without Westerberg.  But...will he win another title?  I certainly don’t think so at BH.  And Tod Dodge won 4 in a row a while back at Southlake Carroll.  Hasn’t even coached in a title game since...is he a worse coach now?

If it was ALL ABOUT the coach then the same coach would win the championship every year.

Thought Dodge just took Westlake to a title game a couple years ago against NS. Kid missed a chip shot fg or he would have won.

[oldschool2]

4 minutes ago, bronco pride said:

Thought Dodge just took Westlake to a title game a couple years ago against NS

And Austin Westlake is precisely the type of affluent area that’s going to have some relative success all the time.  But since you brought it up...why didn’t he win it?  Matter of fact, why weren’t they in the title game this year?  

[bronco pride]

8 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

And Austin Westlake is precisely the type of affluent area that’s going to have some relative success all the time.  But since you brought it up...why didn’t he win it?  Matter of fact, why weren’t they in the title game this year?  

He didn't win it because a kid missed a 27 yd fg to win the game and they lost in OT. This year he was 14-1 and was beat in the semis by Cy Fair by 6 pts I believe. The same Cy Fair that blew out Waco ithe next week. I would say he has done a great job.

[oldschool2]

6 minutes ago, bronco pride said:

He didn't win it because a kid missed a 27 yd fg to win the game and they lost in OT. This year he was 14-1 and was beat in the semis by Cy Fair by 6 pts I believe. The same Cy Fair that blew out Waco ithe next week. I would say he has done a great job.

Did I say he isn’t doing a good job?

[ctown81]

The OP is missing an important point. Surratt is the GOAT of east texas, but a lot had to do with his staff. I'm curious about the teams that kept winning after their coach left. I wonder the the majority of the staff stay. With that being said, if Surratt and his staff leaves Carthage, bye bye state titles.

[oldschool2]

6 minutes ago, ctown81 said:

The OP is missing an important point. Surratt is the GOAT of east texas, but a lot had to do with his staff. I'm curious about the teams that kept winning after their coach left. I wonder the the majority of the staff stay. With that being said, if Surratt and his staff leaves Carthage, bye bye state titles.

How do you explain Lake Travis winning 5 in a row under 3 different head coaches?

By the way...a MAJORITY of the time the new AD brings their own people.  Especially at a school that size.

[bronco pride]

9 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

Did I say he isn’t doing a good job?

No. You actually said he hadn't been to a title game at Westlake. 

[oldschool2]

5 minutes ago, bronco pride said:

No. You actually said he hadn't been to a title game at Westlake. 

You’re right.  I meant he hadn’t won one.  And after winning 4 in a row not very long ago...you’d think he’d just keep getting rings.  Since it’s all about coaching like some think.

[ctown81]

27 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

How do you explain Lake Travis winning 5 in a row under 3 different head coaches?

By the way...a MAJORITY of the time the new AD brings their own people.  Especially at a school that size.

I'm just curious did they bring their own people. It happens

[oldschool2]

8 minutes ago, ctown81 said:

I'm just curious did they bring their own people. It happens

Yeah that’s kinda helping my point.  When a staff gets replaced but the school keeps winning...