The coach debate

[oldschool2]

21 minutes ago, Bears in Hibernation said:

1980                    3-7-0         167-187         Phillip Brown
1981                    3-7-0         104-159         Phillip Brown
1982                    5-5-0         144-158         Phillip Brown
1983                    5-5-0         134-130         Phillip Brown
1984                    6-4-0         173-118         Phillip Brown
1985                    4-5-1         127-186         J.R. Jones
1986                    1-8-1           87-254         J.R. Jones
1987                   0-10-0          48-305         Nolan Viator
1988                    3-6-0           76-145         Nolan Viator
1989                    2-8-0           96-216         Jay Law
1990                   0-10-0        115-398         Jay Law
1991                    1-9-0           93-310         Jay Law
1992                    2-8-0           99-224         Jay Law
1993                   0-10-0          81-272         Jay Law
1994                    2-8-0         149-304         Pat Murphy
1995                   0-10-0          79-344         Pat Murphy
1996                    5-5-0         148-160         Pat Murphy
1997                    2-8-0           75-385         Kevin Johnson
1998                    1-9-0         118-298         Kevin Johnson
1999                    5-5-0         201-187         Jeff Mathews
2000       T           4-7-0         208-226         Jeff Mathews
2001                    6-4-0         183-198         Jeff Mathews
2002                    6-4-0         217-153         Jeff Mathews
2003                    2-8-0         149-233         Jeff Mathews
2004                    3-6-0         180-223         Jeff Mathews
2005                    4-4-0         211-154         Jeff Mathews
2006                    3-7-0         223-279         Jeff Mathews
2007                    2-8-0         157-237         Jeff Mathews
2008                    5-4-0         218-162         Jeff Mathews
2009       F--         7-4-0         345-245         Jeff Mathews
2010                    2-8-0         182-292         Jeff Mathews
2011       T--       10-3-0         384-290         Jeff Mathews
2012       R           9-2-0         447-216         Jeff Mathews
2013                    4-6-0         303-274         Jeff Mathews
2014                    2-8-0         251-358         Jeff Mathews
2015                    3-7-0         279-351         Jeff Mathews
2016      TRI-        8-3-0         362-247         Jeff Mathews
Okay heres vidor one of the most losing programs in the state by the record book. Can you atleast tell me if Jeff Mathews has done a better job then the guys before him? Vidor has no growth and nothing has really changed in 30 years. To yall Vidor fans I'm not trying to cut yall down I'm just trying to show him that coaches do a better jobs then others. Talent does take how far in the playoffs you go but without good coaching to keep it together it will fall apart. 

From my original post.

”Now I’m not saying a good coach won’t make a difference.”

[Tiger33]

Are you an old football coach? Also do you know any state championship teams that won one with the least amount of talent?   

[oldschool2]

4 minutes ago, Bears in Hibernation said:

Are you an old football coach? Also do you know any state championship teams that won one with the least amount of talent?   

Negative.  I just have a lot of buddies from my college basketball days that coach.  And a lot of family.

And LEAST talent?  No.  Less talent? All the time.  That just happened with Highland Park.  They still had a ton of talent just not as much as Manvel.  I’m actually surprised it was even close.

[CardinalBacker]

3 hours ago, oldschool2 said:

Negative.  I just have a lot of buddies from my college basketball days that coach.  And a lot of family.

And LEAST talent?  No.  Less talent? All the time.  That just happened with Highland Park.  They still had a ton of talent just not as much as Manvel.  I’m actually surprised it was even close.

That’s what I was thinking. Highland Park was nowhere near the same league as Manvel, athletically speaking. It was impressive to watch the HP execution all game long against a superior team. 

A good coaching staff (not just the HC) is one of the keys to sustaining repetitive success. For the sake of argument, I’d say that a coach of Surratt’s caliber could take a school like  Silsbee to the SC in short order IF the kids and their parents bought in. Not a knock on Coach Smith, and he might get them there soon. 

[WOSgrad]

4 hours ago, Reagan said:

I've had a coach tell me this and he has never won a Title.  I've had a coach tell me you can win with anything and he has 2 Titles.  So...

Which coach is the one with 2 titles?

[bronco pride]

50 minutes ago, CardinalBacker said:

That’s what I was thinking. Highland Park was nowhere near the same league as Manvel, athletically speaking. It was impressive to watch the HP execution all game long against a superior team. 

A good coaching staff (not just the HC) is one of the keys to sustaining repetitive success. For the sake of argument, I’d say that a coach of Surratt’s caliber could take a school like  Silsbee to the SC in short order IF the kids and their parents bought in. Not a knock on Coach Smith, and he might get them there soon. 

HP had the best high school football player on the field. Kid might not have the size to be a stud at the college level but definitely had enough talent to dominate at the high school level. Him and that #88 shredded that Manvel defense that had all those athletes. Also Manvel is a very well coached team I just think HP could do something that equalizes everything. They could throw the heck out of the ball.

[itsallabouttheH]

If you think Art Briles could go to Scarbough HS and win a title in 6-7 years......your NOT sober.

[Reagan]

2 hours ago, WOSgrad said:

Which coach is the one with 2 titles?

Doug Ethridge...

[Reagan]

2 hours ago, itsallabouttheH said:

If you think Art Briles could go to Scarbough HS and win a title in 6-7 years......your NOT sober.

Someone could have said the same thing about Stephenville before he arrived there!  BTW:  Why do you think the kids at Scarbrough are any different than the kids at Stepenville when Briles arrived there?

[Reagan]

3 hours ago, CardinalBacker said:

That’s what I was thinking. Highland Park was nowhere near the same league as Manvel, athletically speaking. It was impressive to watch the HP execution all game long against a superior team. 

A good coaching staff (not just the HC) is one of the keys to sustaining repetitive success. For the sake of argument, I’d say that a coach of Surratt’s caliber could take a school like  Silsbee to the SC in short order IF the kids and their parents bought in. Not a knock on Coach Smith, and he might get them there soon. 

I wonder what Surratt could have done with PN-G or Nederland this year?  Interesting thought!

[WOSgrad]

3 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Doug Ethridge...

Well, that is funny because the most remembered line uttered by Cornel Thompson, who coaching skills you have espoused here, is that "You can't win the Kentucky Derby with a mule."

Coaching may be part of the equation, but it is by no means the complete formula.

 

[WOSgrad]

49 minutes ago, Reagan said:

I wonder what Surratt could have done with PN-G or Nederland this year?  Interesting thought!

Are you willing to have either PN-G or Nederland ISD pay $160,000/year to find out?

[L-Train11]

The reason this argument is never ending is because both sides are right. Good coaching can help a poor program, just like poor coaching can kill a good program. But you’ve got to have the talent as well. Otherwise, as stated by somebody else on another thread, the same COACH would win every year.

Now, I do believe that each side plays its own part at certain times throughout the year. Talent can get wins and can get you to the playoffs, and talent can get you district championships. But the further you advance and as the talent level starts to even out between teams, that’s when coaching wins ball games. And the better coached teams is usually who wins, but it’s not because of coaching alone. The talent is surely there as well.

[Reagan]

54 minutes ago, WOSgrad said:

Are you willing to have either PN-G or Nederland ISD pay $160,000/year to find out?

No!  LOL!   Like I said, would be interesting to think about.  But, a Title is not worth that type money.  Other things are more important.

[Reagan]

50 minutes ago, WOSgrad said:

Well, that is funny because the most remembered line uttered by Cornel Thompson, who coaching skills you have espoused here, is that "You can't win the Kentucky Derby with a mule."

Coaching may be part of the equation, but it is by no means the complete formula.

 

I would venture to say you put some of the other local coaches in charge of the Mustangs the last three years and they would not be shooting for a 3-peat.  I doubt the 'Stangs would have been in the first one!  IMHO!   BTW:  Coaches have a bunch of witty sayings.  Cornel would be selling himself short if he actually believed he had just a little to do with their success.

[WOSgrad]

4 minutes ago, Reagan said:

I would venture to say you put some of the other local coaches in charge of the Mustangs the last three years and they would not be shooting for a 3-peat.  I doubt the 'Stangs would have been in the first one!  IMHO!   BTW:  Coaches have a bunch of witty sayings.  Cornel would be selling himself short if he actually believed he had just a little to do with their success.

If Coach Thompson, is selling himself short he is the only one around here that does it and I will certainly not engage in that task.  That being said, he realizes that as I said, he is part of the formula, but not the complete formula.  The same can be said with Scott Surratt, who while deserving of all of the praise that he gets, I am sure that he hits his knees on a nightly basis thanking the Good Lord that the Ingram boys and Trevor Cupps attend school in the Carthage ISD.

You see, it is more than a coach or a player, IT IS A CULTURE!  It is a 1) good coach, 2) good players and 3) a community that is willing to let both of the first elements do what they do best.  That is what is present in Newton and the cities of Orange, West Orange and Pinehurst.  It is a community that believes in the coach and a coach that believes in the community.  W.T. Johnston can make the hard decisions because he knows that he doesn't have to worry about folks going on his property under the cover of night and placing "for sale" signs in his yard after a rare loss.  Cornel Thompson doesn't have to worry about someone trying to dial up Rickie Harris or one of the members of the board of trustees if lil' Johnny ain't playing.  It is young men who know from the time that they can walk what is expected of them is they want to wear a silver helmet or the purple eagle jersey.

Much to dismay of some folks here, there is no lacking of elements 1) or 2) in most districts in the area, it is 3) that is usually sorely lacking!

[Reagan]

55 minutes ago, WOSgrad said:

If Coach Thompson, is selling himself short he is the only one around here that does it and I will certainly not engage in that task.  That being said, he realizes that as I said, he is part of the formula, but not the complete formula.  The same can be said with Scott Surratt, who while deserving of all of the praise that he gets, I am sure that he hits his knees on a nightly basis thanking the Good Lord that the Ingram boys and Trevor Cupps attend school in the Carthage ISD.

You see, it is more than a coach or a player, IT IS A CULTURE!  It is a 1) good coach, 2) good players and 3) a community that is willing to let both of the first elements do what they do best.  That is what is present in Newton and the cities of Orange, West Orange and Pinehurst.  It is a community that believes in the coach and a coach that believes in the community.  W.T. Johnston can make the hard decisions because he knows that he doesn't have to worry about folks going on his property under the cover of night and placing "for sale" signs in his yard after a rare loss.  Cornel Thompson doesn't have to worry about someone trying to dial up Rickie Harris or one of the members of the board of trustees if lil' Johnny ain't playing.  It is young men who know from the time that they can walk what is expected of them is they want to wear a silver helmet or the purple eagle jersey.

Much to dismay of some folks here, there is no lacking of elements 1) or 2) in most districts in the area, it is 3) that is usually sorely lacking!

Oh, I agree, there are different influences that can be a distraction.  But, one must remember, and you must agree -- winning solves a lot of problems!

[WOSgrad]

39 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Oh, I agree, there are different influences that can be a distraction.  But, one must remember, and you must agree -- winning solves a lot of problems!

By the same token, there are a lot of problems that PREVENT winning, and very few of them involve the coach.

[oldschool2]

18 minutes ago, WOSgrad said:

By the same token, there are a lot of problems that PREVENT winning, and very few of them involve the coach.

Fact.

2 hours ago, Reagan said:

No!  LOL!   Like I said, would be interesting to think about.  But, a Title is not worth that type money.  Other things are more important.

No offense...but this response sums up the culture of most of this area.  Schools like Carthage DO think a title is worth that type of money.  Which is what explains his salary, the turf college level field, the 100 yard indoor practice field, the $100K instant replay screen...etc.  You may not think all that matters but it’s doing his recruiting without him trying.  Not to mention the type of community support it shows to allow a high school to spend that type of money on football.

[oldschool2]

2 hours ago, Reagan said:

I would venture to say you put some of the other local coaches in charge of the Mustangs the last three years and they would not be shooting for a 3-peat.  I doubt the 'Stangs would have been in the first one!  IMHO!   BTW:  Coaches have a bunch of witty sayings.  Cornel would be selling himself short if he actually believed he had just a little to do with their success.

And don’t mean to shortchange any accomplishments...because it is certainly a feat of Hall of Fame proportions.  But let’s not forget.  Before the UIL literally split the classifications in half WOS wasn’t even getting out of the region.  And Newton wasn’t either.  

[EAGLEFOREVER]

One more thing I forgot is a little bit of luck( bounce of the ball), if not for that North Shore has another State Championship.

[EAGLEFOREVER]

8 hours ago, oldschool2 said:

And don’t mean to shortchange any accomplishments...because it is certainly a feat of Hall of Fame proportions.  But let’s not forget.  Before the UIL literally split the classifications in half WOS wasn’t even getting out of the region.  And Newton wasn’t either.  

Beg to differ we won our first title when only the District Champion advanced and the districts were not split.

[CardinalBacker]

8 hours ago, oldschool2 said:

And don’t mean to shortchange any accomplishments...because it is certainly a feat of Hall of Fame proportions.  But let’s not forget.  Before the UIL literally split the classifications in half WOS wasn’t even getting out of the region.  And Newton wasn’t either.  

That's true... with 12 state championships handed out per year (instead of the old 5), it does seem to get a little more diluted to be a "State Champion." Still a great accomplishment, but not nearly as tough as it used to be, I suppose.  

 

[oldschool2]

1 hour ago, EAGLEFOREVER said:

Beg to differ we won our first title when only the District Champion advanced and the districts were not split.

I meant recently 

[EAGLEFOREVER]

10 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

I meant recently 

There is no recent been this way for twenty years