High School Refs

[OneChance]

Tonight it finally came to a head for me. PNG suffered a devastating injury to one of their players will fighting for a rebound. We are not sure the extent of the injury at this time, but it was clear that her feet got completely taken out from underneath her and she fell on her arm without being able to brace herself from the fall. This was with 3:30 left in the game. Now for the ref part, this injury was due to the refs not taking control of the game, this game was poorly officiated and the physicality of the game was allowed at an extreme level. This has gone on for way to long now and it needs to stop before more injuries happen. The refs need to start calling the game the way it is suppose to be called. Watch the college game and the lack of physicality, because the refs call the game the right way! Sorry if this makes no sense because I am fuming mad right now! 

[Mean Machine]

First off, I hope the young lady will be ok and has a very speedy and successful recovery from injury.

Secondly, I had a long post typed in on this but deleted it. I will limit it to these points

1) The potential for injury from a poorly controlled game environment from an officiating perspective is what frightens me the most as the parent of a girl basketball player. 

2) There tends to be an overall apathy towards the fact that the girl's game is allowed to be played at an extremely physical level a lot of the times.

3) I believe this is largely done to keep the games at a "manageable" time frame, because of the fundamental overall lack of skilled players on a large number of high school teams' rosters.

4) The product that Refs calling UIL based games deliver should be like getting a Big Mac from McDonalds, i.e. the SAME no matter which one you go to (anywhere in the country), not all over the place in terms of how they call it. 

5) Two refs on the court for Varsity level play is not enough, there needs to be three. The extracurricular stuff that always escalates does so much more in two ref games as opposed to three ref games.

As with all my posts, they are my opinion. My comments are made with the intent to initiate a healthy discussion on a topic that needs to be addressed. 

 

[OneChance]

My comments are from a pissed off parent who is tired of crappy refs not controlling the games and creating a greater risk for injury.

How come the boys games get the top ref crews in the area? Somebody please explain this too me.

Why does a Varsity game on a Tuesday night last 2 hours, but tournaments continually schedule games an hour and 10 minutes apart?

The way a ref crew calls a game is a HUGE factor in the outcome of the game more times than not when they just refuse to call the game properly!

[Alpha Wolf]

8 hours ago, Mean Machine said:

First off, I hope the young lady will be ok and has a very speedy and successful recovery from injury.

Secondly, I had a long post typed in on this but deleted it. I will limit it to these points

1) The potential for injury from a poorly controlled game environment from an officiating perspective is what frightens me the most as the parent of a girl basketball player. 

2) There tends to be an overall apathy towards the fact that the girl's game is allowed to be played at an extremely physical level a lot of the times.

3) I believe this is largely done to keep the games at a "manageable" time frame, because of the fundamental overall lack of skilled players on a large number of high school teams' rosters.

4) The product that Refs calling UIL based games deliver should be like getting a Big Mac from McDonalds, i.e. the SAME no matter which one you go to (anywhere in the country), not all over the place in terms of how they call it. 

5) Two refs on the court for Varsity level play is not enough, there needs to be three. The extracurricular stuff that always escalates does so much more in two ref games as opposed to three ref games.

As with all my posts, they are my opinion. My comments are made with the intent to initiate a healthy discussion on a topic that needs to be addressed. 

 

 

7 hours ago, OneChance said:

My comments are from a pissed off parent who is tired of crappy refs not controlling the games and creating a greater risk for injury.

How come the boys games get the top ref crews in the area? Somebody please explain this too me.

Why does a Varsity game on a Tuesday night last 2 hours, but tournaments continually schedule games an hour and 10 minutes apart?

The way a ref crew calls a game is a HUGE factor in the outcome of the game more times than not when they just refuse to call the game properly!

Many of our teams just finished their last tournaments of the year this week.  They should see better officiating the remainder of their seasons.  It all boils down to trying to keep the tournaments on schedule.  The more whistles they blow, the longer the game.  Last night in our championship game, there were a lot of calls that were not made for the sake of time.  Our girls can be physical with anybody but we are also good at knocking down free throws as well as we have some depth on our bench if someone does get into foul trouble. 

As me and my freshman daughter sat last night and watched the game, I told her that tournament basketball is more physical and that she has to play through contact that would normally be called a foul in a district game.  She normally plays PG/SG for her team.  Should it be this way that I have to educate my daughter about this when it comes to basketball?  No it shouldn't but it is...

[OneChance]

I educated my daughter about tournament reffing along time ago, but I cringe and hold my breath every time my kid drives to the basket. District play to me still isn’t good enough.

I hear fans say all the time, “Holy cow the girls basketball games are way more physical than the boys games!”

I understand the level of play and basketball iq in the boys game is higher, so what that means is the girls game should be officiated way tougher to take some of this crap away from the game. If a defender is riding on the PG’s hip all the way down the court, the foul should get called when it initially happens on the opposite side of the court, not when getting to the hole and getting knocked down. 

This has been a problem of mine for a long time. Basketball is basketball whether it is youth basketball or NBA basketball, and a foul is a foul no matter what level.

I could be crazy, but sometimes it feels like the refs pick and choose and say “That girl knows how to play so she knows better so I’ll call a foul on her, that girl isn’t a very good player and she probably doesn’t understand the game as much so I won’t call anything on her!”

I am still livid about this, PNG is 3-0 in district about to play against PAM and BH and we will now be without two key players now due to injuries. One was non contact and had nothing to do with refs, but this last one could have been prevented, then to add insult to injury, literally no foul was called and possession was given to the other team after ambulance arrived to take her to hospital.

[MhsTitans]

3 hours ago, OneChance said:

I educated my daughter about tournament reffing along time ago, but I cringe and hold my breath every time my kid drives to the basket. District play to me still isn’t good enough.

I hear fans say all the time, “Holy cow the girls basketball games are way more physical than the boys games!”

I understand the level of play and basketball iq in the boys game is higher, so what that means is the girls game should be officiated way tougher to take some of this crap away from the game. If a defender is riding on the PG’s hip all the way down the court, the foul should get called when it initially happens on the opposite side of the court, not when getting to the hole and getting knocked down. 

This has been a problem of mine for a long time. Basketball is basketball whether it is youth basketball or NBA basketball, and a foul is a foul no matter what level.

I could be crazy, but sometimes it feels like the refs pick and choose and say “That girl knows how to play so she knows better so I’ll call a foul on her, that girl isn’t a very good player and she probably doesn’t understand the game as much so I won’t call anything on her!”

I am still livid about this, PNG is 3-0 in district about to play against PAM and BH and we will now be without two key players now due to injuries. One was non contact and had nothing to do with refs, but this last one could have been prevented, then to add insult to injury, literally no foul was called and possession was given to the other team after ambulance arrived to take her to hospital.

This is true prime example the pam vs vidor  last week. Julia had 3 people on her back the whole game but as soon as she gets a little aggressive the whistle gets blown.

[hjhawks]

As a coach, all you can do is

1.go to tournaments that allot enough time between games where they arent rushed.

2. Play against quality teams that “know how to play” so that the games dont resemble rugby bu players that are unskilled.

3. Teach kids how to negate that type of contact so that it does not become an issue.

Been there, done that... I fee your pain, but do t necessarily put it at the officials feet.  People that put on tournaments need three man crews, but alot of coaches use tournaments as fundraisers instead of a chance to compete and dont want to pay the extra money.

 

[AggiesAreWe]

On 12/30/2018 at 0:17 AM, OneChance said:

My comments are from a pissed off parent who is tired of crappy refs not controlling the games and creating a greater risk for injury.

How come the boys games get the top ref crews in the area? Somebody please explain this too me.

Why does a Varsity game on a Tuesday night last 2 hours, but tournaments continually schedule games an hour and 10 minutes apart?

The way a ref crew calls a game is a HUGE factor in the outcome of the game more times than not when they just refuse to call the game properly!

Simple. The boys games draw more fans therefore there is more ticket sales therefore more of a percentage of the gate for the officials. Economics

[fox]

31 minutes ago, AggiesAreWe said:

Simple. The boys games draw more fans therefore there is more ticket sales therefore more of a percentage of the gate for the officials. Economics

so officials get payed per how many people are at the game?

 

[AggiesAreWe]

20 minutes ago, fox said:

so officials get payed per how many people are at the game?

 

A flat fee then a percentage of gate.

[TxHoops]

Honestly, I might prefer such officiating in the girls’ games.  (But certainly don’t want anyone hurt obviously.)   Not that there aren’t some that play at a high level.  My wife has long contended that if you played a drinking game at most girls’ games where you had to take a shot anytime there was a foul, jump ball, or a girl hits the floor, no one would make it to halftime without dying of alcohol poisoning.   There are exceptions to the rule but when you are used to watching the boys’ game, most of these I see seem like one long whistle.  

[Mean Machine]

 

5 minutes ago, TxHoops said:

Honestly, I might prefer such officiating in the girls’ games.  (But certainly don’t want anyone hurt obviously.)   Not that there aren’t some that play at a high level.  My wife has long contended that if you played a drinking game at most girls’ games where you had to take a shot anytime there was a foul, jump ball, or a girl hits the floor, no one would make it to halftime without dying of alcohol poisoning.   There are exceptions to the rule but when you are used to watching the boys’ game, most of these I see seem like one long whistle.  

I mentioned that above, that the lack of skill at a typical girls high school game makes the game hard to watch and harder to officiate. My daughter is fortunate to play with a great aau organization and watching one of those games versus a typical high school game is unbelievable. To use your analogy, if you watched one of her aau games, maybe you would leave with only a slight buzz, lol.

The main problem I have is that when the refs allow the overly physical play, it takes away what the skilled player (typically one who has spent many hours doing individual training, etc.) has worked on typically for their aau team. The lesser player in affect is rewarded for not being as good the skilled player. Just kind of frustrating.

[OneChance]

17 hours ago, AggiesAreWe said:

Simple. The boys games draw more fans therefore there is more ticket sales therefore more of a percentage of the gate for the officials. Economics

Intresting, I did not know that.

Tournament and game was a three person crew.

Now that I have cooled down a little and talking to friends. I guess what irritates me the most is the inconsistency from one quarter to the next. One half to the next.

The particular game where player was hurt started off like any other game, refs called normal and missed calls like normal, then you could feel the fans starting to get excited the play started getting more and more physical the more excited the fans became, but the as the energy in the gym and the physicality of the game increased the refs whistles decreased. Almost like the refs started watching the game instead of reffing the game, this to me is where the refs have to step in and get control the game. You don’t want to take the energy out of the gym, but you can’t allow it to get out of hand and allow the potential for injury to happen. Don’t get me wrong here, this injury was an accident and may have still happened with the best refs in the world. 

[Mean Machine]

Barbers Hill Tournament was two person crews. Not sure about the Saturday games wasn't there. Two is not enough to control game.

[Mean Machine]

I was informed by a person I know that per UIL rules, refs get paid flat rate plus flat rate travel, depending on distance. The days of percentage of the gate are done. UIL does not assign officials, the local chapters do.

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Looks like boys or girls game pays the same. It may be that some refs are "above" reffing girls games, and don't want to ref girls games because the games are slower, more boring, etc.

So if someone says they getting part of the gate, that is not legal per UIL rules, according to the person I know. They used to do it that way, but UIL stepped in and changed it.

[About a week ago]

22 hours ago, AggiesAreWe said:

Simple. The boys games draw more fans therefore there is more ticket sales therefore more of a percentage of the gate for the officials. Economics

 

21 hours ago, AggiesAreWe said:

A flat fee then a percentage of gate.

Incorrect. Officials are paid a flat fee for each level they are officiating, then a one time travel fee. Basketball officials do not get any percentage of the gate fee. 

[AggiesAreWe]

2 hours ago, Mean Machine said:

I was informed by a person I know that per UIL rules, refs get paid flat rate plus flat rate travel, depending on distance. The days of percentage of the gate are done. UIL does not assign officials, the local chapters do.

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Looks like boys or girls game pays the same. It may be that some refs are "above" reffing girls games, and don't want to ref girls games because the games are slower, more boring, etc.

So if someone says they getting part of the gate, that is not legal per UIL rules, according to the person I know. They used to do it that way, but UIL stepped in and changed it.

I stand corrected. I thought they still got a percentage of gate.

[Mean Machine]

I think it probably was changed due to the inequities that could arise from refs that got the "good" games when others did not maybe get the opportunity as much. 

Boys game and girls game the ref can make the same money, so that seems ok. Boys game definitely faster paced, girls game slower, maybe you don't have to run as much, but you in theory blow the whistle more, lol.

One more thought then I'm done with this topic. If the girls game got a larger percentage of the "better" refs who call the game by the book, then in theory wouldn't the girls game have a better chance to improve over time because it would take away the crutch of the coach being able to use overt physicality as a strategy, and make the coach have the girls work on skill and technique more in practices?  

[OneChance]

So back to my question, why do the boys games get the better officiating?

Let me be clear, this officiating crew in this particular game was not the worst crew I have ever seen, it was just the icing on the cake for me, because my greatest fear for the girls finally happened. I just bit my tongue and couldn’t bite it anymore after seeing that. (On a positive note, the injured girl had a severe dislocation of the radial bone at the elbow, and should make a fairly quick recovery. There is some nerve damage involved so does have to PT).

[OneChance]

10 minutes ago, Mean Machine said:

I think it probably was changed due to the inequities that could arise from refs that got the "good" games when others did not maybe get the opportunity as much. 

Boys game and girls game the ref can make the same money, so that seems ok. Boys game definitely faster paced, girls game slower, maybe you don't have to run as much, but you in theory blow the whistle more, lol.

One more thought then I'm done with this topic. If the girls game got a larger percentage of the "better" refs who call the game by the book, then in theory wouldn't the girls game have a better chance to improve over time because it would take away the crutch of the coach being able to use overt physicality as a strategy, and make the coach have the girls work on skill and technique more in practices?  

Amen, this I guess is where I am going with part of this. Bad officiating to me punishes the more skilled players, due to the unskilled just playing street (Gorilla) ball and not getting called for it, force these coaches to teach players a more fundamental game.

I hear it over and over by people that come and watch a girls game for the first time, “Geez, girls basketball is brutal, these refs don’t call anything!”

I want to also say, I understand officiating is very difficult and they are not going to see every foul, double dribble, carry and travel. I just wish they would try and eliminate the physicality of the game. And yes, lol, this would help PNG’s game, but I truly and honestly just want to try and protect the girls from injuries that maybe could have been prevented. All I have to say on this subject as well.

[BH85]

On 12/30/2018 at 2:17 PM, OneChance said:

 

Why does a Varsity game on a Tuesday night last 2 hours, but tournaments continually schedule games an hour and 10 minutes apart?

2 hour games would usually mean bad play and shouldn't be the norm. 

[Alpha Wolf]

19 hours ago, Mean Machine said:

Barbers Hill Tournament was two person crews. Not sure about the Saturday games wasn't there. Two is not enough to control game.

I remember seeing 3 for the championship game between United and GC-M.