OFFICER INVOLVED SHOOTING

[tvc184]

This incident caused a lot of media buzz and accusations  

This is the hidden content, please

• Sign In
• or
• Sign Up

[Ty Cobb]

Did I read correctly that there was a planned protest?  What were people going to protest?  

[LumRaiderFan]

14 minutes ago, Ty Cobb said:

Did I read correctly that there was a planned protest?  What were people going to protest?  

Sounds like they postponed after seeing the footage.

What was he supposed to do, wait for him to swing?

As far as I can see, he waited about as long as you possibly could.

Sad situation all around.

[tvc184]

4 hours ago, Ty Cobb said:

Did I read correctly that there was a planned protest?  What were people going to protest?  

I think that they were going to protest the non-release of the video. The claim was (I think) that the city was covering up the incident and that the officer was wrong. That was the basis of the planned protest. Once the video was released then the protest was not necessary. 

[WOSdrummer99]

It's hard to know what his intentions were as he failed to put down the machete. Unloading a full clip was excessive. But unfortunately I don't think officers are trained to wound suspects.

[tvc184]

2 hours ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

It's hard to know what his intentions were as he failed to put down the machete. Unloading a full clip was excessive. But unfortunately I don't think officers are trained to wound suspects.

... but if the media would have shown the uncut version. 

I saw people on another forum say that he fell on the first shot (I guess assumed because the video stopped) therefore it was excessive. 

He didn’t go down or even stagger for the first few shots. 

I guess unload is just a term meaning several shots. 

[WOSdrummer99]

43 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

... but if the media would have shown the uncut version. 

I saw people on another forum say that he fell on the first shot (I guess assumed because the video stopped) therefore it was excessive. 

He didn’t go down or even stagger for the first few shots. 

I guess unload is just a term meaning several shots. 

KFDM reported he began to fall on the 5th shot but 7 were fired. I just feel that more should have been done to preserve life. The officer didn't retreat to more defensive position or wait for backup. Does PAPD not have funding for non lethal alternatives?

[mat]

A more non lethal approach would be to drop the machete or just stop walking. It was completely justified. Very unfortunate for his family.

[tvc184]

3 hours ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

KFDM reported he began to fall on the 5th shot but 7 were fired. I just feel that more should have been done to preserve life. The officer didn't retreat to more defensive position or wait for backup. Does PAPD not have funding for non lethal alternatives?

This was not a non lethal situation. 

[WOSdrummer99]

2 hours ago, mat said:

A more non lethal approach would be to drop the machete or just stop walking. It was completely justified. Very unfortunate for his family.

Agree that he should have followed the directions. But was the officer's life really in danger? Or could he have attempted to descalate the situation? He may have been cleared by the department, but still not right in taking a life.

[WOSdrummer99]

7 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

This was not a non lethal situation. 

Why is that? Did he already attack someone else? I saw no blood on the blade. All he did was bring a knife to a gunfight.

[tvc184]

3 hours ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

KFDM reported he began to fall on the 5th shot but 7 were fired. I just feel that more should have been done to preserve life. The officer didn't retreat to more defensive position or wait for backup. Does PAPD not have funding for non lethal alternatives?

As far as the shots, most officers can fire 4-5 shots per second. This officer fired 8 in about 2 seconds. Angel San Juan even reports (since he saw the tape that the mediythen altered) that the guy started to stagger at 5 shots.  That means that the officer stopped firing about 1/2 to 3/4 of a second later.  That is just about the time it takes for the human brain to perceive the action and then take the appropriate response. We probably all remember from drivers Ed that if you’re going at highway speeds and somebody pulls out in front of you, you’ll probably go over 100 feet before you can hit the brake. That is because of the time that it takes the brain to perceive the threat and then change that to action. That is exactly the same  situation that the video conference. It is nonsensical to think that a threat ends and in 1/100 of a second later the human body responds. That simply is not how it works. 

[tvc184]

8 minutes ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

Agree that he should have followed the directions. But was the officer's life really in danger? Or could he have attempted to descalate the situation? He may have been cleared by the department, but still not right in taking a life.

I think that if somebody walked toward you with a machete and you pulled a firearm and told that person to stop and he continued to walk within arms length of you, you would not try to use harsh language or reasoning to stop him  

 

[tvc184]

8 minutes ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

Why is that? Did he already attack someone else? I saw no blood on the blade. All he did was bring a knife to a gunfight.

 Because no one from a civilian taking a self-defense class to the police or to the military is trained or convinced that you try to stop from being killed by using other methods than deadly force. 

 After reading hundreds of comments on various forums I have a lot of “what iffers”. 

 What if he really wasn’t going to use the machete? What is the officer was the best shot in the world and could somehow hit a 3 inch wide moving target (kneecap) while under stress?  What if the officer would have just turned his back and run? What if the officer would have just ignored the situation even if it would’ve cost a civilian his life? 

 There is one person that caused this situation. That person is deceased. We will never know what was in his mind and why he did what he did. He made the decision however. It seems like a few people in the public have completely ignored that a man iwas a definite threat to the officer and the public, walked directly at an officer without flinching and without making any attempt  to comply or to communicate. 

 I have the suspicion that about 98% of the people who are criticizing the officer, if faced with exactly the same situation and with a firearm to defend themselves, would not acted like the officer did. They would not have waited as long as the officer did to keep from having to shoot and would have started firing much sooner. 

 There are probably more Monday morning Chairborne Rangers in this incident  then there are Saturday morning quarterbacks after a high school football game. 

[WOSdrummer99]

5 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

I think that if somebody walked toward you with a machete and you pulled a firearm and told that person to stop and he continued to walk within arms length of you, you would not try to use harsh language or reasoning to stop him  

 

Even if I pulled my weapon in attempt to control the situation. I would only shoot as a last resort. And as long as the aggressor only had a machete, I personally would have no problem staying out of range. Shoot to kill shouldn't be the norm. 

[tvc184]

33 minutes ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

Even if I pulled my weapon in attempt to control the situation. I would only shoot as a last resort. And as long as the aggressor only had a machete, I personally would have no problem staying out of range. Shoot to kill shouldn't be the norm. 

Great, the officer waited until the last resort. We finally agree. 

As far as the “norm”, police shootings are far from it. I personally could have lawfully shot several people in my career. Some in hindsight I probably should have but got away with holding back.  Most officers could probably say the same. 

That is also why some officers are killed, by waiting and trying not to shoot. 

[Ty Cobb]

Not only was the man walking done the street with a machete, moving it back and forth in a very weird manner, but why did he start walking towards the officer? The officer’s only command was to drop the knife/machete. As soon as he ignored the commands and started to approach the officer, he was a threat. There’s no way the officer could have waited any longer to protect him self. What else was he supposed to do, run around the police car and play chase with the guy?

[baddog]

Some people are hell bent on police assisted suicide. I think the officer showed incredible patience. He wouldn’t have gotten that close to me.

[tvc184]

49 minutes ago, baddog said:

Some people are hell bent on police assisted suicide. I think the officer showed incredible patience. He wouldn’t have gotten that close to me.

 After reading hundreds of comments on Facebook I sometimes wonder, are we even watching the same video?

How far can someone go to make excuses? This should have been one of the easiest and most clear examples of law enforcement use of deadly force. Some people will still try to find some reason to show that the officer did the wrong thing, no matter how nonsensical. 

 I don’t care if the guy committed no crime. Let’s say that they were both on the sidewalk facing each other. If someone comes at me with a bladed instrument at the ready and Imorder him at gunpoint to put it down for my safety, it doesn’t matter what law he may have broken or what his intent was.  I would completely expect the same thing from a civilian in the same place as the officer. 

 

[baddog]

2 hours ago, tvc184 said:

 After reading hundreds of comments on Facebook I sometimes wonder, are we even watching the same video?

How far can someone go to make excuses? This should have been one of the easiest and most clear examples of law enforcement use of deadly force. Some people will still try to find some reason to show that the officer did the wrong thing, no matter how nonsensical. 

 I don’t care if the guy committed no crime. Let’s say that they were both on the sidewalk facing each other. If someone comes at me with a bladed instrument at the ready and Imorder him at gunpoint to put it down for my safety, it doesn’t matter what law he may have broken or what his intent was.  I would completely expect the same thing from a civilian in the same place as the officer. 

 

Who knows what was going on in this guy’s mind? I think some people wake up in the morning and decide that this will be the day that they die. They then proceed to bring about that situation by wielding a machete at a police officer, knowing full well the consequences.....does not matter. Sometimes they want to take someone with them. Assisted suicide? Maybe, but either way, they know they will be dead before the day is over. Just my take.

[WOSdrummer99]

Only time will tell. I'm sure this is far from over. I feel for both sides. The family dealing with an unfortunate loss. And the officer who will have this weighing on his conscience.

Side ?

Have any of you law enforcement officers killed someone in the line of duty?

[tvc184]

1 hour ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

Only time will tell. I'm sure this is far from over. I feel for both sides. The family dealing with an unfortunate loss. And the officer who will have this weighing on his conscience.

Side ?

Have any of you law enforcement officers killed someone in the line of duty?

This is over except for the obligatory lawsuit. I am fairly certain that it will be settled out of court as no plaintiff attorney will likely want to show the entire idea to a jury and ask if the officer was justified or if it was wrongful death. 

I have never killed anyone but my partner killed a guy about 10 feet in front of me. 

[WOSdrummer99]

I appreciate your honesty 

[Hagar]

A point to remember, if the officer doesn’t shoot, and backs away, what if the man turns, running toward the lady and hacks her to death?  Can you imagine the finger pointing at the officer?  IMO, he showed a hugh amount of constraint.  I’m curious about the dead man’s toxicology report.  

[LumRaiderFan]

3 hours ago, Hagar said:

A point to remember, if the officer doesn’t shoot, and backs away, what if the man turns, running toward the lady and hacks her to death?  Can you imagine the finger pointing at the officer?  IMO, he showed a hugh amount of constraint.  I’m curious about the dead man’s toxicology report.  

Exactly right, you are very vulnerable if you turn your back at that close range or even if you try to back peddle.

Drop the machete if you don't want to get shot.