West Hardin

[AHUDDLESTON]

Demand! I would be willing to bet that less than 10% of the schools in Texas have every teaching spot filled by certified teachers.  Today, according to just one teacher job board(tasa), there are 2790 teaching positions open.  I have been in Alief now for 6 years and we have not been at full staff at anytime. That is with one of the highest salary in Houston area and the best benefits.   

[oldschool2]

7 minutes ago, waltersobchak said:

you cant apply capitalist ideals to socialist ideas like public education

but the salary is part of the reason WH struggles to find teachers

You can... in terms of a public school salary because they're not all the same.  So.  If West Hardin teachers aren't satisfied with the salary that they are receiving at the West Hardin public school then they actually have options.  They can: 1. Keep complaining about their salary yet go to work every day for that salary anyway. 2. Stop going to work and refuse to work at West Hardin public school until the school either replace them or is forced to figure out a way to pay more money if it can't hire more teachers. 3. Apply and go to work for a different public school that pays more money.  Same is true for class size.. not happy with the number of kids you have in class?  See above options ^.  Not happy with the school contribution to benefits?  Above options ^. 

[CardinalBacker]

26 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

Actually, it's not our or anyone else's opinion concerning the salaries of teacher, doctors, oil field workers or anyone else.  We live in a capitalist economy where supply/demand drives everything.  The demand for medical field employees is much higher so they get paid more.  Just like their services cost more.  As long as there are teachers willing to work for 40K/year then that's what they will get paid.  Maybe teachers should just walk away or refuse to work and then we'll see how important an education really is.  Or not.  It's whatever to me.. I also know a lot of teachers that are perfectly happy with how much they get paid.  We are, in fact, talking about the salary at West Hardin.  Other schools pay a lot more so teachers could go to work somewhere else. 

The exception is that WE all pay teachers' salaries.  I choose who to buy a car from.  I choose which doctor to see.  I decide where to shop for groceries. Those people EARN my business.  Teachers just show up, work a part time gig, and demand more money from the people who didn't even hire them.  

It's kinda like when politicians get elected and then give themselves raises.  They knew the salary when they ran for office.  Teachers knew what to expect, but they preferred a 8-3:30, M-F, seasonal job that offers benefits and an early retirement.  Great.  So you got what you wanted, stop complaining.  

Like I said... take two weeks off per year like the rest of us... until then you don't have a full-time job, so stop crying that you don't make as much money as the people who chose career paths that require full-time participation.  

[CardinalBacker]

5 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

You can... in terms of a public school salary because they're not all the same.  So.  If West Hardin teachers aren't satisfied with the salary that they are receiving at the West Hardin public school then they actually have options.  They can: 1. Keep complaining about their salary yet go to work every day for that salary anyway. 2. Stop going to work and refuse to work at West Hardin public school until the school either replace them or is forced to figure out a way to pay more money if it can't hire more teachers. 3. Apply and go to work for a different public school that pays more money.  Same is true for class size.. not happy with the number of kids you have in class?  See above options ^.  Not happy with the school contribution to benefits?  Above options ^. 

I honestly didn't think we'd even come close to agreeing on anything.  But I think we just had a moment.  

 

Teachers comparing their salaries to those of full-time salaries is exactly like those WNBA players saying that they DESERVE salaries like Lebron and Steph Curry.  

[oldschool2]

 

 

 

 

 

 

4

6 minutes ago, CardinalBacker said:

The exception is that WE all pay teachers' salaries.  I choose who to buy a car from.  I choose which doctor to see.  I decide where to shop for groceries. Those people EARN my business.  Teachers just show up, work a part time gig, and demand more money from the people who didn't even hire them.  

It's kinda like when politicians get elected and then give themselves raises.  They knew the salary when they ran for office.  Teachers knew what to expect, but they preferred a 8-3:30, M-F, seasonal job that offers benefits and an early retirement.  Great.  So you got what you wanted, stop complaining.  

Like I said... take two weeks off per year like the rest of us... until then you don't have a full-time job, so stop crying that you don't make as much money as the people who chose career paths that require full-time participation.  

Two things: Not all teachers fit the description you give.  I know plenty who show up early and stay late.  I know plenty who put in more time/days than however many their contract says they have to work because I have a lot of friends/family who teach/coach and several of them have a spouse that teach/coach.  The main difference is that when/if a teacher puts more time in they aren't compensated for it.  A great teacher makes the same as a bad teacher.  You probably are compensated for extra time. Otherwise, I doubt you'd go.  I know I don't.

Second.. you did hire the teachers at your school.  You voted for the school board members that hired the administrators that requested the hire of the teachers.

[CardinalBacker]

3 hours ago, Blockdownandkickout! said:

i'll do it again since  you ignored it last time

 

babysitting = $10 dollars a hour X 30 kid = $300 per hour now most teachers teach 6-7 classes so i'll say 6 hours. 

300 per hour X 6 hours = 1,800 dollars a day. 

1,800 X 180 contract days = 324,000. 

I wish I was paid like a babysitter, now before you get all upset, I don't think teachers should get 300,000 a year. I do think they deserve more than 40,000 somewhere between 70-100. A teacher shouldn't have to work three jobs to make ends meet. This math was brought to you by my 3rd grade math teacher. The reading and writing comprehension from all my English teachers. Thank you. 

Okay... I've ignored you so far because there's no way you're serious.  In fact, I had to skip my morning coffee just to slow my brain down enough to respond.  

Your assessment is faulty.  The girls that work at daycares make $10/hour to babysit a room full of kids.  In fact, they also feed them and wipe hineys.  So, a similarly ridiculous argument would be is that school teachers should make LESS than daycare workers because teachers don't have to do work nearly as hard to take physical care of their students.  

I'll bounce some similar math at you. 

$40,000 per year/182 days per year comes to roughly $220/day.  Divide that by the seven hours per day that teachers actually work 8-3:30 (I'm graciously giving credit for the conference period where teachers drink coffee in the lounge instead of grading papers) and you come out to just over $30/hour... which seems to be in line for a non-hazardous, climate controlled job with no weekends or nights that DOES require the easiest of college degrees. 

 

[CardinalBacker]

To properly address the WH situtation, which is actually the point here... I'd offer this.

If you live in Mid-County and so many of the parents have good-paying careers in the petrochemical industry, and the females can easily work at just about any decent-paying industry that they choose... banking, nursing, etc..... you end up with a community that doesn't begrudge teacher salaries to large extent.  

In the Batson/Saratoga metro area (lol), I'd assume that most families have an annual income less than the salaries that are being decried here.  It makes a difference.  I spent part of my youth in a tiny ISD in which my Dad was actually on the school board for a while.  It's hard to pitch higher salaries for teachers and coaches when the citizens are breaking their backs year around in the oil fields, logging woods, or commuting to Houston and still making less than the school marm.  

FWIW, I have the same reaction to the full time McDonald's workers who demand $15/hour. 

[oldschool2]

 

 

 

 

3

11 minutes ago, CardinalBacker said:

To properly address the WH situtation, which is actually the point here... I'd offer this.

If you live in Mid-County and so many of the parents have good-paying careers in the petrochemical industry, and the females can easily work at just about any decent-paying industry that they choose... banking, nursing, etc..... you end up with a community that doesn't begrudge teacher salaries to large extent.  

In the Batson/Saratoga metro area (lol), I'd assume that most families have an annual income less than the salaries that are being decried here.  It makes a difference.  I spent part of my youth in a tiny ISD in which my Dad was actually on the school board for a while.  It's hard to pitch higher salaries for teachers and coaches when the citizens are breaking their backs year around in the oil fields, logging woods, or commuting to Houston and still making less than the school marm.  

FWIW, I have the same reaction to the full time McDonald's workers who demand $15/hour. 

There is no doubt about this one bit.  In fact, this probably makes up the common core of the average small school board that the pitch would be made to.  A group of school board members that just wouldn't understand the need/want for a teacher salary comparable to a teacher in an inner-city area or even community with a large tax base.  As which I'm sure is the case for most schools the size of West Hardin that isn't just sitting on a pile of tax dollars via industry or natural resources.  Which is probably almost every small school in the state.  But...like I said.  The teachers could easily go to another school is they're willing to trade small class sizes for large ones over an extra $10K or so.  I would imagine that is the reason the options I gave earlier aren't considered by the teachers here or anywhere else that make this amount of money.  They probably don't want to leave because of the current conditions of their classroom and they probably don't want to complain too much out of fear that the only option for a substantial pay increase (because of tax money within the district) is to have fewer teachers...which would, in turn, increase the numbers in a class.  

[rhino1877]

1 hour ago, CardinalBacker said:

The exception is that WE all pay teachers' salaries.  I choose who to buy a car from.  I choose which doctor to see.  I decide where to shop for groceries. Those people EARN my business.  Teachers just show up, work a part time gig, and demand more money from the people who didn't even hire them.  

It's kinda like when politicians get elected and then give themselves raises.  They knew the salary when they ran for office.  Teachers knew what to expect, but they preferred a 8-3:30, M-F, seasonal job that offers benefits and an early retirement.  Great.  So you got what you wanted, stop complaining.  

Like I said... take two weeks off per year like the rest of us... until then you don't have a full-time job, so stop crying that you don't make as much money as the people who chose career paths that require full-time participation.  

Early retirement? Part Time? Get out of here.... Again... Over opinionated.... You know zero about the teaching profession. 

[justthefax]

Cardinal Backer you seem to have some deep seeded frustrations going on.  I don't understand that because I am sure you were one of those guys in school who was a jock - who had a coach that was like a father to you.   Some of your argument makes sense.  The community size and effort.  However, as someone with 4 family members who teach I think I should shed a little light on your thoughts.

First, teachers contracts are for a MINIMUM of 187 days, not 182.  That will cause some adjustment to your daily rate.  I do not know of a single teacher that works an 8:00 - 3:30 day.  In fact, at Bridge City the day officially starts at 7:45 and ends at 3:45.  That is unless there is a faculty meeting or a certification meeting that is held - mandatorily.  The teacher does not make overtime for the extra hour(s).  Nor does the teacher get paid to take home the papers/projects/assignments he or she has to grade.  Nor does the teacher get compensated for all of the paper and pencils they are required to provide for the Larry's and Joe's that will not bring one from home.  Teachers are not compensated for the time they MUST spend in summer conferences.

For a coach it is so much better! I know a coach who kept a log of his schedule during football season.  This is what that looks like...

Monday 7:00 staff meeting.  Football practice from 3:30 - 5:45.  Get kids out of the building and in cars to go home - watch the practice video - plan tomorrow practice.  Go home at 7:15.  (12 hours)

Tuesday (laundry day) 7:00 to put out the laundry for the team.  Same practice schedule -- (12 hours)

Wednesday - 7:45 school.  After planning tomorrow practice - stay and watch about 30 minutes of film for the next opponent. Go home - 8:00 average --  (12 hours)

Thursday - JV game day.  Arrive at 7:00 to pass out uniforms.  School.  Load busses etc...  play a game or two (9th and JV) back home - start the laundry, clean the locker room.  Go home about 9:30 average.  (14.5 hours)

Friday - GAME DAY -- 7:00 arrive (laundry and uniforms), Taping, Film Prep, Meetings, Travel ? - Game. After game duties - Game review with the staff, start laundry, load video into the computer- Go HOME - average 11:30. (17.5 hours)

Saturday - 7:00 arrive.  Grade film. Watch film with the team.  Exercise the team. Send them home and then watch 3 games worth of video of the next opponent.  Staff meeting to generalize game plan.  Go home - 3:00 (8 hours)

Sunday - arrive 2:00.  Game plan.  Authorize game plan as a staff - Go HOME - 6:30 (4.5 hours)

So let's add that up ---  12 + 12 + 12 + 14.5 + 17.5 + 8 + 4.5 = 80.5 hours per week.

Here is the kicker!  Schools pay coaches for all of that time!  Take a look -- BISD football is $3500.  They do not pay the extra 10 days that are required to start in July.  So in BISD - an assistant football coach will make $3500/80.5 hrs per week X 12 weeks minimum.  That is 996 hours minimum for 3500 =  $3.51 per hour.   Wait $3.51 per hour???  For a part time job.  Spring ISD is thought to be one of the better paying stipend schools -- for football they $6500.  Assuming the same schedule --- The better paying schools pay $6.52/hour.  That should make you turn over in your sleep!

Oh yea - you don't get to choose your teacher?  Well, you can change school?  You can go to private school?  You can home school?  And these days -- you can tell your kid to act up in class and report the bad behavior of the teacher to the school board and they will re-assign the teacher.

Fact of the matter is - that all jobs matter. 

 

[oldschool2]

19 minutes ago, justthefax said:

Cardinal Backer you seem to have some deep seeded frustrations going on.  I don't understand that because I am sure you were one of those guys in school who was a jock - who had a coach that was like a father to you.   Some of your argument makes sense.  The community size and effort.  However, as someone with 4 family members who teach I think I should shed a little light on your thoughts.

First, teachers contracts are for a MINIMUM of 187 days, not 182.  That will cause some adjustment to your daily rate.  I do not know of a single teacher that works an 8:00 - 3:30 day.  In fact, at Bridge City the day officially starts at 7:45 and ends at 3:45.  That is unless there is a faculty meeting or a certification meeting that is held - mandatorily.  The teacher does not make overtime for the extra hour(s).  Nor does the teacher get paid to take home the papers/projects/assignments he or she has to grade.  Nor does the teacher get compensated for all of the paper and pencils they are required to provide for the Larry's and Joe's that will not bring one from home.  Teachers are not compensated for the time they MUST spend in summer conferences.

For a coach it is so much better! I know a coach who kept a log of his schedule during football season.  This is what that looks like...

Monday 7:00 staff meeting.  Football practice from 3:30 - 5:45.  Get kids out of the building and in cars to go home - watch the practice video - plan tomorrow practice.  Go home at 7:15.  (12 hours)

Tuesday (laundry day) 7:00 to put out the laundry for the team.  Same practice schedule -- (12 hours)

Wednesday - 7:45 school.  After planning tomorrow practice - stay and watch about 30 minutes of film for the next opponent. Go home - 8:00 average --  (12 hours)

Thursday - JV game day.  Arrive at 7:00 to pass out uniforms.  School.  Load busses etc...  play a game or two (9th and JV) back home - start the laundry, clean the locker room.  Go home about 9:30 average.  (14.5 hours)

Friday - GAME DAY -- 7:00 arrive (laundry and uniforms), Taping, Film Prep, Meetings, Travel ? - Game. After game duties - Game review with the staff, start laundry, load video into the computer- Go HOME - average 11:30. (17.5 hours)

Saturday - 7:00 arrive.  Grade film. Watch film with the team.  Exercise the team. Send them home and then watch 3 games worth of video of the next opponent.  Staff meeting to generalize game plan.  Go home - 3:00 (8 hours)

Sunday - arrive 2:00.  Game plan.  Authorize game plan as a staff - Go HOME - 6:30 (4.5 hours)

So let's add that up ---  12 + 12 + 12 + 14.5 + 17.5 + 8 + 4.5 = 80.5 hours per week.

Here is the kicker!  Schools pay coaches for all of that time!  Take a look -- BISD football is $3500.  They do not pay the extra 10 days that are required to start in July.  So in BISD - an assistant football coach will make $3500/80.5 hrs per week X 12 weeks minimum.  That is 996 hours minimum for 3500 =  $3.51 per hour.   Wait $3.51 per hour???  For a part time job.  Spring ISD is thought to be one of the better paying stipend schools -- for football they $6500.  Assuming the same schedule --- The better paying schools pay $6.52/hour.  That should make you turn over in your sleep!

Oh yea - you don't get to choose your teacher?  Well, you can change school?  You can go to private school?  You can home school?  And these days -- you can tell your kid to act up in class and report the bad behavior of the teacher to the school board and they will re-assign the teacher.

Fact of the matter is - that all jobs matter. 

 

Great point..but to be fair.  40-45 hours of that 80.5 hour week those football coaches are being paid to teach.  Point remains but if we're getting technical that should be adjusted for. 

[88Warrior]

Most people do not know that salaries are around 80% of an ISD’s budget...Most small, rural schools are not sitting on piles of money..There is only so much $$ to go around...If there is no industry in their district then they live and die by their daily attendance ..Say for example you demand your district raise salaries 3% to 83% of budget, your money for books, cafeteria, buses, paper, field trips, extra curricular activities (ie..everything else) goes from 20% down to 17% so what do you cut?? A district pays what it can afford...At any rate I don’t know the specifics with West Hardin about whether or not they have a bad board or good board or if their parents are meddling or not...I just hope for the kids they got a good person to lead their programs..Best of luck to the Oilers..

[waltersobchak]

17 minutes ago, 88Warrior said:

Most people do not know that salaries are around 80% of an ISD’s budget...Most small, rural schools are not sitting on piles of money..There is only so much $$ to go around...If there is no industry in their district then they live and die by their daily attendance ..Say for example you demand your district raise salaries 3% to 83% of budget, your money for books, cafeteria, buses, paper, field trips, extra curricular activities (ie..everything else) goes from 20% down to 17% so what do you cut?? A district pays what it can afford...At any rate I don’t know the specifics with West Hardin about whether or not they have a bad board or good board or if their parents are meddling or not...I just hope for the kids they got a good person to lead their programs..Best of luck to the Oilers..

this is the reason you cannot place capitalist ideals on schools. their funding is totally dependent on funding and taxes

2 hours ago, oldschool2 said:

You can... in terms of a public school salary because they're not all the same.  So.  If West Hardin teachers aren't satisfied with the salary that they are receiving at the West Hardin public school then they actually have options.  They can: 1. Keep complaining about their salary yet go to work every day for that salary anyway. 2. Stop going to work and refuse to work at West Hardin public school until the school either replace them or is forced to figure out a way to pay more money if it can't hire more teachers. 3. Apply and go to work for a different public school that pays more money.  Same is true for class size.. not happy with the number of kids you have in class?  See above options ^.  Not happy with the school contribution to benefits?  Above options ^. 

 

[oldschool2]

38 minutes ago, waltersobchak said:

this is the reason you cannot place capitalist ideals on schools. their funding is totally dependent on funding and taxes

 

The capitalist ideal that you can place on a public school is that if you aren't happy with the salary of the current school you work in then you can go to another public school. Since they all have different funding and a different tax base they all pay different salaries to their employees.  I know their funding is dependent on taxes... I explained in a previous post why going to a small school board and asking for more money wouldn't be good.

[Coach.Shu]

I think we all just need Football to hurry up and begin...

This thread is ridiculous! 

 

[waltersobchak]

53 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

The capitalist ideal that you can place on a public school is that if you aren't happy with the salary of the current school you work in then you can go to another public school. Since they all have different funding and a different tax base they all pay different salaries to their employees.  I know their funding is dependent on taxes... I explained in a previous post why going to a small school board and asking for more money wouldn't be good.

ok let me say it plainly

public education is not capitalist

[AggiesAreWe]

My point was only about the "part time gig" comment.