Houston and Dallas Schools in 4A and 3A

[BADSANTA]

Since the new 4A (old 3A and old 4A lol), is it fair for schools in Dallas and Houston compete in any sports vs smaller towns? I will say, I dont recall a Houston team winning a championship in 4A since the new alignment but how can a town of 3k-10k compete vs a city of 2 million with no zoning. I feel the UIL is a complete joke for allowing this to happen. Last year we saw Faith Family cheated for a ring and it seems this years Yates has done the same. All those schools should compete in 5A or above. Most 4A schools in major cities have a higher drop out rate which keeps them at 4A numbers but not talent pool. 

[Tigers94]

Their argument seems to be they lose a lot of kids to private and academy schools, so everything evens out in the end. I'm sure they do lose kids, but it's still a tremendous advantage when select kids choose to stay and the schools manage to remain in the 3A - 4A classes. 

Afraid there's really nothing that will be done about it. Technically they're playing by the rules.

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

Sigh....... 🤦🏾‍♂️

[no-look]

Using Yates as an example, some schools are magnet schools for basketball. Good players are drawn or “lured” that live in the big city. Just because it’s loopholed legal doesn’t mean it’s right. How  many 4A teams in Yates district competed with them? None that I see. They busted a hundred on all of them. The UIL needs to fix this.  I could care less about watching any of these “magnet” schools play. Especially at the 3A or 4A level where numbers are crucial....I guess I just showed my age and ignorance. 

[BADSANTA]

12 minutes ago, Mohead2000 said:

Nobody says anything when these small town schools beat the big city small schools in other sports like football. You guys can't have it both ways. And the majority of these smaller town schools can compete with and beat pretty much all of the smaller schools in Houston with the exception of Yates. 

Very rare it happens besides football.

[BMTSoulja1]

1 hour ago, Mr. Buddy Garrity said:

Sigh....... 🤦🏾‍♂️

Yea, I'm with you.  Good grief...

[Ghost Writer]

Houston and Dallas are able to get away with recruiting because they are their own DEC (District Executive Committees). the entire 4a district in HISD and DISD work for the same AD respectively. What coach is gonna report kids transferring for athletic purposes within their district with the threat of losing their job  hanging over their head because the district is loading up their "showcase school" ? Also, just like basketball kids are steered to Yates in this way, football kids are steered to a certain school(s) as well. That's why small towns can fair well against most of the other Houston schools and not these. As stated before, if these schools have this unfair advantage then they should either be in 5 or 6a or in their own league. And yes, there are exceptions when talking about small towns competing. However, in most instances, small towns cannot compete on a consistent basis.  

[Setx fan]

2 hours ago, Mohead2000 said:

Nobody says anything when these small town schools beat the big city small schools in other sports like football. You guys can't have it both ways. And the majority of these smaller town schools can compete with and beat pretty much all of the smaller schools in Houston with the exception of Yates. 

 

1 hour ago, Ghost Writer said:

Houston and Dallas are able to get away with recruiting because they are their own DEC (District Executive Committees). the entire 4a district in HISD and DISD work for the same AD respectively. What coach is gonna report kids transferring for athletic purposes within their district with the threat of losing their job  hanging over their head because the district is loading up their "showcase school" ? Also, just like basketball kids are steered to Yates in this way, football kids are steered to a certain school(s) as well. That's why small towns can fair well against most of the other Houston schools and not these. As stated before, if these schools have this unfair advantage then they should either be in 5 or 6a or in their own league. And yes, there are exceptions when talking about small towns competing. However, in most instances, small towns cannot compete on a consistent basis.  

Mohead, I think Ghost Writer explained pretty well why bigger cities have schools that are really good and schools that are really bad. All the really good athletes are lured to certain schools. Football athletes are less likely to be lured to a small school. That’s why the football teams at small schools in big cities are often verry bad. Certain small schools however often benefit from b-ball players being lured there 

[Lions Pride 2021]

Why are we picking on HISD? The school district has ignored the community schools, leaving a lot of kids that can to transfer out because all the good programs are at Lamar, Bellaire, etc. HISDs refusal to bring magnet programs to the inner city has killed these schools.

I wish these schools had the programs that would keep most of the kids in their zone at their schools and bring in a few outside kids as well.

So as long as the enrollment says they're 4A, they're 4A. I believe only two of their 4A schools qualify for DI but all of them are playing up.

Yates has always been good at basketball, going way back to the Prairie View UIL days. To say that the only reason they are good now is that HISD is artificially keeping their enrollment down is ludicrous.

[Kountzer]

Yates is in a perfect location to recruit.  They lose a lot of talent to private schools, but still they are in a good spot.  Lots of AAU activity in that area.  They got UH and TSU really close.  Rice is down the street.  So is St Thomas.  

Yates had some so so years before hiring coach Wise.   Wise is the man for the plan.  He knows how to go out and pull players.  Maybe there is a star player from Arkansas.  Comes to town for AAU.  Sells his parents on being near good colleges.  Sells the kid on playing for a recognized powerhouse in basketball.  Bam, he has a recruit.   Same for African players from the continent.  Many of them value education as much as they like basketball.  Yates being near those colleges doesn't hurt.

Meanwhile HISD is fighting for its life.  If Yates goes down maybe the whole district caves in. So the district ADs favor Yates in basketball.  Booker T Wash. HS has. a nice engineering program.  I've spoken to the coach there a few times.  Nice guy.  But to be able to parlay the engineering magnet school deal into recruiting with Yates is hard to do.  I am not sure what is holding back Bellaire HS and Lamar HS.  All the elites in basketball go to nearby St Johns or Episcopal.  Those schools have good coaches in basketball, I guess, but none of them are on the level of coach Wise.  

 

[GuWop1122]

Is this topic you mentioned just confined to HISD and DISD. I can see the idea of a "showcase school" being nurtured. However, if that is true, Where is the San Antonio and Austin version of this practice?

I'm not saying it does or doesnt happen. Im merely asking if they do it in other metropolitan areas. 

[oldschool2]

2 hours ago, GuWop1122 said:

Is this topic you mentioned just confined to HISD and DISD. I can see the idea of a "showcase school" being nurtured. However, if that is true, Where is the San Antonio and Austin version of this practice?

I'm not saying it does or doesnt happen. Im merely asking if they do it in other metropolitan areas. 

It's because it is a stupid excuse.  El Paso has 14 high schools including several 6A schools.. nobody gripes that they could "draw talent" from an area of tens of thousands of kids into one smaller high school.  It only matters when individual people complain.. Let's talk about Houston.  "It's not fair" because there happens to be a powerhouse basketball team in Houston ISD that's 4A?  What about the SAME school or many others who are absolute trash in football, baseball, or whatever else?

This is a stupid topic.  You can't start picking and choosing who should be affected.  UIL places schools into classifications based on the number of kids enrolled in that school.  That's the fairest way.

[BADSANTA]

5 hours ago, oldschool2 said:

It's because it is a stupid excuse.  El Paso has 14 high schools including several 6A schools.. nobody gripes that they could "draw talent" from an area of tens of thousands of kids into one smaller high school.  It only matters when individual people complain.. Let's talk about Houston.  "It's not fair" because there happens to be a powerhouse basketball team in Houston ISD that's 4A?  What about the SAME school or many others who are absolute trash in football, baseball, or whatever else?

This is a stupid topic.  You can't start picking and choosing who should be affected.  UIL places schools into classifications based on the number of kids enrolled in that school.  That's the fairest way.

Not really stupid but fair. Eventually Yates will be 3A lmao. 

[ballup]

Coach Wise spends a lot of time in the gym in the summer. Do I know the man personally NO. I know every tournament that I go to he is there.   He knows about most of these kids before they even get to high school. They hold a lot of tournaments at Yates. Kids trend to gravitate to a coach. When kids are around a coach all time they want to play with him. It don’t hurt he has a winning program. 

[hjhawks]

what is missing in all of this conversation defending yates, is the recruiting part.  Im sure the 4 6'9 kids were not on yates JV last season.. and im sure they didnt transfer for the stellar communications program there.

Transferring for athletic reasons, or being recruited there are against uil rules.....   Imagine combining the best that HJ, Silsbee, EC and Kountze has to offer and then go play a 4a schedule......That population size is still 1/1000 the size of the city of houston.

 

[Kountzer]

On 2/24/2020 at 12:52 AM, Kountzer said:

Yates is in a perfect location to recruit.  They lose a lot of talent to private schools, but still they are in a good spot.  Lots of AAU activity in that area.  They got UH and TSU really close.  Rice is down the street.  So is St Thomas.  

Yates had some so so years before hiring coach Wise.   Wise is the man for the plan.  He knows how to go out and pull players.  Maybe there is a star player from Arkansas.  Comes to town for AAU.  Sells his parents on being near good colleges.  Sells the kid on playing for a recognized powerhouse in basketball.  Bam, he has a recruit.   Same for African players from the continent.  Many of them value education as much as they like basketball.  Yates being near those colleges doesn't hurt.

Meanwhile HISD is fighting for its life.  If Yates goes down maybe the whole district caves in. So the district ADs favor Yates in basketball.  Booker T Wash. HS has. a nice engineering program.  I've spoken to the coach there a few times.  Nice guy.  But to be able to parlay the engineering magnet school deal into recruiting with Yates is hard to do.  I am not sure what is holding back Bellaire HS and Lamar HS.  All the elites in basketball go to nearby St Johns or Episcopal.  Those schools have good coaches in basketball, I guess, but none of them are on the level of coach Wise.  

 

For those that don't know,  I grew up in Silsbee. I am a SHS alum, but I live in Houston. I am a Silsbee basketball fan to the bone  as they used to say.  It so happens that I see & hear what I see & hear.

[oldschool2]

12 hours ago, hjhawks said:

what is missing in all of this conversation defending yates, is the recruiting part.  Im sure the 4 6'9 kids were not on yates JV last season.. and im sure they didnt transfer for the stellar communications program there.

Transferring for athletic reasons, or being recruited there are against uil rules.....   Imagine combining the best that HJ, Silsbee, EC and Kountze has to offer and then go play a 4a schedule......That population size is still 1/1000 the size of the city of houston.

 

There is no question that it is not a perfect system.  But.. are you suggesting that Yates play 6A in basketball because they happen to be a consistently good "smaller" school in basketball?  Never mind the fact that they're awful in football.. and volleyball.. and baseball/softball (team sports where enrollment has much more of an impact).  Even in 4A.

So what are you getting at?  Every school in the state should abide by the UIL guidelines EXCEPT Houston Yates because they happen to be a relatively smaller school in an enormous city and there are speculations of recruiting going on from the other Houston area school districts?  A lot of the Houston area schools are trash in basketball.  Same with Dallas..and the other Big cities in the state.

I'm not defending Yates.. I'm defending the guideline that every public school is required to adhere to.  Should UIL just require every single transfer to sit one year, regardless of reason?

[5GallonBucket]

On 2/24/2020 at 12:49 PM, oldschool2 said:

It's because it is a stupid excuse.  El Paso has 14 high schools including several 6A schools.. nobody gripes that they could "draw talent" from an area of tens of thousands of kids into one smaller high school.  It only matters when individual people complain.. Let's talk about Houston.  "It's not fair" because there happens to be a powerhouse basketball team in Houston ISD that's 4A?  What about the SAME school or many others who are absolute trash in football, baseball, or whatever else?

This is a stupid topic.  You can't start picking and choosing who should be affected.  UIL places schools into classifications based on the number of kids enrolled in that school.  That's the fairest way.

I agree with you.
are the numbers accurate though. We all know shady business (large or small scale) takes place whether it’s bmt, ec, Hf, hj, Houston area dfw  area 

[oldschool2]

5 minutes ago, 5GallonBucket said:

I agree with you.
are the numbers accurate though. We all know shady business (large or small scale) takes place whether it’s bmt, ec, Hf, hj, Houston area dfw  area 

Easily checked.. schools receive funding based on enrollment.  Those numbers aren't usually messed with because that's a good way for a school to either lose funding or get shut down.. or whatever happens when/if a school falsifies the number that affects the amount of money they get.

Is that the issue here?  Or is the issue that Yates is getting a disproportionate amount of talent for a school with the number of students they have?  Which again.. nothing can be done about if they are following the rules.  I as a parent completely understand.  Every good parent in the universe makes decisions they feel are best for their kids. If I have a son that is 6'9 and a potential basketball phenom and I get a job in Houston.. we're probably getting an apartment in Yates' district.  Sue me.  Just like if I have a football star and a job offer in Fort Worth.. probably gonna house shop in Aledo.  Or an ag department.. or academically.. or whatever reason I felt best.  The days of K-12 schooling probably don't exist anymore. 

[Lazeek]

Quote

  Every good parent in the universe makes decisions they feel are best for their kids. If I have a son that is 6'9 and a potential basketball phenom and I get a job in Houston.. we're probably getting an apartment in Yates' district.  Sue me.  Just like if I have a football star and a job offer in Fort Worth.. probably gonna house shop in Aledo.  Or an ag department.. or academically.. or whatever reason I felt best.  The days of K-12 schooling probably don't exist anymore. 

Parents absolutely have a right to do what is best for their kid within the rules.  However, if you truly believe that three parents of three 6'8" kids all happened to get a job in Houston and all decided to live in Yates' attendance zone then you are living in a dream world.  Last year Yates had one 6'8" player (that became eligible mid way through the season) and he wasn't that good and did not play much.  This year they have four 6'8" kids (three of which are seniors).  The system is broken.  The problem is in multiple areas.  Did you know that two years ago Yates' enrollment was 1100?  Now it is around 850.  So, in a school that is in that drastic of a decline in enrollment, they still happen to have that many 6'8" kids there within the UIL rules?  Yates has open enrollment and is a magnet campus, which pretty much makes it accessible to anyone and at the same time Yates has the right to deny student entry because of those same factors if a student does not reside in their zone.  Therefore, they are able to manipulate their enrollment.  In turn, the playing field is not leveled.  How on earth in DISD and HISD does it make sense to have schools that vary in size from 3A all the way to 6A?  Yes...DISD has a 3A school...Madison.  Madison, by the way, has won basketball state championships in 3A, 4A, and 5A (before they renamed the classifications).  The open enrollment and magnet status combined allow schools within large cities a decided and unfair advantage.  The easy solution is to require that multiple high school districts that participate in open enrollment AND magnet programs cannot have schools participating in more than two classifications.  Therefore, they can compete (based on enrollment) in 4A and 5A or 5A and 6A but they cannot have schools in 4A, 5A, and 6A.  This should apply to all multiple high school districts because the open enrollment and magnet programs along with the sheer population of their city give them a decided advantage over districts that have only one high school.

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

1 hour ago, oldschool2 said:

Easily checked.. schools receive funding based on enrollment.  Those numbers aren't usually messed with because that's a good way for a school to either lose funding or get shut down.. or whatever happens when/if a school falsifies the number that affects the amount of money they get.

Is that the issue here?  Or is the issue that Yates is getting a disproportionate amount of talent for a school with the number of students they have?  Which again.. nothing can be done about if they are following the rules.  I as a parent completely understand.  Every good parent in the universe makes decisions they feel are best for their kids. If I have a son that is 6'9 and a potential basketball phenom and I get a job in Houston.. we're probably getting an apartment in Yates' district.  Sue me.  Just like if I have a football star and a job offer in Fort Worth.. probably gonna house shop in Aledo.  Or an ag department.. or academically.. or whatever reason I felt best.  The days of K-12 schooling probably don't exist anymore. 

In bold: i literally just had to explain that to someone out here in PA earlier this afternoon. 

[oldschool2]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Buddy Garrity said:

In bold: i literally just had to explain that to someone out here in PA earlier this afternoon. 

To be honest.. I think the biggest mistake UIL makes in regards to classification/cutoff/enrollment is to actually tell the schools when the count will be and then ask for their enrollment THAT DAY.  Just randomly pull a schools enrollment on a random day of the redistrict year or take a weekly/monthly average or something.  It seems like they're asking for schools to skim numbers.

[oldschool2]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Buddy Garrity said:

In bold: i literally just had to explain that to someone out here in PA earlier this afternoon. 

And another thing.. it's absolute insanity to me that THIS year's seniors affect NEXT year's district alignment.  I know that bigger schools have several different JH feeder schools but schools where everyone JH kid goes into the same high school should count 8-11.  Just my opinion. 

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

1 minute ago, oldschool2 said:

And another thing.. it's absolute insanity to me that THIS year's seniors affect NEXT year's district alignment.  I know that bigger schools have several different JH feeder schools but schools where everyone JH kid goes into the same high school should count 8-11.  Just my opinion. 

Oh i agree 100%, me and @BMTSoulja1 have had plenty of convos about that particular issue. 

[oldschool2]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Buddy Garrity said:

Oh i agree 100%, me and @BMTSoulja1 have had plenty of convos about that particular issue. 

Really big senior classes and small incoming freshman classes is not uncommon (or vice versa).  Just doesn't make sense to me.