Houston and Dallas Schools in 4A and 3A

[hjhawks]

On 2/25/2020 at 11:00 AM, oldschool2 said:

There is no question that it is not a perfect system.  But.. are you suggesting that Yates play 6A in basketball because they happen to be a consistently good "smaller" school in basketball?  Never mind the fact that they're awful in football.. and volleyball.. and baseball/softball (team sports where enrollment has much more of an impact).  Even in 4A.

So what are you getting at?  Every school in the state should abide by the UIL guidelines EXCEPT Houston Yates because they happen to be a relatively smaller school in an enormous city and there are speculations of recruiting going on from the other Houston area school districts?  A lot of the Houston area schools are trash in basketball.  Same with Dallas..and the other Big cities in the state.

I'm not defending Yates.. I'm defending the guideline that every public school is required to adhere to.  Should UIL just require every single transfer to sit one year, regardless of reason?

It is about how they got there.  The District commitee that decides these things is all the same school district.  Many feel that the district allows this to happen for obvious reasons...

My suggested fix is to have the district committee that decides and looks into these allegations be the two districts that neighbor each other and play in the bidistrict round...

Either that, or all the people swearing this is not on the up and up, hire a PI, find where they live and find what made them come there.  If a kid moves there to play, isnt that moving for athletic purposes? 

[oldschool2]

15 minutes ago, hjhawks said:

It is about how they got there.  The District commitee that decides these things is all the same school district.  Many feel that the district allows this to happen for obvious reasons...

My suggested fix is to have the district committee that decides and looks into these allegations be the two districts that neighbor each other and play in the bidistrict round...

Either that, or all the people swearing this is not on the up and up, hire a PI, find where they live and find what made them come there.  If a kid moves there to play, isnt that moving for athletic purposes? 

That is up to the family of the student, current head coach/AD, and previous head coach/AD to write in on the form..  It's outlined on the PAPF.  They are also required to put the current permanent address.  If a student has their PAPF checked that it's not a move for athletic purposes, they proved documentation proving that they now live in the district, and the parent/guardian gives a legitimate reason for the move... what exactly else can be done?  Other than a thorough investigation as you say.. but what if the investigation also proves that it's legitimate?  

This is why I've always said that it's almost impossible to govern.  Even with all of these suggestions being made it comes down to this.. nobody can control where or why a parent lives where they live.  "He didn't move for athletic purposes, I got a new job. There was a divorce. Evicted. We rely on school transportation. WHATEVER."  A parent can up and move for whatever reason they want or need to and don't forget.. the older a kid gets and the closer to college they get the more thought goes into these reasons.  Even in small towns there are very few k-12 kids anymore in a school system.  I mean.. there aren't.. but there is ALWAYS a kid that didn't start with whatever school they graduated from. 

[oldschool2]

26 minutes ago, hjhawks said:

It is about how they got there.  The District commitee that decides these things is all the same school district.  Many feel that the district allows this to happen for obvious reasons...

My suggested fix is to have the district committee that decides and looks into these allegations be the two districts that neighbor each other and play in the bidistrict round...

Either that, or all the people swearing this is not on the up and up, hire a PI, find where they live and find what made them come there.  If a kid moves there to play, isnt that moving for athletic purposes? 

You tell me what looks more suspicious on paper.

Team A- 18/19 they go 23-4 (maxpreps)  19/20 (3 move ins) right now they're 23-3... 
Team B- 18/19 they go 3-22 (maxpreps)  19/20 (3 move ins) this year 25-12

I mean.. they're probably all legit on paper.  Which is all that matters. 

[stevenash]

I don't advise that you rely on anything from maxpreps.  When HJ defeated Silsbee in their second meeting this season, Maxpreps reported at 17 point win by Silsbee in that game.

[stevenash]

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[JayBilas]

Are you guys implying that HJ and Silsbee NEVER gets transfers into their respective programs? Just a question.

[Tigers94]

Almost every team gets a transfer here and there. Sometimes kids really do move because of family and whatnot.

When certain schools are bringing in nearly half a dozen new kids is when there is a problem. Doubly so if it's the same thing year after year.

Trying to pretend a transfer and a half a dozen are the exact same thing is being just a bit ridiculous.

There's a simple (albeit not perfect) solution to the problem. You move to a new school and play sports, you sit for the entire year before you're eligible to play. No joining the team halfway through the season.

Shouldn't be a big deal since all these kids "are really moving because of educational reasons" first and foremost.

 

[stevenash]

28 minutes ago, Tigers94 said:

Almost every team gets a transfer here and there. Sometimes kids really do move because of family and whatnot.

When certain schools are bringing in nearly half a dozen new kids is when there is a problem. Doubly so if it's the same thing year after year.

Trying to pretend a transfer and a half a dozen are the exact same thing is being just a bit ridiculous.

There's a simple (albeit not perfect) solution to the problem. You move to a new school and play sports, you sit for the entire year before you're eligible to play. No joining the team halfway through the season.

Shouldn't be a big deal since all these kids "are really moving because of educational reasons" first and foremost.

 

+1000000

[oldschool2]

2 hours ago, Tigers94 said:

Almost every team gets a transfer here and there. Sometimes kids really do move because of family and whatnot.

When certain schools are bringing in nearly half a dozen new kids is when there is a problem. Doubly so if it's the same thing year after year.

Trying to pretend a transfer and a half a dozen are the exact same thing is being just a bit ridiculous.

There's a simple (albeit not perfect) solution to the problem. You move to a new school and play sports, you sit for the entire year before you're eligible to play. No joining the team halfway through the season.

Shouldn't be a big deal since all these kids "are really moving because of educational reasons" first and foremost.

 

I agree 100 percent.  If a kid changes school in high school, sit a year.  Keep in mind, though, that I believe you're underplaying the number of times it actually happens for what is being considered legal reasons.  Many, many kids will be affected.  Not that it'll hurt anything, but it's gonna cost a lot of varsity participation. 

[stevenash]

3 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

I agree 100 percent.  If a kid changes school in high school, sit a year.  Keep in mind, though, that I believe you're underplaying the number of times it actually happens for what is being considered legal reasons.  Many, many kids will be affected.  Not that it'll hurt anything, but it's gonna cost a lot of varsity participation. 

It will also reduce the number of transfers substantially

[oldschool2]

4 minutes ago, stevenash said:

It will also reduce the number of transfers substantially

I have no doubt.  Like I said.. I'm all for it.

[hjhawks]

In the case of yates,

you had a few kids who were appointed "guardianship" to a booster who lives in the yates zone.  How does a school check this, when the District committee is entirely HISD?  How does a school check when the guardianship was legalized?  By rule, It has to be one year out...  I would assume it was done last spring or summer.  Other schools should have access to papfs and documents to check....  not rely on the home school checking it out..

For most, its not about the transfers... that happens....  Its how they got them and how it was done that bugs folks. 

There was an 8th grade tournament in Houston the past weekend or so....  I am sure Coach Wise was there, yet yates had no team in the tournament.....  hmmm...

 

 

 

FROM UIL ELGIBILITY GUIDELINES...

(b) GUARDIAN OF PERSON. If a student’s parents are alive but a guardian of his or her person was appointed by appropriate authority and recorded in the county clerk’s office more than one year ago, the residence of the student is presumed to be that of the guardian if the student has continuously resided with the guardian for a calendar year or more. If no legal guardianship has been taken out,  three years’ residence with and support of a contestant establishes guardianship within the meaning of this rule. (c) GUARDIAN. If a student’s parents are dead and a guardian of his

[oldschool2]

22 minutes ago, hjhawks said:

In the case of yates,

you had a few kids who were appointed "guardianship" to a booster who lives in the yates zone.  How does a school check this, when the District committee is entirely HISD?  How does a school check when the guardianship was legalized?  By rule, It has to be one year out...  I would assume it was done last spring or summer.  Other schools should have access to papfs and documents to check....  not rely on the home school checking it out..

For most, its not about the transfers... that happens....  Its how they got them and how it was done that bugs folks. 

There was an 8th grade tournament in Houston the past weekend or so....  I am sure Coach Wise was there, yet yates had no team in the tournament.....  hmmm...

 

 

 

FROM UIL ELGIBILITY GUIDELINES...

(b) GUARDIAN OF PERSON. If a student’s parents are alive but a guardian of his or her person was appointed by appropriate authority and recorded in the county clerk’s office more than one year ago, the residence of the student is presumed to be that of the guardian if the student has continuously resided with the guardian for a calendar year or more. If no legal guardianship has been taken out,  three years’ residence with and support of a contestant establishes guardianship within the meaning of this rule. (c) GUARDIAN. If a student’s parents are dead and a guardian of his

I don't think it would be the case if the student already lived in the school's attendance zone. 

[hjhawks]

It is the case.  

[stevenash]

36 minutes ago, Mohead2000 said:

Yes, Yates feeder school was in the middle school tournament. It was Cullen Middle School. There were several  teams from HISD. Meyerland, MC William's, McReynolds, and Attucks. Some of these schools were not the best teams in HISD. Since this was not a UIL sanctioned event and the real coaches could not coach, some schools opted not to get in it for whatever reason. Some people that post on this site have no idea about HISD. But what you did do is let the cat out of the bag about Silsbee 8th graders and now the whole city and maybe the whole state is well aware how good they are and someone just might put a team together legally to contend with them. 

Legally?  Maybe   Ethically- not a chance in he%#  OJ was found innocent too.

[stevenash]

2 minutes ago, Mohead2000 said:

Now we know what's legal,ethical, and moral are usually not one in the same. It should be, but it's not. And this goes way beyond high school sports.

Yes it does go way beyond high school sports.  However, this board is strictly about high school sports, hence the discussion.  Rest very assured that most of  those who belittle others regarding their outcry about the injustice taking place in high school basketball  believe very strongly in voicing and expressing their unhappiness with other circumstances  in various facets of life.

[JayBilas]

45 minutes ago, stevenash said:

Yes it does go way beyond high school sports.  However, this board is strictly about high school sports, hence the discussion.  Rest very assured that most of  those who belittle others regarding their outcry about the injustice taking place in high school basketball  believe very strongly in voicing and expressing their unhappiness with other circumstances  in various facets of life.

Injustice? We all know about the advantages of being in a large metropolitan city and playing in 4A or below in UIL classification. However, according to the rule MAKERS, they say what Yates is doing is considered ok. Would it have been an "injustice" if Hardin Jefferson would have advanced to the state tournament with kids from Beaumont? Just playing devils advocate here for a second.

[stevenash]

with 4 kids who transferred in in the same season?  Yes  They have managed to win it thrice without transfers.   Now that I have answered your question, is Yates in line not only with the rules but the intent of the rules as well?   Is OJ innocent?

[JayBilas]

21 hours ago, stevenash said:

with 4 kids who transferred in in the same season?  Yes  They have managed to win it thrice without transfers.   Now that I have answered your question, is Yates in line not only with the rules but the intent of the rules as well?   Is OJ innocent?

Is Harvey Weinstein just partially guilty? That's a ridiculous answer, but expected. HJ won state and had success with BEAUMONT kids. Their hands are NOT CLEAN and neither is Silsbee. That's the problem that I have with all of the groaning and complaining. You conveniently want to slide OJ Simpson into this? Are you kidding me? YOUR HANDS ARE NOT CLEAN IN SOUR LAKE!

[stevenash]

Whats wrong with the OJ Simpson case being mentioned?  The system found him not guilty.  Do you believe he was not guilty?

[JayBilas]

3 minutes ago, stevenash said:

Whats wrong with the OJ Simpson case being mentioned?  The system found him not guilty.  Do you believe he was not guilty?

That's irrelevant and a cheap way to try to distract from the topic at hand. The UIL says those kids at Yates are eligible just as they said the kids HJ had from Beaumont through the years were.  NOW that HJ has been beaten by 50 in a playoff game is when it becomes such a horrible "injustice". Please sir spare me, and give us all a break! The system no longer works for YOU guys, so NOW its flawed? Not hardly, sir.

[stevenash]

5 minutes ago, JayBilas said:

That's irrelevant and a cheap way to try to distract from the topic at hand. The UIL says those kids at Yates are eligible just as they said the kids HJ had from Beaumont through the years were.  NOW that HJ has been beaten by 50 in a playoff game is when it becomes such a horrible "injustice". Please sir spare me, and give us all a break! The system no longer works for YOU guys, so NOW its flawed? Not hardly, sir.

Nothing cheap at all about it.  The existing system says the Yates players are eligible and OJ was innocent.  I and several others have been on this board discussing the Yates situation for about 8 years now so there is very clearly no relation to the Yate victory over HJ.  Once again, you fully support the system that declares them eligible and   believe nobody should complain about it.  I am more than confident there are plenty of other "systems" which you oppose and frequently make  your opinion known.

[JayBilas]

Just now, stevenash said:

Nothing cheap at all about it.  The existing system says the Yates players are eligible and OJ was innocent.  I and several others have been on this board discussing the Yates situation for about 8 years now so there is very clearly no relation to the Yate victory over HJ.  Once again, you fully support the system that declares them eligible and   believe nobody should oppose it.  I am more than confident there are plenty of other "systems" which you oppose and frequently make  your opinion known.

Strangely enough I DO NOT support the system as it currently is. It is MY belief that larger city schools should NOT be able to play in 4A or lower classifications due to the talent pool alone.  HOWEVER, do not act as if YOUR beloved school has not benefitted from having kids that resided outside of the boundaries of Sour Lake and/or the close surrounding communities,  Silsbee either.

[stevenash]

Vast, very vast majority of HJ and Silsbee players over the years have been players who were in their respective systems for at least their freshmen, sophomore, junior, and senior years.   I am pretty confident that you cannot claim the same for your "beloved" school.  If you are honest, we both KNOW who  has been the greater beneficiary of transfer students.  It' not even close.

[Mballler#1]

On 3/4/2020 at 12:10 PM, JayBilas said:

Strangely enough I DO NOT support the system as it currently is. It is MY belief that larger city schools should NOT be able to play in 4A or lower classifications due to the talent pool alone.  HOWEVER, do not act as if YOUR beloved school has not benefitted from having kids that resided outside of the boundaries of Sour Lake and/or the close surrounding communities,  Silsbee either.

True but (most of the time )the kids that transfer to silsbee is a result of the parents that graduated from silsbee move their kids to other schools and them bring them back I keep referring to Mr Ashton hall who had a silsbee address but went to kountze he wanted to come to silsbee to play and the district and uil would not allow it now Mr Jordan Adams played in silsbee as an 8th grader and finished out at silsbee if the tigers or HJ or any team in our district transferred 3-4 gentlemen at 6’8-6’9 for sports and academics in their senior season or in 1yrs time it would be serious punishments handed out by the uil and the district would probably vote against it if Yates district only has 1 person overseeing the whole district can other districts do the same.