Houston and Dallas Schools in 4A and 3A

[AggiesAreWe]

54 minutes ago, Lazeek said:

Parents absolutely have a right to do what is best for their kid within the rules.  However, if you truly believe that three parents of three 6'8" kids all happened to get a job in Houston and all decided to live in Yates' attendance zone then you are living in a dream world.  Last year Yates had one 6'8" player (that became eligible mid way through the season) and he wasn't that good and did not play much.  This year they have four 6'8" kids (three of which are seniors).  The system is broken.  The problem is in multiple areas.  Did you know that two years ago Yates' enrollment was 1100?  Now it is around 850.  So, in a school that is in that drastic of a decline in enrollment, they still happen to have that many 6'8" kids there within the UIL rules?  Yates has open enrollment and is a magnet campus, which pretty much makes it accessible to anyone and at the same time Yates has the right to deny student entry because of those same factors if a student does not reside in their zone.  Therefore, they are able to manipulate their enrollment.  In turn, the playing field is not leveled.  How on earth in DISD and HISD does it make sense to have schools that vary in size from 3A all the way to 6A?  Yes...DISD has a 3A school...Madison.  Madison, by the way, has won basketball state championships in 3A, 4A, and 5A (before they renamed the classifications).  The open enrollment and magnet status combined allow schools within large cities a decided and unfair advantage.  The easy solution is to require that multiple high school districts that participate in open enrollment AND magnet programs cannot have schools participating in more than two classifications.  Therefore, they can compete (based on enrollment) in 4A and 5A or 5A and 6A but they cannot have schools in 4A, 5A, and 6A.  This should apply to all multiple high school districts because the open enrollment and magnet programs along with the sheer population of their city give them a decided advantage over districts that have only one high school.

Uh, what he said.

[BMTSoulja1]

Quick question.  Would this even be a topic of Yates were in a different classification or if Yates has a horrible season, like a 4th place finish?

[AggiesAreWe]

31 minutes ago, BMTSoulja1 said:

Quick question.  Would this even be a topic of Yates were in a different classification or if Yates has a horrible season, like a 4th place finish?

Only if they were still getting those "students".

I think the point is that if a school can control its enrollment like Yates can (open enrollment but magnet too) then they should be required to play at least 1 classification up.

[BMTSoulja1]

28 minutes ago, AggiesAreWe said:

Only if they were still getting those "students".

I think the point is that if a school can control its enrollment like Yates can (open enrollment but magnet too) then they should be required to play at least 1 classification up.

Why wasn't this an outrage when the big three initially got on campus in fall of 2015 but now, after the lopsided loss in the regionals, it's  a big deal?

[BMTSoulja1]

Lace em up and see what it dew.  They took losses to smoke town when the big 3 (or 4) was in Silsbee...

[BMTSoulja1]

Anyway, what I HOPE happens is that Yates stumbles and loses and/or Silsbee or H-J knocks their block off...

[ST413]

10 minutes ago, BMTSoulja1 said:

Why wasn't this an outrage when the big three initially got on campus in fall of 2015 but now, after the lopsided loss in the regionals, it's  a big deal?

It was then and still is.  

[BMTSoulja1]

12 minutes ago, ST413 said:

It was then and still is.  

I don't recall much talk about this when Adams,  McCain, and Tyler arrived  or a year later when Bush came.  I think from then up until last year, Silsbee was pretty much polishing off Yates when the played...

[ST413]

1 hour ago, BMTSoulja1 said:

I don't recall much talk about this when Adams,  McCain, and Tyler arrived  or a year later when Bush came.  I think from then up until last year, Silsbee was pretty much polishing off Yates when the played...

Had a problem with it before during and now after their years.  They were the exception.  Those teams come around rarely in small towns not yearly like in these other cases.

[ST413]

I will even say that group last year was still  better at the starting 5 than Yates and maybe even faith family.  But weren’t near as deep another benefit yearly for those big city magnets.

[GuWop1122]

Open enrollment and magnet sounds like the playbook then to me. I dont think madison is a magnet school.

To automatically make schools with those characteristics play up... would mean they MUST be cheating. I dont know man. they cant be the only school with those two things. Somebody needs to aggregate a list and put their basketball and football records and come back to the group. I dont think it would be anything to note other than the one school thats literally on two college campuses. 

 

Speaking as a parent that hopes his kid ends up 6'8 (I'm 6'6 and his mom is 5'11 so it can happen not just a blind hope), I would do the same thing if i could. My first thing athletically would be to get to a school that has at least two kids the same height or taller than mine. I would NOT want my kid to have a "Katt orangefield" experience where no matter how skilled (dribbling shooting) he is he has to play the 5 on both sides of the ball. I would also have to watch my kid get Quintuple Teamed everytime he touched the ball with possibly nobody of anywhere close to equal ability to pass to. Im not gonna pay 10 dollars for 25 games for 2/3 years to see that. thats not basketball to me. 

[oldschool2]

16 hours ago, AggiesAreWe said:

Only if they were still getting those "students".

I think the point is that if a school can control its enrollment like Yates can (open enrollment but magnet too) then they should be required to play at least 1 classification up.

In every sport?  Because... Yates is already awful in the classification they're in when talking about their other sports.  

[AggiesAreWe]

Just now, oldschool2 said:

In every sport?  Because... Yates is already awful in the classification they're in when talking about their other sports.  

Yates chooses to put all their eggs in one basket. So yes, all sports.

[oldschool2]

1 minute ago, AggiesAreWe said:

Yates chooses to put all their eggs in one basket. So yes, all sports.

Because that's fair.  So let's tell the parents of the football players "I know you're getting your heads beat in (in 4A).. but we're gonna go ahead and make you play 5A, because basketball."  I'm sorry but that's crazy to me.  Magnet school or not, UIL stipulates that the kid still has to live in their specific zone/district or sit out a year upon transfer.  There is absolutely nothing stopping any other Houston ISD school from offering a specialized course/curricula (magnet school).

But it wouldn't matter.. Even if they played up a classification and won state championships the same complaint would happen.  Even if UIL forced all transfers to sit one calendar year for transferring (no matter the reason), the same complaint would happen.  

There has to be another option/idea.  You are at least the first person to offer a solution (forced to play up).  Which I don't agree with..I don't believe making the other sports suffer or other magnet schools suffer because of one school is fair.. but thanks for not just griping without a proposed solution. 

[ST413]

9 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

Because that's fair.  So let's tell the parents of the football players "I know you're getting your heads beat in (in 4A).. but we're gonna go ahead and make you play 5A, because basketball."  I'm sorry but that's crazy to me.  Magnet school or not, UIL stipulates that the kid still has to live in their specific zone/district or sit out a year upon transfer.  There is absolutely nothing stopping any other Houston ISD school from offering a specialized course/curricula (magnet school).

But it wouldn't matter.. Even if they played up a classification and won state championships the same complaint would happen.  Even if UIL forced all transfers to sit one calendar year for transferring (no matter the reason), the same complaint would happen.  

There has to be another option/idea.  You are at least the first person to offer a solution (forced to play up).  Which I don't agree with..I don't believe making the other sports suffer or other magnet schools suffer because of one school is fair.. but thanks for not just griping without a proposed solution. 

It’s obvious how much football matters to many of those schools.  All you have to do is look in the stands.

[oldschool2]

2 minutes ago, ST413 said:

It’s obvious how much football matters to many of those schools.  All you have to do is look in the stands.

That hardly matters.  If football mattered to your son.. would you be ok with him playing a 5A schedule due to "basketball unfairness" even though he's on the brink of getting hurt every game in a 4A district because his team is bad?  Maybe you don't want to take him to a different school because the education being offered is actually the reason he goes to Yates, but he happens to enjoy football more than anything else. 

[BADSANTA]

16 hours ago, BMTSoulja1 said:

I don't recall much talk about this when Adams,  McCain, and Tyler arrived  or a year later when Bush came.  I think from then up until last year, Silsbee was pretty much polishing off Yates when the played...

Go back 6 years when Yates was 3A. Yates went to then the new 5A for 2 years and should have never dropped down. What Silsbee did was remarkable as Yates was recruiting then. Faith Family doesnt need to be 4A. Dallas Carter 4A?? Dallas Lincoln?? All a joke. 

[ST413]

6 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

That hardly matters.  If football mattered to your son.. would you be ok with him playing a 5A schedule due to "basketball unfairness" even though he's on the brink of getting hurt every game in a 4A district because his team is bad?  Maybe you don't want to take him to a different school because the education being offered is actually the reason he goes to Yates, but he happens to enjoy football more than anything else. 

Then that parent should take issues with the school district and find out why they arent recruiting as hard for football as they Are for basketball.  Its obvious it doesnt matter to the district.  If the school district is going to allow such activities be it legal not or what then yes All sports or activites should have to play up in a higher classification.  

[oldschool2]

15 minutes ago, ST413 said:

Then that parent should take issues with the school district and find out why they arent recruiting as hard for football as they Are for basketball.  Its obvious it doesnt matter to the district.  If the school district is going to allow such activities be it legal not or what then yes All sports or activites should have to play up in a higher classification.  

We'll have to agree to disagree.  I'm not saying they're recruiting or they aren't.. highly plausible.  But, it's happening everywhere and any city with an apartment complex is a hotbed for "legal recruiting".  And nothing can be done about it.  I've suggested making all transfers sit a calendar year.  That would certainly slow the problem but then you run into other issues.  I don't know the answer.  I'm not defending Yates.  I'm defending UIL.  While that doesn't happen often, I do believe that schools with similar enrollments should play each other with no stipulations.  There should be no "*Unless you're a magnet school, *Unless your really good, *Unless people think you're recruiting.  If UIL can prove they're recruiting for athletic purposes, then by all means punish them to the full extent.  Otherwise, that are no better options than currently.  I would even argue that UIL waters it down too much already.   

[ST413]

53 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

We'll have to agree to disagree.  I'm not saying they're recruiting or they aren't.. highly plausible.  But, it's happening everywhere and any city with an apartment complex is a hotbed for "legal recruiting".  And nothing can be done about it.  I've suggested making all transfers sit a calendar year.  That would certainly slow the problem but then you run into other issues.  I don't know the answer.  I'm not defending Yates.  I'm defending UIL.  While that doesn't happen often, I do believe that schools with similar enrollments should play each other with no stipulations.  There should be no "*Unless you're a magnet school, *Unless your really good, *Unless people think you're recruiting.  If UIL can prove they're recruiting for athletic purposes, then by all means punish them to the full extent.  Otherwise, that are no better options than currently.  I would even argue that UIL waters it down too much already.   

I understand where you are coming from and there will always be those with issues.    However being really good really has no part of it other than drawing attention.  For example since football has been a part of this discussion,  I haven’t heard or seen much of any discussion of the Carthage football program as far as this issue goes.  What the isssue is is the number of transfers these big city schools get pretty much yearly that just happen to be or fit the description of big time players.  You say any city with an apartment complex is a hotbed but that isn’t the case.  Small towns have apartment complexes but when you are farther away from a job or your “true” home you don’t see the parents willing to drive the distance to transfer their kid to said small town school.  In a big city you can just hop on a city bus and go across town to a different school. 

[oldschool2]

7 minutes ago, ST413 said:

I understand where you are coming from and there will always be those with issues.    However being really good really has no part of it other than drawing attention.  For example since football has been a part of this discussion,  I haven’t heard or seen much of any discussion of the Carthage football program as far as this issue goes.  What the isssue is is the number of transfers these big city schools get pretty much yearly that just happen to be or fit the description of big time players.  You say any city with an apartment complex is a hotbed but that isn’t the case.  Small towns have apartment complexes but when you are farther away from a job or your “true” home you don’t see the parents willing to drive the distance to transfer their kid to said small town school.  In a big city you can just hop on a city bus and go across town to a different school. 

You still have to live in the school's district.  What I was referring to in regards to big cities is that often times a kid/parent will be displeased with a situation and then change their address to an apartment complex in a different school district.  It happens more than people think.  A lot of big schools (inner city/city) have more than one kid good enough to play (insert here) but as soon as the starter is announced... gone.

It's happening in small schools too.  They just have to be more creative because of the usual unavailable housing.  But make no mistake.. it's happening. 

[AggiesAreWe]

2 hours ago, oldschool2 said:

Because that's fair.  So let's tell the parents of the football players "I know you're getting your heads beat in (in 4A).. but we're gonna go ahead and make you play 5A, because basketball."  I'm sorry but that's crazy to me.  Magnet school or not, UIL stipulates that the kid still has to live in their specific zone/district or sit out a year upon transfer.  There is absolutely nothing stopping any other Houston ISD school from offering a specialized course/curricula (magnet school).

But it wouldn't matter.. Even if they played up a classification and won state championships the same complaint would happen.  Even if UIL forced all transfers to sit one calendar year for transferring (no matter the reason), the same complaint would happen.  

There has to be another option/idea.  You are at least the first person to offer a solution (forced to play up).  Which I don't agree with..I don't believe making the other sports suffer or other magnet schools suffer because of one school is fair.. but thanks for not just griping without a proposed solution. 

Uh, FYI, Houston ISD are making all their 4A schools opt up to play Div. I even though the majority of the schools are Div. II football schools. Where is the fairness in that?

Again, a school that plays UIL sports should not be able to control their enrollment. Yates is capable of doing so therefore should have to play up. I feel the same way with the Charter schools as well.

Yates has the authority to turn away every '5"6 student but can allow all the '6"8 students they want to enroll.

[oldschool2]

10 minutes ago, AggiesAreWe said:

Uh, FYI, Houston ISD are making all their 4A schools opt up to play Div. I even though the majority of the schools are Div. II football schools. Where is the fairness in that?

Again, a school that plays UIL sports should not be able to control their enrollment. Yates is capable of doing so therefore should have to play up. I feel the same way with the Charter schools as well.

Yates has the authority to turn away every '5"6 student but can allow all the '6"8 students they want to enroll.

There is no fairness in that.  However, it's not quite the same.  By forcing Yates to play up in basketball classification (4A to 5A), I was under the impression you were implying their football team to do the same.  Since football has divisions are you saying that their other sports should have to play up in division (football) or classification?

Let's assume magnet schools such as Yates have to play up because of reasons you described.  Basketball, baseball, volleyball, track, and all individual sports go from 4A to 5A?.. and football goes up one division?  Or also to 5A?

[AggiesAreWe]

7 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

There is no fairness in that.  However, it's not quite the same.  By forcing Yates to play up in basketball classification (4A to 5A), I was under the impression you were implying their football team to do the same.  Since football has divisions are you saying that their other sports should have to play up in division (football) or classification?

Let's assume magnet schools such as Yates have to play up because of reasons you described.  Basketball, baseball, volleyball, track, and all individual sports go from 4A to 5A?.. and football goes up one division?  Or also to 5A?

It would have to be for all sports so in football they would play 5A DII.

Schools like Scarborough and Washington who have zero chance in 4A DII are being forced to play 4A DI by their own school district. So, not really much difference than what I am suggesting.

[oldschool2]

3 minutes ago, AggiesAreWe said:

It would have to be for all sports so in football they would play 5A DII.

Schools like Scarborough and Washington who have zero chance in 4A DII are being forced to play 4A DI by their own school district. So, not really much difference than what I am suggesting.

4A II - 515
5A II - 1230

There's a little bit of a difference.  Potentially anyway.