Ahmaud Arbery Shooting

[CardinalBacker]

56 minutes ago, SmashMouth said:

What’s so freaking funny is you’re trying to explain the inner workings of LE to a guy that teaches and has worked in LE for probably 2/3 of his life! I can’t quit laughing. Most of the posters on here know tvc184 for what he is. You started out your post “Sorry, my uninformed friend” - instead you should have said, “I’m sorry my uniformed friend...”.  Too freakin hilarious. He and everyone else is laughing in your face.

Lol... did you miss what just happened. When somebody (TVC) is losing a debate, they start spouting their credentials as if that will somehow make their wrong assertion somehow become right. Whether he wants to admit it or not, the police directing a citizen towards civilian watch group or a concerned former LEO private citizen neighbor is the epitome of community policing.  
That’s why he disengaged and started talking credentials. He knows he misspoke. 
Besides... everybody knows that on a rookie cop’s first day they tell him/her to “forget every thing that you learned in the academy.... those guys are dummies.”

And I had to fix it to read “uninformed” because it autocorrected to “uniformed.”🤣

But I’m nothing if not humble. I think it’s safe to say that I dropped a round there... but I’m still way up on the cards,  lol. 

[tvc184]

6 hours ago, CardinalBacker said:

Thanks for your explanation on your background. 

I’m going to go back and reread your posts... Quick question, though... Do you feel like your views are shared by most of your fellow LEOs, or are your views kinda unique in your field?

The ones that actually look at case, typically agree. Ones that just read headlines....

I have talked with officers (naturally) about high profile cases and has some disagree.... until you show them other evidence and then it is, “oh, that changes everything”. 

 If you question is, am I the guy that just disagrees with everything then the answer is no. I fall in the typical police paradigm. 

I comment on many forums and usually qualify my statement as.... if the situation is as presented in the media. IF this is true, this is the answer.  
 

For what it is worth, I get calls every day, including on my days off, to give opinions on a case, sometimes from ongoing crime scenes. 

[tvc184]

4 hours ago, CardinalBacker said:

Lol... did you miss what just happened. When somebody (TVC) is losing a debate, they start spouting their credentials as if that will somehow make their wrong assertion somehow become right. Whether he wants to admit it or not, the police directing a citizen towards civilian watch group or a concerned former LEO private citizen neighbor is the epitome of community policing.  
That’s why he disengaged and started talking credentials. He knows he misspoke. 
Besides... everybody knows that on a rookie cop’s first day they tell him/her to “forget every thing that you learned in the academy.... those guys are dummies.”

And I had to fix it to read “uninformed” because it autocorrected to “uniformed.”🤣

But I’m nothing if not humble. I think it’s safe to say that I dropped a round there... but I’m still way up on the cards,  lol. 

I hardly ever speak of experience. Anyone is allowed to have an opinion.  When someone tells me that I don’t understand community policing because of something read in the internet, sometimes it seems appropriate. 
 

I can’t be losing a debate because I am not in one. I am merely pointing out usual police policies and responses. A debate might be if those policies or practices are good. 

 I haven’t disengaged from anything. 

 Here is what matters in this case.... 

Did the two men arrested witness a felony? If so they can make a citizen arrest under GA law. I have read the GA law and I saw nothing that justifies a detention by a civilian in order to question a person that was in a suspicious circumstance, particularly with firearms.   The police can, civilians can’t  

Arbery’s past history has no bearing on the case. A video of him arguing with cops two years earlier doesn’t justify deadly force or a detention  Him in the area or in that house under construction previoy doesn’t matter. Having a cop text for the neighbors to call the retired cop doesn’t matter.  Again, did they witness s felony? If not, they can make no citizen arrest. The rest is just fluff to distract by one side or the other. 

 Does GA law allow for a civilian to draw a weapon on an apparently unarmed person to make an arrest, just in case? 

The local DAs that knew the suspect or his family, said they saw no case. The state police were called in and it took about 45 seconds to say, what the heck was the DA thinking. 

I think this will go to trial. I think the guys may get off because of the way the law reads. In Texas as an example of self defense, if self defense is brought up in a trial, the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that self defense was not lawful in that circumstance. In other words, the defendant doesn’t have to prove that he had the right of self defense, the DA has to prove that he didn’t. So a jury could feel 80% likely that murder was committed but that isn’t beyond a reasonable doubt. Texas law on a defense to prosecution says that if any reasonable count exists, a person must be acquitted.  Is GA the same? It is probably similar. 

[CardinalBacker]

32 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

I hardly ever speak of experience. Anyone is allowed to have an opinion.  When someone tells me that I don’t understand community policing because of something read in the internet, sometimes it seems appropriate. 
 

I can’t be losing a debate because I am not in one. I am merely pointing out usual police policies and responses. A debate might be if those policies or practices are good. 

 I haven’t disengaged from anything. 

 Here is what matters in this case.... 

Did the two men arrested witness a felony? If so they can make a citizen arrest under GA law. I have read the GA law and I saw nothing that justifies a detention by a civilian in order to question a person that was in a suspicious circumstance, particularly with firearms.   The police can, civilians can’t  

Arbery’s past history has no bearing on the case. A video of him arguing with cops two years earlier doesn’t justify deadly force or a detention  Him in the area or in that house under construction previoy doesn’t matter. Having a cop text for the neighbors to call the retired cop doesn’t matter.  Again, did they witness s felony? If not, they can make no citizen arrest. The rest is just fluff to distract by one side or the other. 

 Does GA law allow for a civilian to draw a weapon on an apparently unarmed person to make an arrest, just in case? 

The local DAs that knew the suspect or his family, said they saw no case. The state police were called in and it took about 45 seconds to say, what the heck was the DA thinking. 

I think this will go to trial. I think the guys may get off because of the way the law reads. In Texas as an example of self defense, if self defense is brought up in a trial, the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that self defense was not lawful in that circumstance. In other words, the defendant doesn’t have to prove that he had the right of self defense, the DA has to prove that he didn’t. So a jury could feel 80% likely that murder was committed but that isn’t beyond a reasonable doubt. Texas law on a defense to prosecution says that if any reasonable count exists, a person must be acquitted.  Is GA the same? It is probably similar. 

This...  I understand the same.  If the two men didn't see the "crime" personally, they have no right to attempt a citizen's arrest.  That's my understanding of GA law as well.

I think it should have gone before a grand jury promptly, and I'm not sure that it would have ever gone if not for the media spotlight.  That's a problem.

My feeling is that you could make a good case for some type of manslaughter-type charge (or whatever they call it out there) but I think the prosecution would have a hard time proving a capital crime (or a federal hate crime) based on the evidence that has come to light this far. 

No chance of claiming self defense, IMO. 

You gotta admit, though... the state police were called in to make this happen.  The first two recused themselves, but the third one was just benched by the attorney general.  If it was wrong for the first two DAs to try and bury the case, it's also pretty far out there for these men with local ties, no convictions that I'm aware of, etc, etc, to be held without bond when the circumstances are so... questionable?  And I don't care.  They definitely played a part in this whole mess.  But I didn't realize that this is what the left has been talking about when they say that they want to do away with the cash bail system, lol.  

Dumb question.... can the state have differing charges available for consideration, or are they obligated to pick one out there in GA?  I'd hate for them to set the bar too high and have somebody that is probably guilty of a lesser charge go unpunished.

[tvc184]

4 hours ago, CardinalBacker said:

This...  I understand the same.  If the two men didn't see the "crime" personally, they have no right to attempt a citizen's arrest.  That's my understanding of GA law as well.

I think it should have gone before a grand jury promptly, and I'm not sure that it would have ever gone if not for the media spotlight.  That's a problem.

My feeling is that you could make a good case for some type of manslaughter-type charge (or whatever they call it out there) but I think the prosecution would have a hard time proving a capital crime (or a federal hate crime) based on the evidence that has come to light this far. 

No chance of claiming self defense, IMO. 

You gotta admit, though... the state police were called in to make this happen.  The first two recused themselves, but the third one was just benched by the attorney general.  If it was wrong for the first two DAs to try and bury the case, it's also pretty far out there for these men with local ties, no convictions that I'm aware of, etc, etc, to be held without bond when the circumstances are so... questionable?  And I don't care.  They definitely played a part in this whole mess.  But I didn't realize that this is what the left has been talking about when they say that they want to do away with the cash bail system, lol.  

Dumb question.... can the state have differing charges available for consideration, or are they obligated to pick one out there in GA?  I'd hate for them to set the bar too high and have somebody that is probably guilty of a lesser charge go unpunished.

Each state has different laws on the way that cases are presented. In many controversial media trials they often accuse the DA of overcharging, thereby guaranteeing an acquittal. Like they knew that they could not get the death penalty case proven but they went with Capital Murder anyway, knowing that the jury would acquire whereas a manslaughter case might have gotten a conviction and 20 year sentence.  Or just the opposite, the DA might go for a lesser charge just to make sure of a conviction when a higher charge might have been valid  

 In Texas usually lesser included crimes are given as options to the jury. Like a DA might go for Capital Murder but the jury didn’t believe that the DA proved another felony (robbery, sexual assault, etc.) but did prove the cause of death. The jury could find the the defendant guilty of murder and not Capital. They might even go down to Manslaughter. The judge in his charge/instructions to the jury can give lesser included offenses that can be considered.  

 So I don’t think the bar too high is valid in Texas  

 According to cases that I have seen in the media, apparently some states don’t give that option. GA? No clue. 
 

Teaching at the police academy I usually give a scenario and ask all crimes (lesser included) that they can come up with just to make them think of the elements of a crime. 

 Here is the scenario... A man walks into a convenience store, demands money, gets some out of the register and then shoots and kills the clerk. Obviously the DA will go with Capital Murder but did the guy commit any other crimes. 
Murder, Aggravated Assault with Deadly Weapon, Agg Assault with Serious Bodily Injury, Assault with Bodily Injury, Assault by Offensive Contact, Assault by Threat, Agg Robbery, Robbery, Theft, Unlawful Carrying Weapon on Alcohol Licenses Premises, Disorderly Conduct Discharging Firearm in Public Place, Disorderly Conduct Displaying Weapon Calculated to Alarm.......

[SmashMouth]

33 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

Each state has different laws on the way that cases are presented. In many controversial media trials they often accuse the DA of overcharging, thereby guaranteeing an acquittal. Like they knew that they could not get the death penalty case proven but they went with Capital Murder anyway, knowing that the jury would acquire whereas a manslaughter case might have gotten a conviction and 20 year sentence.  Or just the opposite, the DA might go for a lesser charge just to make sure of a conviction when a higher charge might have been valid  

 In Texas usually lesser included crimes are given as options to the jury. Like a DA might go for Capital Murder but the jury didn’t believe that the DA proved another felony (robbery, sexual assault, etc.) but did prove the cause of death. The jury could find the the defendant guilty of murder and not Capital. They might even go down to Manslaughter. The judge in his charge/instructions to the jury can give lesser included offenses that can be considered.  

 So I don’t think the bar too high is valid in Texas  

 According to cases that I have seen in the media, apparently some states don’t give that option. GA? No clue. 
 

Teaching at the police academy I usually give a scenario and ask all crimes (lesser included) that they can come up with just to make them think of the elements of a crime. 

 Here is the scenario... A man walks into a convenience store, demands money, gets some out of the register and then shoots and kills the clerk. Obviously the DA will go with Capital Murder but did the guy commit any other crimes. 
Murder, Aggravated Assault with Deadly Weapon, Agg Assault with Serious Bodily Injury, Assault with Bodily Injury, Assault by Offensive Contact, Assault by Threat, Agg Robbery, Robbery, Theft, Unlawful Carrying Weapon on Alcohol Licenses Premises, Disorderly Conduct Discharging Firearm in Public Place, Disorderly Conduct Disposing Weapon Calculated to Alarm.......

Winner and still champion by KO...tvc184!

[CardinalBacker]

23 minutes ago, SmashMouth said:

Winner and still champion by KO...tvc184!

“It was a slip!” while searching for my mouthpiece....

[WOSdrummer99]

Glass joe

[baddog]

Just another choir boy jogging to get some skittles.....

Video surfaces of Ahmaud Arbery being arrested on suspicion of shoplifting in 2017

 

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[Kountzer]

They got video of other people prowling around in that construction sight.  They just didn't get chased down and shot.

[THE DUDE]

1 hour ago, Kountzer said:

They got video of other people prowling around in that construction sight.  They just didn't get chased down and shot.

they also did not get caught in the act nor did they take off running. 

[CardinalBacker]

9 minutes ago, THE DUDE said:

they also did not get caught in the act nor did they take off running. 

Give it up. There’s no amount of reality that’s gonna convince Kountzer that he’s not living in Birmingham, Alabama in 1963. 
 

[Kountzer]

2 hours ago, THE DUDE said:

they also did not get caught in the act nor did they take off running. 

If he didn't have anything in his hands that he stole then he wasn't running, he was jogging.  If he was evading the killers why jog in the middle of the street?  I'd head for the bushes.  

[Kountzer]

On 5/16/2020 at 7:23 PM, AggiesAreWe said:

Should a white male ( or even worse, a white female) jog down 21st street or Pine street in Silsbee?

There are white guys around all back in them woods. Not a lot but I've seen a few.   working, living, some raising bi racial babies.  Nobody cares, far as I can tell.

[Kountzer]

6 hours ago, baddog said:

Just another choir boy jogging to get some skittles.....

Video surfaces of Ahmaud Arbery being arrested on suspicion of shoplifting in 2017

 

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That's the point I am trying to make. South survival 101.  Don't get high.  Get close & stay close to the Lord.  Don't tiespass cause they will kill you and then get their journalist sons and daughters to dig  up whatever they can find  and justify it in the newspaper and media.  Black men: it may not seem like it but you really are not just dealing with flesh and blood.  You are dealing with spiritual wickedness in high places. They are dealing with the same from you.  

[baddog]

1 hour ago, Kountzer said:

 

That's the point I am trying to make. South survival 101.  Don't get high.  Get close & stay close to the Lord.  Don't tiespass cause they will kill you and then get their journalist sons and daughters to dig  up whatever they can find  and justify it in the newspaper and media.  Black men: it may not seem like it but you really are not just dealing with flesh and blood.  You are dealing with spiritual wickedness in high places. They are dealing with the same from you.  

Yes, they only do background checks in cases such as this. It’s a conspiracy against blacks. Let’s go with that.

[SmashMouth]

10 hours ago, THE DUDE said:

they also did not get caught in the act nor did they take off running. 

Which act? And would you actually call it “taking off running”? I’m not saying he might not be up to something (we will never know because a couple dip$hits playing rat patrol in a truck shot & killed him), but keep the discussion real. If not, you’re no different than Kountzer, just on the other end of the spectrum. 

[Guest ECBucFan]

8 hours ago, Kountzer said:

 Don't tiespass cause they will kill you and then get their journalist sons and daughters to dig  up whatever they can find  and justify it in the newspaper and media.  

I normally stay out of the political discussions, but DANG MAN? Are you KIDDING?

What about the other side of the coin? The media and other black supremacists groups made Micheal Brown out to be "gentle giant" that was so "loving, peaceful, gentle and kind" after he and accomplice Daren Wilson robbed a convenience store, assaulted the small built clerk, then brazenly disobeyed an officer, then attacked and punched the officer IN HIS PATROL CAR, while trying to wrestle away the cops gun to presumabaly kill the cop. 

The media then CRUCIFIED the poor cop, while making the thug named Micheal Brown out to be a saint. Then, the other "loving, peaceful, gentle and kind" people of the neighborhood all LIED about the whole thing causing riots. 

Black supremicist media at work.  

      

 

[Kountzer]

49 minutes ago, ECBucFan said:

I normally stay out of the political discussions, but DANG MAN? Are you KIDDING?

What about the other side of the coin? The media and other black supremacists groups made Micheal Brown out to be "gentle giant" that was so "loving, peaceful, gentle and kind" after he and accomplice Daren Wilson robbed a convenience store, assaulted the small built clerk, then brazenly disobeyed an officer, then attacked and punched the officer IN HIS PATROL CAR, while trying to wrestle away the cops gun to presumabaly kill the cop. 

The media then CRUCIFIED the poor cop, while making the thug named Micheal Brown out to be a saint. Then, the other "loving, peaceful, gentle and kind" people of the neighborhood all LIED about the whole thing causing riots. 

Black supremicist media at work.  

      

 

I have no idea what you are talking about.  Stuff happens everyday.  Can't keep up with all of itt.

[Kountzer]

9 minutes ago, Kountzer said:

I have no idea what you are talking about.  Stuff happens everyday.  Can't keep up with all of itt.

Officer Wilson was exonerated.  same for the officer that shot Philando Casttille, same for the officer that rode up and shot 13 yoTamir Rice instantly with no warning. You're winning.. What is your beef?  IF you see black supremacy in all that you obviously have problems.

[stevenash]

12 minutes ago, Kountzer said:

Officer Wilson was exonerated.  same for the officer that shot Philando Casttille, same for the officer that rode up and shot 13 yoTamir Rice instantly with no warning. You're winning.. What is your beef?  IF you see black supremacy in all that you obviously have problems.

Why were those officers exonerated?   What does that say about how the public, via the media, is presented with what happened and what really happened?

[THE DUDE]

2 hours ago, SmashMouth said:

Which act? And would you actually call it “taking off running”? I’m not saying he might not be up to something (we will never know because a couple dip$hits playing rat patrol in a truck shot & killed him), but keep the discussion real. If not, you’re no different than Kountzer, just on the other end of the spectrum. 

kountzer said "They got video of other people prowling around in that construction sight." that would be the "ACT"

[baddog]

31 minutes ago, Kountzer said:

I have no idea what you are talking about.  Stuff happens everyday.  Can't keep up with all of itt.

You been under that rock very long?

[Kountzer]

5 minutes ago, baddog said:

You been under that rock very long?

I never was on top of the whole Ferguson thing. It was said Brown stole some cigarillos.  Bad move.  it cost him his life.  It all goes back to survival 101.  They said he had his hands up; some say he did not.  Who knows what the exact truth is.  It will be straightened out in the judgment going on right now, and during the 1000 years in heaven.

[Kountzer]

27 minutes ago, stevenash said:

Why were those officers exonerated?   What does that say about how the public, via the media, is presented with what happened and what really happened?

They are almost always exonerated.  That is not new.