Defund, or abolish?

[WOSdrummer99]

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We need police to do their jobs. If there's no local PD, we would still have state and federal police agencies. Wouldn't the local LEO just be hired by them?

[baddog]

Let’s defund welfare, food stamps, section 8 housing, and free healthcare. If we can take care of ourselves without police, then we should take care of ourselves in every other aspect. Personally, I am locked and loaded and need none of those government handout programs to survive.

[tvc184]

1 hour ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

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We need police to do their jobs. If there's no local PD, we would still have state and federal police agencies. Wouldn't the local LEO just be hired by them?

No, they would not. It doesn’t work like that. They have age requirements, different standards, different academies, different laws and so on. You can’t just transfer to another agency.

I saw a guy on a Facebook forum (when they thought that Minneapolis was about to lay off all officers) say that there was no big deal because that state and county would just take their place. Okay, Minneapolis loses 800 officers. So the state has 800 troopers sitting around waiting for something to do? Nope.... I looked up MN state police and they have only 591 troopers in the entire state. Do they could completely strip the entire state and cover just over half of ONE city? The county had very few actual street cops but mostlt runs the county jail (which is pretty much the standard). 

 ...,,and again,  that is one city.

The federal government has completely different laws. They enforce the US Code and state/county/local police enforce their state Penal Code... which are all different. It would be like if all doctors quit, couldn’t veterinary assistants take their place?  They are both in medical fields.

 Then.... let’s assume that you could simply have the state police hire all local officers immediately and forget all of the stuff I just mentioned. You would have the exact same officers patrolling the exact same streets but now the city council who is mad at then would have no control at all over them. All that would do is to stop their own authority  and have another government have complete control over the same area that you used to control.

 To say this isn’t well thought out (by people  calling for it) might be the understatement of all time. 

[WOSdrummer99]

Good post @tvc184. You even answered my next question.

[WOSdrummer99]

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[CardinalBacker]

This is why everybody should have stood up for the truth whenever the first people started saying that the police and the justice system are racist, as evidenced by incarceration rates broken down by race. 
 

It went unchallenged, so now it’s generally accepted that law enforcement and the legal system as a whole are racist... what choice do they have but to  do away with it like an offensive statue?

 

This isn’t the end game. The American flag will be next, the means of production, and ultimately property ownership because they all are “systematically racist.”
 

I’m telling you... you’re already in danger just for dissent against the movement.  Im afraid that at some point we’re going to have to decide to subject ourselves to the mob or take up arms.  

 

[Big girl]

2 hours ago, tvc184 said:

No, they would not. It doesn’t work like that. They have age requirements, different standards, different academies, different laws and so on. You can’t just transfer to another agency.

I saw a guy on a Facebook forum (when they thought that Minneapolis was about to lay off all officers) say that there was no big deal because that state and county would just take their place. Okay, Minneapolis loses 800 officers. So the state has 800 troopers sitting around waiting for something to do? Nope.... I looked up MN state police and they have only 591 troopers in the entire state. Do they could completely strip the entire state and cover just over half of ONE city? The county had very few actual street cops but mostlt runs the county jail (which is pretty much the standard). 

 ...,,and again,  that is one city.

The federal government has completely different laws. They enforce the US Code and state/county/local police enforce their state Penal Code... which are all different. It would be like if all doctors quit, couldn’t veterinary assistants take their place?  They are both in medical fields.

 Then.... let’s assume that you could simply have the state police hire all local officers immediately and forget all of the stuff I just mentioned. You would have the exact same officers patrolling the exact same streets but now the city council who is mad at then would have no control at all over them. All that would do is to stop their own authority  and have another government have complete control over the same area that you used to control.

 To say this isn’t well thought out (by people  calling for it) might be the understatement of all time. 

What do they mean when they say defund?  I don't understand.

[WOSdrummer99]

37 minutes ago, Big girl said:

What do they mean when they say defund?  I don't understand.

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[baddog]

39 minutes ago, Big girl said:

What do they mean when they say defund?  I don't understand.

Say it isn’t so!

[tvc184]

30 minutes ago, Big girl said:

What do they mean when they say defund?  I don't understand.

Defund is to take away all funding.  In Minneapolis’ case, the city council voted to abolish the police department.

 They cannot however because it is in their city charter (equal to a city’s constitution) and it has to be voted in by the voters.

 Politically people are coming up with all kinds  of definitions such as Reduced funding, restructuring, contracting out, etc.

 The entire thing is political. Cities have almost always run their police departments at the bare bones cost. It is tax payer’s money so that is understandable, except..... do you want untrained officers? Many, if not most, police departments use the state minimums for officers. I would guess that most police agencies have no firearms training programs. The Cadets fire about 500 rounds of ammo in the police academy in five days and in many departments an officer can put in 25 years and never again have training. It goes for other areas. The state mandates 20 hours of training per year but it can be in any topic.

 Then something happened and the cry is for either more training or defunding which oddly are complete opposites.

 Yes officers get certain types of training mandated, particularly early in their career. For the first 4 years or so they are supposed to take “Core” courses or other mandated classes that the state has deemed as necessary. These are crime scene, Spanish, domestic violence, arrest-search-seizure, deescalation (recently added) and so on  

A 15 year officer might not have had any updates in those in 13 years however. You get out of the academy, run through these mandated courses as quickly as possible and then finish the last 30 years of your career. Then something happens and I have many times seen people use the phrase (when it is beneficial to them) “highly trained officers”. These highly trained officers then......

Hmmmm.....

I think the entire defund craze is nonsensical. They cannot get rid of the police any more then they can get rid of nurses. 

[CardinalBacker]

1 hour ago, Big girl said:

What do they mean when they say defund?  I don't understand.

That word means different things to different people. Some just want to see police budgets cut to teach them a lesson or make them de-militarize.  Others want police budgets (Or a part of them) taken away and given to community outreach programs. Others mean that they want the police departments dismantled, period. 
 

It’s a good question. 

[tvc184]

35 minutes ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

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Yep, like I said, the city no longer controls the police that patrol their streets. They will have the same number of cops .... they just won’t have control. Like the article said, 10% of the city residents are not black but the officers patrolling are 50% white and it causes the citizens concerns. Yep, the city abdicated that responsibility to the county.

I am not sure when Camden went through this charge but I found their crime index through 2012 where they were up to 400% higher than the national average. So now they have cut that in almost half..... only 200+% higher than the average.

 My department started community policing in 1995. I guess Camden was a bit behind the times.

 As an example in this area, I believe Beaumont and Port Arthur police departments have a combined budget of about $70 million. So they both abolish their departments and refuse to pay the county. So now Jefferson County has to come up with $70M new dollars and find 400 new officers. Then an elected sheriff will dictate who patrols those cities and what rules they will have. Acceptable?

[tvc184]

8 minutes ago, CardinalBacker said:

That word means different things to different people. Some just want to see police budgets cut to teach them a lesson or make them de-militarize.  Others want police budgets (Or a part of them) taken away and given to community outreach programs. Others mean that they want the police departments dismantled, period. 
 

It’s a good question. 

That is why I said it was political. Defund means to end funding or in other words, abolish.

 In politics, you can make up your own definitions. 

[Chester86]

Detroit defunded the police and OCP instituted the Robocop program.  I don’t care who you are but I wouldn’t buy that for a dollar.  (Movie reference - sorry)

[Big girl]

4 hours ago, tvc184 said:

Defund is to take away all funding.  In Minneapolis’ case, the city council voted to abolish the police department.

 They cannot however because it is in their city charter (equal to a city’s constitution) and it has to be voted in by the voters.

 Politically people are coming up with all kinds  of definitions such as Reduced funding, restructuring, contracting out, etc.

 The entire thing is political. Cities have almost always run their police departments at the bare bones cost. It is tax payer’s money so that is understandable, except..... do you want untrained officers? Many, if not most, police departments use the state minimums for officers. I would guess that most police agencies have no firearms training programs. The Cadets fire about 500 rounds of ammo in the police academy in five days and in many departments an officer can put in 25 years and never again have training. It goes for other areas. The state mandates 20 hours of training per year but it can be in any topic.

 Then something happened and the cry is for either more training or defunding which oddly are complete opposites.

 Yes officers get certain types of training mandated, particularly early in their career. For the first 4 years or so they are supposed to take “Core” courses or other mandated classes that the state has deemed as necessary. These are crime scene, Spanish, domestic violence, arrest-search-seizure, deescalation (recently added) and so on  

A 15 year officer might not have had any updates in those in 13 years however. You get out of the academy, run through these mandated courses as quickly as possible and then finish the last 30 years of your career. Then something happens and I have many times seen people use the phrase (when it is beneficial to them) “highly trained officers”. These highly trained officers then......

Hmmmm.....

I think the entire defund craze is nonsensical. They cannot get rid of the police any more then they can get rid of nurses. 

It doesn't make sense, at all.

[CardinalBacker]

13 minutes ago, Big girl said:

It doesn't make sense, at all.

When they say “defund the police” they’re talking about taking the money that police departments operate with. 
 

Some people want to see less police and some people want them to be completely disbanded. That’s what the Minneapolis City Council voted to do this week. Completely do away with the police force. 
 

Some people believe we’d be better off with no police. 

[baddog]

Instead of defunding, Houston increased their police budget.

[baddog]

43 minutes ago, Big girl said:

It doesn't make sense, at all.

When one possesses a one-track mind, it is easily derailed.

[NetCat]

1 hour ago, baddog said:

Instead of defunding, Houston increased their police budget.

Go Houston!

[tvc184]

1 hour ago, Big girl said:

It doesn't make sense, at all.

I agree, defunding makes no sense. Houston and San Diego just increased their police budgets, hopeful for improvements and training. 

[tvc184]

1 hour ago, CardinalBacker said:

When they say “defund the police” they’re talking about taking the money that police departments operate with. 
 

Some people want to see less police and some people want them to be completely disbanded. That’s what the Minneapolis City Council voted to do this week. Completely do away with the police force. 
 

Some people believe we’d be better off with no police. 

If anyone other than criminals want to do away with the police, they have a severe misunderstanding of what the police do.

 The people that would be devastated would likely be the people that are calling for their removal. 

[Big girl]

2 hours ago, CardinalBacker said:

When they say “defund the police” they’re talking about taking the money that police departments operate with. 
 

Some people want to see less police and some people want them to be completely disbanded. That’s what the Minneapolis City Council voted to do this week. Completely do away with the police force. 
 

Some people believe we’d be better off with no police. 

That's crazy. We do need police officiers.

[tvc184]

This is a tiny example of what is coming. The Seattle police chief made a statement that cover the takeover of one of their precincts by ANTIFA, their calls for violent crimes have tripled and they cannot respond.

 Here is part of that article... 

“Our calls for service have more than tripled,” she told reporters. “These are responses to emergency calls — rapes, robberies, and all sorts of violent acts that have been occurring in the area that we’re not able to get to.”

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[WOSdrummer99]

Wonder who is calling the shots in Seattle?

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From the link

Seattle rates as Forbes' best city for business for the second straight year. Credit a booming economy, educated work force and large millenial population. The metro area is home to the two richest people on the planet in Amazon founder Jeff Bezos and Microsoft cofounder Bill Gates. 

[tvc184]

2 minutes ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

Wonder who is calling the shots in Seattle?

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From the link

Seattle rates as Forbes' best city for business for the second straight year. Credit a booming economy, educated work force and large millenial population. The metro area is home to the two richest people on the planet in Amazon founder Jeff Bezos and Microsoft cofounder Bill Gates. 

Yep. Bet they have their own private police force and aren’t living near CHAZ......