Question for PamFAm, Setx Fan, and associates

[stevenash]

This is intended as a general question and not one pointed toward a specific incident or city.   Do  you believe that most physical incidents/confrontations between law enforcement personnel and demonstrators are the result of an action initiated by the  demonstrator or the member of law enforcement?  Also, do you believe that the riots in various city such as Minneapolis and Portland were only peaceful protesting gone wrong because the law enforcement personnel wanted to start something?  In the instance in St. Louis where the property owners brought guns out of their house to protect their property, was that wrong?  If they didn't have guns, would the protestors simply have walked by and done nothing to the  property and/or their owners?  Whatever you do, PLEASE do NOT try to say, suggest, infer that you are unaware of any of these.

[CardinalBacker]

I'll hop in here, if that's okay.

Of course the situations are initiated by the protesters.  The protesters are arriving to the scene of a police presence and starting to protest... the protesters start their business and the police have to respond to the disturbance.  But if you are anti-police, none of if matters.  The same people who condemn police responses would NEVER allow another human to treat them as such.  I can't imagine a situation where Pamfam would allow another man to spit in his face.  But if a cop responds to someone spitting in his face, he/she gets held to a higher standard, as he says.   If they were watching videos of some kid screaming in a gangbanger's face, they'd completely understand the kid getting knocked out.  But if a kid wants to curse at the cops, the cop is honor bound to do nothing or face criticism from those that are anti-police. If our police are so racist, oppressive, and violent, I don't understand why all of those people are brave enough to curse, spit, throw stuff, etc, right out in front of them.  If you are genuinely scared of somebody, you don't try to provoke confrontations with that person.  Period. 

I think that a lot of people came out to protest with nothing but vocalizing their frustrations on their mind.  Unfortunately there were also people who saw an opportunity to loot Foot Locker.  At that point, it's up to the peaceful protesters to confront those who are hijacking the protest (which we saw in some cases), or just go home.  Either is acceptable.  They should also roundly condemn the violence and lawlessness.  That's been one of my biggest complaints about the movement.  Even if someone chooses not to participate in the lawlessness, they condone it with their silence or often openly support it (the lawlessness).  It doesn't matter what happens- There is never a reason to loot a Target.  Ever.  But it's crickets from the BLM and their many followers, unless they're blaming other people for CAUSING the mob to loot Target.  It's bananas.

I felt like those homeowners were well within their rights to brandish weapons at the mob.  I also felt like the LA County DA's husband was also probably within his rights when the protesters showed up at their house.

 

[stevenash]

Paging PamFam and Setx Fan

[baddog]

28 minutes ago, CardinalBacker said:

I'll hop in here, if that's okay.

Of course the situations are initiated by the protesters.  The protesters are arriving to the scene of a police presence and starting to protest... the protesters start their business and the police have to respond to the disturbance.  But if you are anti-police, none of if matters.  The same people who condemn police responses would NEVER allow another human to treat them as such.  I can't imagine a situation where Pamfam would allow another man to spit in his face.  But if a cop responds to someone spitting in his face, he/she gets held to a higher standard, as he says.   If they were watching videos of some kid screaming in a gangbanger's face, they'd completely understand the kid getting knocked out.  But if a kid wants to curse at the cops, the cop is honor bound to do nothing or face criticism from those that are anti-police. If our police are so racist, oppressive, and violent, I don't understand why all of those people are brave enough to curse, spit, throw stuff, etc, right out in front of them.  If you are genuinely scared of somebody, you don't try to provoke confrontations with that person.  Period. 

I think that a lot of people came out to protest with nothing but vocalizing their frustrations on their mind.  Unfortunately there were also people who saw an opportunity to loot Foot Locker.  At that point, it's up to the peaceful protesters to confront those who are hijacking the protest (which we saw in some cases), or just go home.  Either is acceptable.  They should also roundly condemn the violence and lawlessness.  That's been one of my biggest complaints about the movement.  Even if someone chooses not to participate in the lawlessness, they condone it with their silence or often openly support it (the lawlessness).  It doesn't matter what happens- There is never a reason to loot a Target.  Ever.  But it's crickets from the BLM and their many followers, unless they're blaming other people for CAUSING the mob to loot Target.  It's bananas.

I felt like those homeowners were well within their rights to brandish weapons at the mob.  I also felt like the LA County DA's husband was also probably within his rights when the protesters showed up at their house.

 

I just want to remind people that the DA in St. Louis has Soros backing. She will never honor the 2nd amendment. 

[Setx fan]

1 hour ago, stevenash said:

This is intended as a general question and not one pointed toward a specific incident or city.   Do  you believe that most physical incidents/confrontations between law enforcement personnel and demonstrators are the result of an action initiated by the  demonstrator or the member of law enforcement?  Also, do you believe that the riots in various city such as Minneapolis and Portland were only peaceful protesting gone wrong because the law enforcement personnel wanted to start something?  In the instance in St. Louis where the property owners brought guns out of their house to protect their property, was that wrong?  If they didn't have guns, would the protestors simply have walked by and done nothing to the  property and/or their owners?  Whatever you do, PLEASE do NOT try to say, suggest, infer that you are unaware of any of these.

I would like to believe that most times things are instigated by demonstrators although I know for a fact that sometimes things are instigated by law enforcement. I wouldn’t be able to give you an accurate percentage but I know things are sometimes escalated by law enforcement. 

[stevenash]

27 minutes ago, Setx fan said:

I would like to believe that most times things are instigated by demonstrators although I know for a fact that sometimes things are instigated by law enforcement. I wouldn’t be able to give you an accurate percentage but I know things are sometimes escalated by law enforcement. 

Can you give me an example where law enforcement initiates violence with no provocation?

[Setx fan]

10 minutes ago, stevenash said:

Can you give me an example where law enforcement initiates violence with no provocation?

Botham Jean and Atiana Jefferson are 2 more notable cases 

[stevenash]

So those two were peacefully protesting and were suddenly attacked by police without provocation?

[Setx fan]

Peacefully protesting? No. They were in their house minding their business. Sorry I didn’t fully understand your question. But yes peaceful protesters are attacked all the time. You can look it up if you like 

[stevenash]

So they weren't protesting?  That was the point of the question but you took it elsewhere in an attempt to legitimize your claim even though it was totally unrelated to the subject.   In both of the cases you mentioned, did police just simply find a home belonging to a black person and walk in and blast away?   Or were they there due to an investigative order from their superiors?  If they were there based upon an order from their superiors, were the superiors racists giving out instructions to kill some black people or were the superiors simply responding to a complaint from a citizen?  And I am very sorry, but you just saying " yes peaceful protestors are attacked all the time, you can look it up" is not an example.  It is merely a statement or opinion offered by you.

[Setx fan]

13 minutes ago, stevenash said:

So they weren't protesting?  That was the point of the question but you took it elsewhere in an attempt to legitimize your claim even though it was totally unrelated to the subject.   In both of the cases you mentioned, did police just simply find a home belonging to a black person and walk in and blast away?   Or were they there due to an investigative order from their superiors?  If they were there based upon an order from their superiors, were the superiors racists giving out instructions to kill some black people or were the superiors simply responding to a complaint from a citizen?  And I am very sorry, but you just saying " yes peaceful protestors are attacked all the time, you can look it up" is not an example.  It is merely a statement or opinion offered by you.

I sincerely apoligize for misunderstanding your question. I’ve already mentioned Donavan La Bella on another thread. Those other 2 I mentioned weren’t under any investigation or anything. They were upstanding citizens. You not knowing about their cases explains a lot 

[stevenash]

Then answer my question.   Did the police just randomly appear at their homes in order to kill them  or was there a reason, in both instances, that the police showed up.   

 

Micah Xavier Johnson was killed by police in Dallas.   Was it strictly because the police were racist?

[Setx fan]

1 minute ago, stevenash said:

Then answer my question.   Did the police just randomly appear at their homes in order to kill them  or was there a reason, in both instances, that the police showed up.   

Botham Jean? No reason at all. Atiana? A concerned neighbor called the police for a wellness check because her front door was open. The officer creeped around her house without announcing himself like she was a suspect. Then got spooked and shot her when she looked out her blinds to see who was in her back yard. 

[stevenash]

So the officer already knew that the victim was black and shot her for that reason and not because of other circumstances?

 

Also, I will ask again the other question that you refused to answer ( no surprise)

Micah Xavier Johnson was killed by police in Dallas.   Was it strictly because the police were racist?  ( once again, dont try the " i don't know about this one tactic)

[CardinalBacker]

19 minutes ago, Setx fan said:

Botham Jean? No reason at all. Atiana? A concerned neighbor called the police for a wellness check because her front door was open. The officer creeped around her house without announcing himself like she was a suspect. Then got spooked and shot her when she looked out her blinds to see who was in her back yard. 

You left out that part about Atiana pointing a gun at the officer. 
 

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that officer was indicted and is awaiting trial, too. 

[Setx fan]

2 minutes ago, stevenash said:

 

 

Also, I will ask again the other question that you refused to answer ( no surprise)

Micah Xavier Johnson was killed by police in Dallas.   Was it strictly because the police were racist?  ( once again, dont try the " i don't know about this one tactic)

You edited the thing after I’d already responded. Micah Johnson is another victim of police brutality. All police brutality isn’t a result of racism although racism is a factor in some cases. 

[Setx fan]

2 minutes ago, CardinalBacker said:

You left out that part about Atiana pointing a gun at the officer. 
 

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that officer was indicted and is awaiting trial, too. 

First off she didn’t point a gun. Second she has second amendment rights just like everyone else. If some one is creeping in your back yard that would probably give you a good reason to grab your gun. If he hasn’t announced himself how does she know he’s an officer? I’m glad he’s indicted and I hope he’s found guilty but you never know with this system 

[CardinalBacker]

23 minutes ago, Setx fan said:

Botham Jean? No reason at all. Atiana? A concerned neighbor called the police for a wellness check because her front door was open. The officer creeped around her house without announcing himself like she was a suspect. Then got spooked and shot her when she looked out her blinds to see who was in her back yard. 

Seriously, though... these bug me. Atiana and Breonna Taylor. Those situations can and do happen to all kinds of people... it could easily happen to me. 
 

I don’t know what the answer is. In this case (door ajar, responding to a welfare check) you’d want to sneak around and look in to determine if someone was at risk. You’d also want control of the situation until all parties have been identified. If the person inside the house pulled a weapon, you can’t expect a police officer to allow himself to be shot. If the situation was exactly the same but the officer had killed a kidnapper, we’d be pinning a medal on him.  But the young lady has every right to defend herself from someone trying to enter the residence when she isn’t sure of that person’s intentions.  It’s a grey area, and I don’t know what fixes it. 

[CardinalBacker]

2 minutes ago, Setx fan said:

First off she didn’t point a gun. Second she has second amendment rights just like everyone else. If some one is creeping in your back yard that would probably give you a good reason to grab your gun. If he hasn’t announced himself how does she know he’s an officer? I’m glad he’s indicted and I hope he’s found guilty but you never know with this system 

“Jefferson's nephew told authorities that she had taken a handgun from her purse when she heard noises outside and pointed it toward the window, according to an arrest warrant. But police have said she was within her rights to protect herself.”

Quoted from the link. I personally don’t know. 

[stevenash]

14 minutes ago, Setx fan said:

You edited the thing after I’d already responded. Micah Johnson is another victim of police brutality. All police brutality isn’t a result of racism although racism is a factor in some cases. 

What police brutality did Micah Johnson endure and when?  Was it before or after he killed 5 police officers and injured nine others?  Are you suggesting that there was justification for what he did?

[CardinalBacker]

1 minute ago, stevenash said:

What police brutality did Micah Johnson endure and when?  Was it before or after he killed 5 police officers and injured nine others?  Are you suggesting that there was justification for what he did?

Oof. 

[Setx fan]

10 minutes ago, stevenash said:

What police brutality did Micah Johnson endure and when?  Was it before or after he killed 5 police officers and injured nine others?  Are you suggesting that there was justification for what he did?

No I thought you were mentioning a white guy I know of in Dallas (can’t remember his name) who died a victim of police brutality. But yea police did what they had to do with Micah. He was dangerous

[stevenash]

5 minutes ago, Setx fan said:

No I thought you were mentioning a white guy I know of in Dallas (can’t remember his name) who died a victim of police brutality. But yea police did what they had to do with Micah. He was dangerous

Should a sector of the  population, particularly those who hold law enforcement in high esteem as well as all of the loved ones of the deceased, have proceeded to burn down black neighborhoods in the name of "justice" and, when questioned about it, state they were "just peacefully protesting"?  Why is it the NFL denied the Dallas Cowboys to recognize those slain officers on their uniforms but now totally endorses kneeling for the anthem?

[CardinalBacker]

8 minutes ago, Setx fan said:

No I thought you were mentioning a white guy I know of in Dallas (can’t remember his name) who died a victim of police brutality. But yea police did what they had to do with Micah. He was dangerous

Hooray! One we can all agree on!

[Setx fan]

24 minutes ago, CardinalBacker said:

“Jefferson's nephew told authorities that she had taken a handgun from her purse when she heard noises outside and pointed it toward the window, according to an arrest warrant. But police have said she was within her rights to protect herself.”

Quoted from the link. I personally don’t know. 

I’m aware of the nephews statement. Kids can be coerced into making statements like that easily. The shooter himself never mentioned a gun initially.