Question for PamFAm, Setx Fan, and associates

[stevenash]

Just now, Setx fan said:

I’m aware of the nephews statement. Kids can be coerced into making statements like that easily. The shooter himself never mentioned a gun initially. 

So, because kids can be coerced into such statements, you know for a fact that this is what happened?  I wonder who "coerced" Michael Browns associates to say he said "hands up don't shoot"?  I know, I know, it was simply the trauma of the time and that should not be held against them.

[Setx fan]

4 minutes ago, stevenash said:

Should a sector of the  population, particularly those who hold law enforcement in high esteem as well as all of the loved ones of the deceased, have proceeded to burn down black neighborhoods in the name of "justice" and, when questioned about it, state they were "just peacefully protesting"? 

I’m lost. Who, what, when, where, and how? 

[stevenash]

Just now, Setx fan said:

I’m lost. Who, what, when, where, and how? 

SHould those who strongly support the 5 slain black officers in Dallas ( by Micah)have proceeded to burn down black neighborhoods in the name of "justice" and, when questioned about it, state they were "just peacefully protesting"?   ( and you knew PRECISELY who what when where how)

[Setx fan]

3 minutes ago, stevenash said:

So, because kids can be coerced into such statements, you know for a fact that this is what happened?  I wonder who "coerced" Michael Browns associates to say he said "hands up don't shoot"?  I know, I know, it was simply the trauma of the time and that should not be held against them.

I don’t know for a fact but I do know a gun had nothing to do with his actions. He never mentioned a gun as to why he shot her. He said he was frightened just by her image through the blinds. 

[stevenash]

2 minutes ago, Setx fan said:

I don’t know for a fact but I do know a gun had nothing to do with his actions. He never mentioned a gun as to why he shot her. He said he was frightened just by her image through the blinds. 

Then you are essentially admitting that you are speculating.  Do you believe it is a good idea, when discussing life and death situations to arrive at a conclusion based on speculation?

[Setx fan]

5 minutes ago, stevenash said:

SHould those who strongly support the 5 slain black officers in Dallas ( by Micah)have proceeded to burn down black neighborhoods in the name of "justice" and, when questioned about it, state they were "just peacefully protesting"?   ( and you knew PRECISELY who what when where how)

If those things happen often and the perpetrators some time get away with it while maybe serving a 10 year sentence at the most for it? I wouldn’t suggest those actions but I would somewhat understand

[CardinalBacker]

23 minutes ago, Setx fan said:

I’m aware of the nephews statement. Kids can be coerced into making statements like that easily. The shooter himself never mentioned a gun initially. 

Even the family’s attorney said that she had one. 

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Despite what you see/hear, cops aren’t just out there shooting people for the fun of it.  
 

You and I are both intelligent people. The question is why do we both have access to the same facts but arrive at opposite conclusions? I probably give LEOs the benefit of the doubt when sometimes they might not deserve it, and it kinda seems like they can’t catch a break from you, even when they might possibly deserve one. 
My guess is that you see this incident as racially based, when I haven’t seen anything to indicate to me that the killing was anything more than avoidable accident. Except that I don’t know how to avoid accidents like these. 
A lot of people would argue that police should identify themselves, but that’s not always the right procedure based on the nature of the interaction, in my untrained opinion.  And as long as the bad guys sometimes yell “freeze! Police!!!” before they rob someone, identifying oneself isn’t gonna fix this problem.  

[Setx fan]

3 minutes ago, stevenash said:

Then you are essentially admitting that you are speculating.  Do you believe it is a good idea, when discussing life and death situations to arrive at a conclusion based on speculation?

I would say it’s a little better than speculation but ok we can go with that word. And as far as life and death Atiana’s dead and she’s not coming back. The officer was easily frightened like many other officers who don’t belong in law enforcement. I’m pretty sure she didn’t point a gun at him but I’m 100% sure it didn’t matter because he said himself he was spooked by her image through the blinds 

[stevenash]

Before such a situation arises, how does one know which officers belong and which dont?  Are you going to sit there and tell me there is a way to be sure that ALL peace officers will NEVER error in judgement and/or responses?  In what country does such a situation exist?  I am sure I can go to the internet and find hundreds of names of white folks who were killed by officers without a riot ever ensuing.  Why is that?  By the way, those five police officers in Dallas are dead and are never coming back.  Why does that not concern you?

[Setx fan]

12 minutes ago, CardinalBacker said:

Even the family’s attorney said that she had one. 

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Despite what you see/hear, cops aren’t just out there shooting people for the fun of it.  
 

You and I are both intelligent people. The question is why do we both have access to the same facts but arrive at opposite conclusions? I probably give LEOs the benefit of the doubt when sometimes they might not deserve it, and it kinda seems like they can’t catch a break from you, even when they might possibly deserve one. 
My guess is that you see this incident as racially based, when I haven’t seen anything to indicate to me that the killing was anything more than avoidable accident. Except that I don’t know how to avoid accidents like these. 
A lot of people would argue that police should identify themselves, but that’s not always the right procedure based on the nature of the interaction, in my untrained opinion.  And as long as the bad guys sometimes yell “freeze! Police!!!” before they rob someone, identifying oneself isn’t gonna fix this problem.  

I’m well aware of the family’s attorney. He did state she owned a gun but not that she pointed one at the officer. I’ve never implied the officer was some extreme racist who just wants to go around and kill black people. I don’t think there are many of those type of cops at all. I don’t think there are a lot of really good cops neither. I think most cops are just Average Joes with a badge. A simple wellness check was obviously way over this particular Average Joe’s head and it ended very horribly. This could happen to anybody of any race but it just seems things like this are more likely to happen to blacks than any other race. 
 

An officer is ALWAYS supposed to announce himself unless he has a “no knock” warrant or something of that sort. He wasn’t there to arrest a criminal. He was only there for a wellness check so he should have announced himself and been smarter and more cautious. Especially when you know your easily frightened and trigger happy. Smh 

[CardinalBacker]

8 minutes ago, Setx fan said:

I’m well aware of the family’s attorney. He did state she owned a gun but not that she pointed one at the officer. I’ve never implied the officer was some extreme racist who just wants to go around and kill black people. I don’t think there are many of those type of cops at all. I don’t think there are a lot of really good cops neither. I think most cops are just Average Joes with a badge. A simple wellness check was obviously way over this particular Average Joe’s head and it ended very horribly. This could happen to anybody of any race but it just seems things like this are more likely to happen to blacks than any other race. 
 

An officer is ALWAYS supposed to announce himself unless he has a “no knock” warrant or something of that sort. He wasn’t there to arrest a criminal. He was only there for a wellness check so he should have announced himself and been smarter and more cautious. Especially when you know your easily frightened and trigger happy. Smh 

Jesus. How about body cam footage and a freeze frame that shows the pistol in her hand?

So... you don’t believe the police version, you don’t believe the witness, you don’t believe the family spokesperson.... I’m sure you still won’t accept that she pointed a gun. You, my friend, are part of the problem. You’re one of those that will deny that the earth is round if you choose not to believe it. 

Once again... the neighbors asked this cop to go over because he felt like something wasn’t right. The police officer walked up and looked through both open doors and saw no one. You’re right though. If somebody had been in the back room raping this young woman, the police should have definitely announced themselves and allowed the rapist to arm himself.  
You’re blinded by your own racism and dislike of law enforcement, IMO. 

And I’m possibly too accommodating of LEOs. 

[Realville]

I am tired of the Media Brutality. It’s amazing how the media has a template on just what murders that they think should be important to sell the outrage when there are injustices to all kinds of races that go totally unreported. Just like this virus panic that is being pushed. All of sudden the Democrats are Pro Life when it comes to the virus but never mind the 800,000 babies aborted each year. 400,000 of those 800,000 are black babies. Selective outrage. Control Information Disseminated Control the People.

[Setx fan]

1 hour ago, CardinalBacker said:

Jesus. How about body cam footage and a freeze frame that shows the pistol in her hand?

So... you don’t believe the police version, you don’t believe the witness, you don’t believe the family spokesperson.... I’m sure you still won’t accept that she pointed a gun. You, my friend, are part of the problem. You’re one of those that will deny that the earth is round if you choose not to believe it. 

Once again... the neighbors asked this cop to go over because he felt like something wasn’t right. The police officer walked up and looked through both open doors and saw no one. You’re right though. If somebody had been in the back room raping this young woman, the police should have definitely announced themselves and allowed the rapist to arm himself.  
You’re blinded by your own racism and dislike of law enforcement, IMO. 

And I’m possibly too accommodating of LEOs. 

 

1 hour ago, CardinalBacker said:

Jesus. How about body cam footage and a freeze frame that shows the pistol in her hand?

So... you don’t believe the police version, you don’t believe the witness, you don’t believe the family spokesperson.... I’m sure you still won’t accept that she pointed a gun. You, my friend, are part of the problem. You’re one of those that will deny that the earth is round if you choose not to believe it. 

Once again... the neighbors asked this cop to go over because he felt like something wasn’t right. The police officer walked up and looked through both open doors and saw no one. You’re right though. If somebody had been in the back room raping this young woman, the police should have definitely announced themselves and allowed the rapist to arm himself.  
You’re blinded by your own racism and dislike of law enforcement, IMO. 

And I’m possibly too accommodating of LEOs. 

The freeze frame looks weird. It goes from hearing the gunshot to seeing what looks like a gun on the ground then back to what the officer supposedly seen the moment before he shot her although this is not what he said he saw. There are no blinds or anything like that on the picture but the gun is very clear and visible although nothing else on the picture is very clear. Again it is protocol for officers to announce themselves except on seldom occasions. Wellness checks are not one of those occasions. If someone is raping her I don’t think the door is wide open. If the door is open at a crime seen and stays open from the time of the neighbor’s call till the officer arrives the suspects have probably already done what they’ve done and flees. No need for you and your partner to sneak around the back because if there is a criminal there he can now exit out the front door. He had a simple task and he made it harder than it had to be. 

[CardinalBacker]

2 hours ago, Setx fan said:

 

The freeze frame looks weird. It goes from hearing the gunshot to seeing what looks like a gun on the ground then back to what the officer supposedly seen the moment before he shot her although this is not what he said he saw. There are no blinds or anything like that on the picture but the gun is very clear and visible although nothing else on the picture is very clear. Again it is protocol for officers to announce themselves except on seldom occasions. Wellness checks are not one of those occasions. If someone is raping her I don’t think the door is wide open. If the door is open at a crime seen and stays open from the time of the neighbor’s call till the officer arrives the suspects have probably already done what they’ve done and flees. No need for you and your partner to sneak around the back because if there is a criminal there he can now exit out the front door. He had a simple task and he made it harder than it had to be. 

You’re killing me, Smalls. 
 

I don’t necessarily agree with your “protocols,” but guys like TVC could probably fill us in. He teaches at a police academy and can probably give us some actual insight as to what they are trained to do. 
 

 

[Setx fan]

9 hours ago, CardinalBacker said:

You’re killing me, Smalls. 
 

I don’t necessarily agree with your “protocols,” but guys like TVC could probably fill us in. He teaches at a police academy and can probably give us some actual insight as to what they are trained to do. 
 

 

I’d like to hear what he has to say about that and also an officers’s response when he see’s a gun. In my opinion it doesn’t make sense to say “Let me see your hands” when you see someone’s hand and it has a gun in it. A more appropriate response would probably be “drop your weapon” or to simply yell “gun! gun! gun!” like I’ve seen in other videos where police have shot suspects who actually had guns.

[baddog]

The officer, even if he sees a gun, has to wait until he/she is shot 3 times before determining whether or not the subject should be considered a death threat.... at which point they can LEGALLY return fire. 

[CardinalBacker]

8 minutes ago, Setx fan said:

I’d like to hear what he has to say about that and also an officers’s response when he see’s a gun. In my opinion it doesn’t make sense to say “Let me see your hands” when you see someone’s hand and it has a gun in it. A more appropriate response would probably be “drop your weapon” or to simply yell “gun! gun! gun!” like I’ve seen in other videos where police have shot suspects who actually had guns.

I think the "gun! gun! gun!" is used to warn other officers that the suspect has a weapon in their hands.  

This is what's hard to imagine.  You know that feeling you get when you wake up and think that you heard someone in your house?  Now, imagine that you are that person, and the human being wearing the police uniform that's actually outside your window has the same exact adrenaline/fear going.... And both of you have weapons drawn.  Something bad is going to happen, and more often than not the trained person will survive the events.  

I don't think it's as easy as just saying "the police have to announce themselves whenever conducting an investigation or serving a warrant," because that will without a doubt expose LEOs to even greater danger when they are forced to confront bad guys.  I really wish that I knew the answer.  Like I said, though..... I can relate.  I could very easily be one those people who could be shot if they come into my place unannounced.  

 

[CardinalBacker]

4 minutes ago, baddog said:

The officer, even if he sees a gun, has to wait until he/she is shot 3 times before determining whether or not the subject should be considered a death threat.... at which point they can LEGALLY return fire. 

And the wounds must be life-threatening, not just superficial. 

AND the officer must return fire with a weapon of the same caliber or smaller, and in a number of shots not to exceed the amount used by the citizen.

[stevenash]

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[Setx fan]

3 minutes ago, CardinalBacker said:

1. I think the "gun! gun! gun!" is used to warn other officers that the suspect has a weapon in their hands.  

2. This is what's hard to imagine.  You know that feeling you get when you wake up and think that you heard someone in your house?  Now, imagine that you are that person, and the human being wearing the police uniform that's actually outside your window has the same exact adrenaline/fear going.... And both of you have weapons drawn.  Something bad is going to happen, and more often than not the trained person will survive the events.  

3. I don't think it's as easy as just saying "the police have to announce themselves whenever conducting an investigation or serving a warrant," because that will without a doubt expose LEOs to even greater danger when they are forced to confront bad guys.  I really wish that I knew the answer.  Like I said, though..... I can relate.  I could very easily be one those people who could be shot if they come into my place unannounced.  

 

1. His partner was with him.

2.You would think the trained person would be trained to avoid these situations.  Common sense would tell me if I’m creeping in someone’s back yard there’s a chance the occupants can be alarmed.

3. The policemen announcing himself is the best solution. He was not doing an investigation or serving a warrant. He was supposed to be doing a wellness check. 

[LumRaiderFan]

11 minutes ago, stevenash said:

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Powerful message from a REAL hero.

[SmashMouth]

Guys, while the content of this post is very informative and entertaining, you must realize a couple things as relates to the title of this post:

1. PAMFAM10 is jerking your collective chains. He’s gonna dispute some of you based on his ideology, but just as often, he enjoys getting a rise out if everyone. I know I’m definitely guilty of this too. 
2. SETX FAN doesn’t have the mental wherewithal to make sense of ANY of this stuff. Indoctrination and ignorance will cut his path 99% of the time. 
Trying to shed light in a vacuum fellas. 

[CardinalBacker]

1 hour ago, Setx fan said:

1. His partner was with him.

2.You would think the trained person would be trained to avoid these situations.  Common sense would tell me if I’m creeping in someone’s back yard there’s a chance the occupants can be alarmed.

3. The policemen announcing himself is the best solution. He was not doing an investigation or serving a warrant. He was supposed to be doing a wellness check. 

Man, it sounds like you have it all figured out. I just don’t understand why you and your friends aren’t cops. I mean, y’all could just leave your guns at the community center and show up at every scene with your sirens blaring (after you drove there at the posted speed limits) and defuse every situation without even using hurtful words. Bad white guys would just hop in the front seat next to and head off to jail (since we all know that racism is the only reason blacks get arrested).  
Man, c’mon... we need you and your type to save us from them polices.  

[SmashMouth]

21 minutes ago, CardinalBacker said:

Man, it sounds like you have it all figured out. I just don’t understand why you and your friends aren’t cops. I mean, y’all could just leave your guns at the community center and show up at every scene with your sirens blaring (after you drove there at the posted speed limits) and defuse every situation without even using hurtful words. Bad white guys would just hop in the front seat next to and head off to jail (since we all know that racism is the only reason blacks get arrested).  
Man, c’mon... we need you and your type to save us from them polices.  

Read my post just before this post. 

[PAMFAM10]

21 hours ago, stevenash said:

This is intended as a general question and not one pointed toward a specific incident or city.   Do  you believe that most physical incidents/confrontations between law enforcement personnel and demonstrators are the result of an action initiated by the  demonstrator or the member of law enforcement?  Also, do you believe that the riots in various city such as Minneapolis and Portland were only peaceful protesting gone wrong because the law enforcement personnel wanted to start something?  In the instance in St. Louis where the property owners brought guns out of their house to protect their property, was that wrong?  If they didn't have guns, would the protestors simply have walked by and done nothing to the  property and/or their owners?  Whatever you do, PLEASE do NOT try to say, suggest, infer that you are unaware of any of these.

Mostly there to control the protest. Have have seen incidents where both sides where too strong. In all the cops are just doing there jobs.

Ive seen peaceful protest (the majority) it’s been protests in almost every city in the USA even here in Setx that was nothing more than peaceful protest (but that don’t get the cameras rolling.) The ones that turned bad was going to turn bad regardless of law enforcement.

 I’ve seen guns used correctly to defend property I’ve seen it used poorly to defend property. I haven’t seen any homes being destroyed.