Should Illegals be given...

[Englebert]

Should people residing in the United States illegally be given the right to bear arms? Should the United States allow foreign invaders to break our laws then legally arm themselves? Or restated, should hard working undocumented people trying to better themselves and their family be afforded the ultimate opportunity to protect themselves/family from unsolicited attack? What do you think? Should illegals be given the right to bear arms? (I thought about this topic years ago, but never posted it. While renewing my LTC today, I thought about it again. Today is as good a day as any...maybe better.)

[Ty Cobb]

Illegal immigrants should get nothing expect a few nights in prison until they can be deported back to their country. They do not deserve any rights in the USA!!! 

[SmashMouth]

7 hours ago, Englebert said:

Should people residing in the United States illegally be given the right to bear arms? Should the United States allow foreign invaders to break our laws then legally arm themselves? Or restated, should hard working undocumented people trying to better themselves and their family be afforded the ultimate opportunity to protect themselves/family from unsolicited attack? What do you think? Should illegals be given the right to bear arms? (I thought about this topic years ago, but never posted it. While renewing my LTC today, I thought about it again. Today is as good a day as any...maybe better.)

Definitely not.

[CardinalBacker]

10 hours ago, Englebert said:

Should people residing in the United States illegally be given the right to bear arms? Should the United States allow foreign invaders to break our laws then legally arm themselves? Or restated, should hard working undocumented people trying to better themselves and their family be afforded the ultimate opportunity to protect themselves/family from unsolicited attack? What do you think? Should illegals be given the right to bear arms? (I thought about this topic years ago, but never posted it. While renewing my LTC today, I thought about it again. Today is as good a day as any...maybe better.)

There's no decision to be made.... it was already given in the Bill of Rights.  You can quibble over what is meant by the word "people" in the phrase "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.'" Most illegal immigrants are here doing work that American Citizens won't do, for menial wages.  That community is the least likely to contact law enforcement when victimized, and therefore one of the most vulnerable to criminals.  

Conservatives and Republicans need to stop demonizing the immigrant population and figure out how to get them to vote Republican.  There's no reason why a God-fearing, hard-working, law-abiding, family-loving, financially conservative group of people should be voting Democrat, other than the fact that the Repubs don't want their votes. 

 

[Ty Cobb]

34 minutes ago, CardinalBacker said:

There's no decision to be made.... it was already given in the Bill of Rights.  You can quibble over what is meant by the word "people" in the phrase "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.'" Most illegal immigrants are here doing work that American Citizens won't do, for menial wages.  That community is the least likely to contact law enforcement when victimized, and therefore one of the most vulnerable to criminals.  

Conservatives and Republicans need to stop demonizing the immigrant population and figure out how to get them to vote Republican.  There's no reason why a God-fearing, hard-working, law-abiding, family-loving, financially conservative group of people should be voting Democrat, other than the fact that the Repubs don't want their votes. 

 

The Bill of Rights is for Americans, not illegal immigrants.  The Bill of Rights protects American citizens, not illegal immigrants.  Illegal immigrants should not have the same rights that American citizens have.  If they want rights, become American's the right way!!!

[CardinalBacker]

2 minutes ago, Ty Cobb said:

The Bill of Rights is for Americans, not illegal immigrants.  The Bill of Rights protects American citizens, not illegal immigrants.  Illegal immigrants should not have the same rights that American citizens have.  If they want rights, become American's the right way!!!

That's weird... I don't remember reading that anywhere. That's good to know.  All of this time I never realized that illegal immigrants don't have

1.  The right to free speech

2.  The right to keep and bear arms

3.  No quartering of soldiers

4.  Freedom from unreasonable search and seizures

5.  The right to due process of law, freedom from self-incrimination, double jeopardy.

6.  The right to a speedy trial

7.   Right to a trial by jury

8.   Freedom from excessive bail, cruel and unusual punishments.

According to you, immigrants could be punished for speaking out against the government, searched without warrants, no rights of due process, no right to a trial, and tortured if authorities so desire.

 

[Ty Cobb]

I have nothing against immigrants.  If it wasn't for immigrants I wouldn't be here.  I have a major problem with illegal immigrants!!!  Why would illegal immigrants have rights in America?  The Bill of Rights, and the rest of the constitution, was written by American's for American citizens.  If illegals want rights, protection, and all of the other benefits that come with America then become a citizen.  

[CardinalBacker]

3 minutes ago, Ty Cobb said:

I have nothing against immigrants.  If it wasn't for immigrants I wouldn't be here.  I have a major problem with illegal immigrants!!!  Why would illegal immigrants have rights in America?  The Bill of Rights, and the rest of the constitution, was written by American's for American citizens.  If illegals want rights, protection, and all of the other benefits that come with America then become a citizen.  

That's the problem... people who come here to work pouring concreted can't afford (in time or money) the process to citizenship. 

 

[Hagar]

Illegal immigration - allowing people to live entirely off the Government in perpetuity - even Obama phones, all a way of buying votes, most of it via tax payers money.   All examples of Democrats selling out hard working Americans to gain power.   It’s not done to help those folks, it’s done to help the Democrats.   

Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[Hagar]

8 minutes ago, CardinalBacker said:

That's the problem... people who come here to work pouring concreted can't afford (in time or money) the process to citizenship. 

 

The system was designed for someone to first gain citizenship, then  have the rights.   We need to establish equivalents of Ellis Island so these people can be vetted and become citizens.  To allow folks to just come in without vetting, without teaching them anything about the Constitution & laws of America, is a dangerous and reckless system.

[baddog]

Once they are found out to be illegal, when arrested, their rights are called Miranda. 

[SmashMouth]

3 hours ago, CardinalBacker said:

That's the problem... people who come here to work pouring concreted can't afford (in time or money) the process to citizenship. 

So change the process. I do t disagree with your premise. There still has to be a safe, fair and legal process that is adhered to. Open borders is not a safe or fair or legal process.

 

4 hours ago, CardinalBacker said:

That's weird... I don't remember reading that anywhere. That's good to know.  All of this time I never realized that illegal immigrants don't have

1.  The right to free speech

2.  The right to keep and bear arms

3.  No quartering of soldiers

4.  Freedom from unreasonable search and seizures

5.  The right to due process of law, freedom from self-incrimination, double jeopardy.

6.  The right to a speedy trial

7.   Right to a trial by jury

8.   Freedom from excessive bail, cruel and unusual punishments.

According to you, immigrants could be punished for speaking out against the government, searched without warrants, no rights of due process, no right to a trial, and tortured if authorities so desire.

 

Most, but not all of these rights apply to illegal immigrants. Like the right to bear arms. Their are limitations even on citizens of this particular right. 
 

But you are very correct - generally in the Bill of rights, people means people and not citizens. 

[Englebert]

9 hours ago, CardinalBacker said:

There's no decision to be made.... it was already given in the Bill of Rights.  You can quibble over what is meant by the word "people" in the phrase "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.'" Most illegal immigrants are here doing work that American Citizens won't do, for menial wages.  That community is the least likely to contact law enforcement when victimized, and therefore one of the most vulnerable to criminals.  

Conservatives and Republicans need to stop demonizing the immigrant population and figure out how to get them to vote Republican.  There's no reason why a God-fearing, hard-working, law-abiding, family-loving, financially conservative group of people should be voting Democrat, other than the fact that the Repubs don't want their votes. 

 

Yes, there is a decision to be made. I agree that people here illegally are afforded some basic rights. But are they afforded everything a legal person is afforded? Should a person here illegally be given the right to obtain a License to Carry permit? Or a driver's license? Or a identity card? If all laws apply to people regardless of status, shouldn't everyone be allowed Social Security, Obamacare, the right to vote, etc., etc., etc.

So there is a decision to be made: what laws apply to people and what laws apply to citizens. If Single Payer healthcare is implemented, should all "people" get free healthcare or should "citizens" get free healthcare? (I was laughing when I typed the word "free"...twice.) The whole point of this topic is exactly what decision is to be made. Open borders coinciding with free college, free healthcare, free monetary (State/Federal) assistance, etc. cannot stand. If no decision is to be made, where are we heading?

On a side note, I'm really surprised you sunk to stereotyping Conservative/Republicans. Very few (and none on this board that I have seen) demonize the immigrant population. Most want and are okay with LEGAL immigration. I don't know anyone that demonizes legal immigrants. And furthermore, I don't know of anyone that demonizes illegal immigrants. I know many who want to stop the flow of ILLEGAL immigrants. This is still a nation of laws. Very, very few "demonize" the illegal for being a person. I'm baffled as to why you channel an obvious liberal slander against Conservative/Republicans.

[CardinalBacker]

11 hours ago, Englebert said:

Yes, there is a decision to be made. I agree that people here illegally are afforded some basic rights. But are they afforded everything a legal person is afforded? Should a person here illegally be given the right to obtain a License to Carry permit? Or a driver's license? Or a identity card? If all laws apply to people regardless of status, shouldn't everyone be allowed Social Security, Obamacare, the right to vote, etc., etc., etc.

So there is a decision to be made: what laws apply to people and what laws apply to citizens. If Single Payer healthcare is implemented, should all "people" get free healthcare or should "citizens" get free healthcare? (I was laughing when I typed the word "free"...twice.) The whole point of this topic is exactly what decision is to be made. Open borders coinciding with free college, free healthcare, free monetary (State/Federal) assistance, etc. cannot stand. If no decision is to be made, where are we heading?

On a side note, I'm really surprised you sunk to stereotyping Conservative/Republicans. Very few (and none on this board that I have seen) demonize the immigrant population. Most want and are okay with LEGAL immigration. I don't know anyone that demonizes legal immigrants. And furthermore, I don't know of anyone that demonizes illegal immigrants. I know many who want to stop the flow of ILLEGAL immigrants. This is still a nation of laws. Very, very few "demonize" the illegal for being a person. I'm baffled as to why you channel an obvious liberal slander against Conservative/Republicans.

Four things need to happen simultaneously. 
1. The border secured.  We can’t fit 7 billion people inside our borders and give them all free healthcare, college education, food, housing and a smartphone  -no matter who they vote for.

2. A path to citizenship (with quotas, if necessary)  

3. Punishment for anyone employing an illegal. This should have happened a long time ago. 
4. Progressive access to benefits. You shouldn’t be directed towards benefits upon arrival. Supposedly in CA you are directed to sign up for food stamps, EBT, smart phones, housing, and registered to vote once you get here. How true that is, I don’t know. There should be no social services given to anyone here illegally IF there is a reasonable path to citizenship available. 
 

Most importantly, conservatives and republicans need to stop demonizing illegal immigrants. I don’t know of a single white or black kid willing to work as a carpenter, roofer, mason, laborer, body man, farm worker, concrete finisher, etc....  we need people willing to do those jobs, just like we always have. Republicans have the opportunity to win some of that Hispanic vote, not by changing basic principals (conservatism, faith, family, hard work), but by shutting up the xenophobes like y’all. 

[CardinalBacker]

15 hours ago, SmashMouth said:

So change the process. I do t disagree with your premise. There still has to be a safe, fair and legal process that is adhered to. Open borders is not a safe or fair or legal process.

 

Most, but not all of these rights apply to illegal immigrants. Like the right to bear arms. Their are limitations even on citizens of this particular right. 
 

But you are very correct - generally in the Bill of rights, people means people and not citizens. 

I hear what you’re saying. But your opinion isn’t specified anywhere. 
If Congress wants to pass a law stating that it’s a crime for illegals to possess a firearm, that’s okay... but my guess is that the NRA will fight that as they would any attack on the 2nd amendment. 

Some people don’t like immigrants, and arguments about illegal immigration give them a chance to speak out loudly. 

[SmashMouth]

3 hours ago, CardinalBacker said:

I hear what you’re saying. But your opinion isn’t specified anywhere. 
If Congress wants to pass a law stating that it’s a crime for illegals to possess a firearm, that’s okay... but my guess is that the NRA will fight that as they would any attack on the 2nd amendment. 

Some people don’t like immigrants, and arguments about illegal immigration give them a chance to speak out loudly. 

It’s not my opinion. It’s mere fact. There are some restrictions on firearms for illegal non-citizens just like there are for felons or those with mental disorders. 
My mom’s first husband, a marine, was killed in Viet Nam. His parents were illegal, but he was not. He was the father to my older sister who is half Mexican. I have no issue with immigrants whatsoever, and I am in agreement that the process is a disaster, both procedurally and cost wise. I was just stating that some but not all of the Bill of Rights pertain to non-citizens and illegal immigrants. Including restrictions on firearms. 
I do take exception to your comment about not knowing any white or black kids who are “willing to work as a carpenter, roofer, mason, laborer, body man, farm worker, concrete finisher, etc....  we need people willing to do those jobs, just like we always have.” I know literally hundreds of them.
 

Regardless, just because your willing to perform an undesirable task doesn’t give you the right to citizenship. I know you’re not saying that, but many do. 

[CardinalBacker]

1 hour ago, SmashMouth said:

It’s not my opinion. It’s mere fact. There are some restrictions on firearms for illegal non-citizens just like there are for felons or those with mental disorders. 
My mom’s first husband, a marine, was killed in Viet Nam. His parents were illegal, but he was not. He was the father to my older sister who is half Mexican. I have no issue with immigrants whatsoever, and I am in agreement that the process is a disaster, both procedurally and cost wise. I was just stating that some but not all of the Bill of Rights pertain to non-citizens and illegal immigrants. Including restrictions on firearms. 
I do take exception to your comment about not knowing any white or black kids who are “willing to work as a carpenter, roofer, mason, laborer, body man, farm worker, concrete finisher, etc....  we need people willing to do those jobs, just like we always have.” I know literally hundreds of them.
 

Regardless, just because your willing to perform an undesirable task doesn’t give you the right to citizenship. I know you’re not saying that, but many do. 

First off, I was wrong. 
 

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But court ruling in 2019 seemed to expand the rights (or at least protections) for immigrants. Basically stating that the state has to prove that the alien knew that they were breaking the law. 
 

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But you are mistaken. I know literally hundreds of kids.... none of which are currently working or even remotely interested in working in any of those crafts. You don’t know of a single white person that’s a roofer, drywall man, concrete finisher, crop picker, carpenter, carpet installer, etc.... and it’s not because anybody is beating them out of those jobs. They just won’t do it. 
 

My argument is not whether willingness to perform those tasks should equate to a right to citizenship. Instead, I’m pointing out that our economy would literally collapse within two weeks without their help. No homes built, no roads constructed, no one to wash dishes at your favorite restaurant. Anybody who claims otherwise is just lying to themselves. 
 

[baddog]

Ever heard of nepotism?

 Personally, I’ve done roofing, carpenter work, poured concrete, fencing, drywall...etc. Jack of all trades, master of none. The youth that refuse to do this type of work, blame that on the parents. Now, back to my first sentence.

[SmashMouth]

1 hour ago, CardinalBacker said:

But you are mistaken. I know literally hundreds of kids.... none of which are currently working or even remotely interested in working in any of those crafts. You don’t know of a single white person that’s a roofer, drywall man, concrete finisher, crop picker, carpenter, carpet installer, etc.... and it’s not because anybody is beating them out of those jobs. They just won’t do it. 

I think we are on the same basic page, but I’m not mistaken. I know a large number of black & white roofers, form carpenters, finishers, drywall guys and painters. I will grant you, I know as many or more Hispanics that hold those jobs too. My son painted houses, spread sod and shucked shingles for the last 2 summers. He doesn’t have a choice. Daddy said...

[baddog]

23 minutes ago, SmashMouth said:

I think we are on the same basic page, but I’m not mistaken. I know a large number of black & white roofers, form carpenters, finishers, drywall guys and painters. I will grant you, I know as many or more Hispanics that hold those jobs too. My son painted houses, spread sod and shucked shingles for the last 2 summers. He doesn’t have a choice. Daddy said...

Like I said, blame the parents. Labor intensive jobs build character. 

[Englebert]

10 hours ago, CardinalBacker said:

Four things need to happen simultaneously. 
1. The border secured.  We can’t fit 7 billion people inside our borders and give them all free healthcare, college education, food, housing and a smartphone  -no matter who they vote for.

2. A path to citizenship (with quotas, if necessary)  

3. Punishment for anyone employing an illegal. This should have happened a long time ago. 
4. Progressive access to benefits. You shouldn’t be directed towards benefits upon arrival. Supposedly in CA you are directed to sign up for food stamps, EBT, smart phones, housing, and registered to vote once you get here. How true that is, I don’t know. There should be no social services given to anyone here illegally IF there is a reasonable path to citizenship available. 
 

Most importantly, conservatives and republicans need to stop demonizing illegal immigrants. I don’t know of a single white or black kid willing to work as a carpenter, roofer, mason, laborer, body man, farm worker, concrete finisher, etc....  we need people willing to do those jobs, just like we always have. Republicans have the opportunity to win some of that Hispanic vote, not by changing basic principals (conservatism, faith, family, hard work), but by shutting up the xenophobes like y’all. 

I'm baffled as to why you keep saying Republicans are demonizing illegals. That is simply false. Some do, most do not. If someone takes up residence in your house, I'm sure you will do everything possible to get them out. That doesn't me you hate them or want to demonize them. That is the way most Republicans feel. Saying you want them out doesn't equate to demonization.

The topic is on what laws/benefits apply to illegals. I'm not sure why you keep bringing legal immigrants to the forefront. Conflating to make a point? I guess Republicans should pander to illegals if we give them the right to vote.

So let's try again. Which laws apply and which benefits should be afforded illegal (again, illegal) people residing "illegally" in this country?

I would put your number 3 point to Point number one. I strongly agree with this point, and agree it should have happened a long time ago. In fact, I think if this point was enforced, every other point would be mute. But since this is not being enforced, topics like this must exist.

I don't agree with a path to citizenship. Personally I would like to pass a law that says that if you get caught residing in the United States illegally then you will be deported and you are permanently ineligible to ever become a U.S. citizen.

I don't agree with any benefits for illegals. Ever. Come in legally and you can get them.

 

[CardinalBacker]

3 hours ago, Englebert said:

I'm baffled as to why you keep saying Republicans are demonizing illegals. That is simply false. Some do, most do not. If someone takes up residence in your house, I'm sure you will do everything possible to get them out. That doesn't me you hate them or want to demonize them. That is the way most Republicans feel. Saying you want them out doesn't equate to demonization.

The topic is on what laws/benefits apply to illegals. I'm not sure why you keep bringing legal immigrants to the forefront. Conflating to make a point? I guess Republicans should pander to illegals if we give them the right to vote.

So let's try again. Which laws apply and which benefits should be afforded illegal (again, illegal) people residing "illegally" in this country?

I would put your number 3 point to Point number one. I strongly agree with this point, and agree it should have happened a long time ago. In fact, I think if this point was enforced, every other point would be mute. But since this is not being enforced, topics like this must exist.

I don't agree with a path to citizenship. Personally I would like to pass a law that says that if you get caught residing in the United States illegally then you will be deported and you are permanently ineligible to ever become a U.S. citizen.

I don't agree with any benefits for illegals. Ever. Come in legally and you can get them.

 

Lol. While I appreciate your short-sighted point of view, here’s the problem. Immigration isn’t going to stop. I’ve heard about immigration reform since I was kid, but it has never happened... news flash... it’s probably not going to happen. 
Therefore, you can be the party that welcomes immigrants and secures their votes for generations, or you can be the “build the wall” party that accuses immigrants of being “rapists and murderers” and alienate those voters for generations to come and dooming themselves to losing every single general election for decades. Which do you choose?

[Englebert]

Short-sighted? Wow, your analytical skills are not up to snuff. How in the world do you conclude that I think illegal immigration is going to stop. You must have concluded that or you wouldn't have made that statement. That's flailing wildly. Short sightedness is protecting/coddling a group that has defied your laws and expecting them to love/respect/admire you in return.

Like you, I've also heard about immigration reform since I was a kid. Neither party will do anything about it, which I'm sure you are well aware of. I've been saying for twenty years or more that if you fine/jail the citizens that hire the illegals, you can practically end the problem. If you take away the incentives for illegals to come here, they won't come. Increasing incentives increases immigration. I don't think that people here, new or old, want to be a part of a country that selectively enforces their laws. That is exactly why many of them come here...fairness. So which do I choose...the nation of laws..enforced equally. Which sadly, is far from what is happening. Do you actually consider appeasement a viable solution? How do you think those negatively affected feel when people defying U.S. laws are coddled?

Let's keep on the theme of short-sightedness. Well maybe not really short-sightedness, but along those lines. I'm still baffled, and you haven't explained your rationale, as to why you think Conservatives/Republicans demonize immigrants. You might have a valid reason. I would sure love to hear it.