Same teams over and over

[SmashMouth]

2 minutes ago, mrtomcat said:

thank you brethren.  i'm in as long as you arent liberal 

We are good then. 

[Reagan]

1 hour ago, mrtomcat said:

this guy has a hard on for me.    I'm wrong again.  I should have taken your class on "how to build a program" when i graduated from Warren in 74.

Just because it hasn't happened yet in Warren doesn't mean it has never happened elsewhere.  I have given you examples of teams in the past that were, my opinion, equal to or even less than Warren.  But, I will agree with you 100%, Warren will not get an elite coach.  But, again, at the time, neither did Carthage, Stephenville, and I'll give you another one, Celina, when they hired GA Moore and eventually won 6 State Titles while NOT winning one before him.  Coach Moore won one, left, came back and won 5 more.  Luck?

Warren has only been playing football for 70 years.  It took Carthage 84 years and it also took Stephenville 84 years to win their one of many State Titles.  Warren just has to hire the right coach.  But, again, that's a craps shoot.  Surratt didn't have an elite history when he got to Carthage.  But -- he EARNED it by winning his 8th State Title!  Something no one before him was able to do.  You think that was pure luck?

[Tiger33]

9 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Just because it hasn't happened yet in Warren doesn't mean it has never happened elsewhere.  I have given you examples of teams in the past that were, my opinion, equal to or even less than Warren.  But, I will agree with you 100%, Warren will not get an elite coach.  But, again, at the time, neither did Carthage, Stephenville, and I'll give you another one, Celina, when they hired GA Moore and eventually won 6 State Titles while NOT winning one before him.  Coach Moore won one, left, came back and won 5 more.  Luck?

Warren has only been playing football for 70 years.  It took Carthage 84 years and it also took Stephenville 84 years to win their one of many State Titles.  Warren just has to hire the right coach.  But, agian, that's a craps shoot.  Surratt didn't have an elite history when he got to Carthage.  But -- he EARNED it by winning his 8th State Title!  Something no one before him was able to do.  You think that was pure luck?

If you read books. GA Moore book is a good one. Him going between PP and Celina he even says in his book that he had less talented teams winning state championships. His son just passed passed away. 

[Tx Wb]

On 1/27/2021 at 5:55 PM, purpleeagle said:

Tired of your team having a losing season. The quickest way to eliminate that problem is to move to a town like WO-S, Aledo, Carthage, Longview or Cedar Hill.

Why longview .Two state championships in 50 or more yesrs

[purpleeagle]

Longview is still a winning program. 

[JaspD55]

On 1/28/2021 at 12:59 PM, Reagan said:

Just because it hasn't happened yet in Warren doesn't mean it has never happened elsewhere.  I have given you examples of teams in the past that were, my opinion, equal to or even less than Warren.  But, I will agree with you 100%, Warren will not get an elite coach.  But, again, at the time, neither did Carthage, Stephenville, and I'll give you another one, Celina, when they hired GA Moore and eventually won 6 State Titles while NOT winning one before him.  Coach Moore won one, left, came back and won 5 more.  Luck?

Warren has only been playing football for 70 years.  It took Carthage 84 years and it also took Stephenville 84 years to win their one of many State Titles.  Warren just has to hire the right coach.  But, again, that's a craps shoot.  Surratt didn't have an elite history when he got to Carthage.  But -- he EARNED it by winning his 8th State Title!  Something no one before him was able to do.  You think that was pure luck?

Takes more than a coach. Just ask Jerry jones? Think about it Jerry Jones, Jimmy Johnson, Norv Turner, Dave Wannstedt, developed probably one of,  if not the best team in the history of the NFL. But not one of these guys listed , ever made it back to the top again by themselves. The Cowboys success was done with a combination of factors. Even Barry Switzer won a super bowl, and could have easily won in 94 and 96, and all he did was sit around with the payers ,drink beer and watch.lol 

[Tx Wb]

11 hours ago, purpleeagle said:

Longview is still a winning program. 

What do you consider a winning program. 

[Hagar]

Imo, as Yogi Berra would say, Coaching is 80% of it and tradition is 50%.  A few unique Coaches have the knowledge and charisma (for lack of a better word) to get a 120% out of the kids, and winning begets winning.   A top tier Coach will usually get the cream of the crop in the school.  They want to be a part of it.   Most schools, not so much.

For instance, about 40 years ago, when my son was playing 8th Gd football at Vidor, there were two teams.  He was the smallest lineman on either team.  Both were undefeated until playing each other the last game of season.   Seems like in the 9th, the other team lost one or two games.  By the time my son was a Sr, he was the biggest (235), and only one other lineman was still playing.   The others had all quit, and I mean some big kids.   They won one game his Sr year.  Would have been in the playoffs if all those others had played.   Why quit?  No tradition for starters, and I often wondered if the young Coaches in Jr High were better than the head HS Coach.

[oldschool2]

On 1/31/2021 at 7:50 AM, Hagar said:

Imo, as Yogi Berra would say, Coaching is 80% of it and tradition is 50%.  A few unique Coaches have the knowledge and charisma (for lack of a better word) to get a 120% out of the kids, and winning begets winning.   A top tier Coach will usually get the cream of the crop in the school.  They want to be a part of it.   Most schools, not so much.

For instance, about 40 years ago, when my son was playing 8th Gd football at Vidor, there were two teams.  He was the smallest lineman on either team.  Both were undefeated until playing each other the last game of season.   Seems like in the 9th, the other team lost one or two games.  By the time my son was a Sr, he was the biggest (235), and only one other lineman was still playing.   The others had all quit, and I mean some big kids.   They won one game his Sr year.  Would have been in the playoffs if all those others had played.   Why quit?  No tradition for starters, and I often wondered if the young Coaches in Jr High were better than the head HS Coach.

Coaching is nowhere near 80% of it.  That said, good coaches can get more out of bad teams than bad coaches can.  Still need talent.  Coincidentally, bad/mediocre coaches can have success at a place with great players.  You see it every year.  If coaching was 80% of it, the same coaches would win it all or get close every year.  Yes.. I know.. Carthage, Aledo, etc..  Not taking anything away from either coach, but I'd bet good money that a lot of coaches in the state could have similar success right now.  The cultures have faithfully bought into doing whatever is necessary for both programs to be successful in football.  WOS and Newton are great examples of relatively poor communities making deep runs.  They also happen to have more natural athletic ability than just about everyone they play.  That matters.

[Reagan]

2 hours ago, oldschool2 said:

Coaching is nowhere near 80% of it.  That said, good coaches can get more out of bad teams than bad coaches can.  Still need talent.  Coincidentally, bad/mediocre coaches can have success at a place with great players.  You see it every year.  If coaching was 80% of it, the same coaches would win it all or get close every year.  Yes.. I know.. Carthage, Aledo, etc..  Not taking anything away from either coach, but I'd bet good money that a lot of coaches in the state could have similar success right now.  The cultures have faithfully bought into doing whatever is necessary for both programs to be successful in football.  WOS and Newton are great examples of relatively poor communities making deep runs.  They also happen to have more natural athletic ability than just about everyone they play.  That matters.

It's ironic, though, that nothing happened before these coaches at Aledo and Carthage showed up.  So, I would venture to say that these said coaches made the culture for these teams.  Plus, Stephenville was pretty bad until Briles showed up.  All coincidences?  

[oldschool2]

4 minutes ago, Reagan said:

It's ironic, though, that nothing happened before these coaches at Aledo and Carthage showed up.  So, I would venture to say that these said coaches made the culture for these teams.  Plus, Stephenville was pretty bad until Briles showed up.  All coincidences?  

There's no question that examples exist.  These two men have successfully created the greatest high school football dynasties to have existed.  Culture helps to get wins over close games or games in which winning experience is necessary.  No doubt.  Don't, however, act for one second like they aren't loaded with talent.  Also loaded with kids/parents that would love to have real estate within their school district.  Are they the best coaches in the game?  Quite possibly.  Definitely on paper.  Could they go elsewhere and have the same success?  Multiple state championship success?  That's where I'll gladly debate you.  Where you provide examples of unmatched success,  I could provide countless examples of coaches that won it.. maybe even more than once.. and then never got close again for the rest of their career.  Can you explain that?  The only thing that changes every year is players and schedules. 

Briles is another great example.  Coaching definitely matters when talent is similar.  

[Guest mrtomcat]

give me culture over coaching

give me athletes over coaching

give me family's with $100 + salaries over coaching

and then...........give me coaching

[Guest mrtomcat]

Just now, mrtomcat said:

give me culture over coaching

give me athletes over coaching

give me family's with $100 + salaries over coaching

and then...........give me coaching

what are things that lack in southeast texas,  alex ?  for $1,000 

[Reagan]

38 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

There's no question that examples exist.  These two men have successfully created the greatest high school football dynasties to have existed.  Culture helps to get wins over close games or games in which winning experience is necessary.  No doubt.  Don't, however, act for one second like they aren't loaded with talent.  Also loaded with kids/parents that would love to have real estate within their school district.  Are they the best coaches in the game?  Quite possibly.  Definitely on paper.  Could they go elsewhere and have the same success?  Multiple state championship success?  That's where I'll gladly debate you.  Where you provide examples of unmatched success,  I could provide countless examples of coaches that won it.. maybe even more than once.. and then never got close again for the rest of their career.  Can you explain that?  The only thing that changes every year is players and schedules. 

Briles is another great example.  Coaching definitely matters when talent is similar.  

So, for the previous 84 years before Surratt showed up, Carthage never had any talent?   And how about the previous 52 years before Buchanan arrived, no talent ever showed up there either?   When the right coach arrives, the culture changes.  The students, the parents and the city all fall in line.  Everybody loves being a part of a winner.  Not going to happen with a losing program.  

[Reagan]

24 minutes ago, mrtomcat said:

give me culture over coaching

give me athletes over coaching

give me family's with $100 + salaries over coaching

and then...........give me coaching

Answer me this:  How can you ever have good culture with bad coaching?

[oldschool2]

6 minutes ago, Reagan said:

So, for the previous 84 years before Surratt showed up, Carthage never had any talent?   And how about the previous 52 years before Buchanan arrived, no talent ever showed up there either?   When the right coach arrives, the culture changes.  The students, the parents and the city all fall in line.  Everybody loves being a part of a winner.  Not going to happen with a losing program.  

Coaching + talent + appropriate level of competition = success.  All three are necessary.  Surratt isn't winning ANY state championships at a vast majority of Texas high schools.  Surratt isn't winning ANY state championships in 5A/6A with the same teams he's had in Carthage's classifications.  Disclaimer: I know that's an unrealistic task, but an example of how the level of competition comes into affect.  Every classification year teams are made into winners and losers based on those cutoffs.  Every other year the same coach, with the same players can move down and dominate or move up and struggle.  Literally every re-classification. 

[Guest mrtomcat]

57 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Answer me this:  How can you ever have good culture with bad coaching?

Not sure on that.  Its not about a bad coach.  Its about having things in place, for an "excellent" coach to get the most out of.

Without those things.....Surratt wins district titles (not rings)

[Reagan]

2 minutes ago, mrtomcat said:

Not sure on that.  Its not about a bad coach.  Its about having things in place, for an "excellent" coach to get the most out of.

Without those things.....Surratt wins district titles (not rings)

So why no rings the previous 84 years before Surratt arrived?  Honest question!

[Guest mrtomcat]

2 minutes ago, Reagan said:

So why no rings the previous 84 years before Surratt arrived?  Honest question!

I dont know.  I dont live there.  Did the town grow into what it is eventually?   Did it go after the facilities before Surratt or after?  Did it start winning in multiple sports and that success lead to tradition over time?  I dont ever remember Carthage being bad in sports in my lifetime, so that has to be stand for something.  The topic of this thread is "same teams over and over" --- so to answer your question.   I dont know why Carthage never won it all before Scott.  Maybe its just timing....I mean, there can only be one champ and by God this is Texas, where there are a few hundred in each classification - so just to get to the dance is HUGE.  Not to take the convo a different direction, but when did the black community join in at carthage isd?  Thats been a central part to their success over time as well.  OIL vastly changed that community in the 80's - 90's from everything I read.  I think its a culmuniation of things.....coming together at the right time cap'd off by one of the most legendary coaches to ever coach being at the helm.

[Reagan]

2 hours ago, oldschool2 said:

There's no question that examples exist.  These two men have successfully created the greatest high school football dynasties to have existed.  Culture helps to get wins over close games or games in which winning experience is necessary.  No doubt.  Don't, however, act for one second like they aren't loaded with talent.  Also loaded with kids/parents that would love to have real estate within their school district.  Are they the best coaches in the game?  Quite possibly.  Definitely on paper.  Could they go elsewhere and have the same success?  Multiple state championship success?  That's where I'll gladly debate you.  Where you provide examples of unmatched success,  I could provide countless examples of coaches that won it.. maybe even more than once.. and then never got close again for the rest of their career.  Can you explain that?  The only thing that changes every year is players and schedules. 

Briles is another great example.  Coaching definitely matters when talent is similar.  

GA Moore:  Won a Title at Celina.  Went to Pilot Point and won 2 Titles.  Went back to Celina and won 5 more Titles.  Oh, and BTW -- Celina and Pilot Point never won a Title before Moore arrived.  

[SmashMouth]

7 hours ago, mrtomcat said:

Not sure on that.  Its not about a bad coach.  Its about having things in place, for an "excellent" coach to get the most out of.

Without those things.....Surratt wins district titles (not rings)

🙄

[EAGLEFOREVER]

16 hours ago, mrtomcat said:

give me culture over coaching

give me athletes over coaching

give me family's with $100 + salaries over coaching

and then...........give me coaching

who do you think instills the culture, who do you think teaches the kids how to get the most out of their athletic ability and hones that ability. From your point of view you don't need a coach. You need mom and dads that tell their kids do what the coach wants and stop running to the super and telling him the coach is to hard and my son needs to be quarterback.

[AledoAlumni]

18 hours ago, mrtomcat said:

give me athletes over coaching

I'll take the good coaching over athletes every single time. And twice on Fridays. 

[oldschool2]

17 hours ago, Reagan said:

GA Moore:  Won a Title at Celina.  Went to Pilot Point and won 2 Titles.  Went back to Celina and won 5 more Titles.  Oh, and BTW -- Celina and Pilot Point never won a Title before Moore arrived.  

I said there were examples.  Make a list of the coaches that won it once and never got close again.  Or even twice.  You're obviously not understanding what I'm saying. 

[Setx fan]

Talent, will to win, and good coaching make good teams. All that other community wealth, community support, and tradition or whatever helps but it does no good if you don’t at least have a couple talented players and a good coach. At the bigger schools it’s more about coaching. I say that because I think it would be hard to find a school with 2000 plus students and no talent. At the smaller schools it’s more about the players. I say that because there are probably a lot of schools with 200-400 students who regularly have close to 0 talent and no coach would be able to change that. Either way if your goal is to win championships you need talent, will to win, and good coaching.