Murder? Or Self-Defense?

[bullets13]

https://kfdm.com/news/local/developing-man-charged-with-murder-in-shooting-death-at-beaumont-car-wash

[bullets13]

In an article I read yesterday it stated that the victim pulled out a knife before being shot.  If that’s the case I don’t know that the murder charge will stick. 

[SmashMouth]

Simply not enough information to make a determination…other than the charge and a million dollar bond. 

[Hagar]

IF the guy pulled a knife, I’m thinking self defense..  Thing is, without knowing the whole story, it’s impossible to call.  

 

[BMTSoulja1]

Sad situation on both sides.  I don’t know neither the victim or the perp, but several friends on social media knows both.  

[SmashMouth]

21 minutes ago, BMTSoulja1 said:

Sad situation on both sides.  I don’t know neither the victim or the perp, but several friends on social media knows both.  

What’s the scoop according to your friends? No info available from the media. 

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

25 minutes ago, BMTSoulja1 said:

Sad situation on both sides.  I don’t know neither the victim or the perp, but several friends on social media knows both.  

I remember his face from a previous matter. 

[bullets13]

7 hours ago, Hagar said:

IF the guy pulled a knife, I’m thinking self defense..  Thing is, without knowing the whole story, it’s impossible to call.  

 

One thing I thought about later was this:  say the shooter attacks the victim, the victim pulls the knife in self-defense, then the shooter pulls the gun and shoots him.  You can’t claim self-defense if you’re the original aggressor.  We’ll see if more facts come out.  

[Derf Nosneb]

Move along, nothing to see here, BOBC...

[tvc184]

1 hour ago, bullets13 said:

One thing I thought about later was this:  say the shooter attacks the victim, the victim pulls the knife in self-defense, then the shooter pulls the gun and shoots him.  You can’t claim self-defense if you’re the original aggressor.  We’ll see if more facts come out.  

Yes, just like the recent case in Silsbee.  You cannot willingly go into an action that breaks the law and then when it turns bad for you, claim self-defense… in most cases. Now if you abandon the encounter completely and in the process the other person later retaliates, you would likely have a good legal defense.

Of course a lawyer will argue for the defendant’s self-defense. That is the lawyer’s job. I am really going by how I read the law and how I applied it for investigating and filing cases for almost 4 decades.

In a trial, both sides will present their case to the jury. After the trial and after both sides make their closing arguments, the judge will read the charge to the jury. Part of that charge will be the applicable law. It will be up to the jury to determine if a criminal act can be proven and/or if a defense was legal under the way the law is written. 

[thetragichippy]

Based on the article, the victim was laying by his vehicle......That is not a great start to self defense......based on the only fact from the article.

[tvc184]

3 hours ago, thetragichippy said:

Based on the article, the victim was laying by his vehicle......That is not a great start to self defense......based on the only fact from the article.

Way too many what ifs on this one.

Did the victim reach for a knife after the guy pulled a gun on him as a last resort? Did he pull a knife, get out of the car and to take a step toward the shooter who then fired as a last resort for himself? Did the shooter walk all the way across a long parking lot toward the victim with the pistol displayed? Were threats made by either or both? Did the victim get shot several feet away and manage to stagger back to his car before he fell which is why he was at that location?

From my experience, when it is clear-cut self-defense or at least it appears to be, the police normally do not make an arrest. In a case like this kind it does not necessarily mean guilty. Not because we all know the law says so but when in doubt, an arrest might be appropriate. The police might be kind of like, we are not real sure so we are going to go ahead arrest this guy.
 

The legal standards for an arrest for murder is only that you intentionally or knowingly killed another person. Any issue of self-defense by law says it can be brought up in court. Basically you could have video and 20 eye witnesses showing it is clearly self-defense in a situation and the police can still legally arrest you. A DA might decide not to prosecute and a grand jury might decide not to indict but an arrest is completely legal.

I have only a suspicion that witnesses tipped  the scale in favor of an arrest at this time.

[tvc184]

Also note that the Texas law, a claim of self-defense has to be proven as not true beyond a reasonable doubt. When self-defense is claimed, it adds another element to what the prosecutor has to approve. Basically a person does not have to prove self-defense for it to be legal. The DA has to prove that it was not legal.

[thetragichippy]

3 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

Also note that the Texas law, a claim of self-defense has to be proven as not true beyond a reasonable doubt. When self-defense is claimed, it adds another element to what the prosecutor has to approve. Basically a person does not have to prove self-defense for it to be legal. The DA has to prove that it was not legal.

My greatest fear of carrying a gun is being forced to use it.  As you stated above, the "what if's" have me almost paranoid. 

The people that say they would have no problem shooting someone, have not thought it out.....IMO

[SmashMouth]

10 minutes ago, thetragichippy said:

My greatest fear of carrying a gun is being forced to use it.  As you stated above, the "what if's" have me almost paranoid. 

The people that say they would have no problem shooting someone, have not thought it out.....IMO

I agree. Although if it’s to protect my wife , kids or grandkids, I would not hesitate. 

[thetragichippy]

6 minutes ago, SmashMouth said:

I agree. Although if it’s to protect my wife , kids or grandkids, I would not hesitate. 

I like to think I wouldn't hesitate....but it's the knowing "when" for me. Too early it could be deemed murder, too late and you become the victim. 

[SmashMouth]

1 hour ago, thetragichippy said:

I like to think I wouldn't hesitate....but it's the knowing "when" for me. Too early it could be deemed murder, too late and you become the victim. 

I understand the conundrum. I’m just saying, to keep them safe, I will sort out the particulars later. If they’re stealing my lawnmower, I’m gonna let them walk…no matter what. If I’m afraid for my family’s life, I’m gonna shoot to kill without hesitation. Even if it means prison. I’ve thought about that instance many many times. I am resolved to it. That’s the biggest reason I even carry a gun. 

[AggiesAreWe]

I'm 58 years old. Never needed to carry before and don't need to carry now.

Carry on.

[SmashMouth]

1 hour ago, AggiesAreWe said:

I'm 58 years old. Never needed to carry before and don't need to carry now.

Carry on.

I hope you don’t ever need to rely on a firearm for your safety. I hope I don’t either.  I’m not willing to take that chance when I don’t have to though. I also wear my seatbelt. Never needed it so far…

[BMTSoulja1]

23 hours ago, SmashMouth said:

What’s the scoop according to your friends? No info available from the media. 

No info except one guy pulled a knife and the other retaliated with a gun.  That and the usual, ‘free my Patna’ and RIP….

[thetragichippy]

34 minutes ago, BMTSoulja1 said:

No info except one guy pulled a knife and the other retaliated with a gun.  That and the usual, ‘free my Patna’ and RIP….

So unnecessary….smh 

[BMTSoulja1]

44 minutes ago, thetragichippy said:

So unnecessary….smh 

Tell me about it.  It makes me sick…

[tvc184]

14 hours ago, SmashMouth said:

I agree. Although if it’s to protect my wife , kids or grandkids, I would not hesitate. 

Hesitation depends on the circumstances. Is someone is coming at you with a knife and getting close? Sure, that was a fairly easy decision.

I have been faced with life and death decisions with a gun in my hand many times. Some of those times I could have lawfully (in my opinion) killed a person. I hesitated several times and although I am fairly certain I would have been cleared, I’m glad that I did not kill someone. I have also pulled the trigger on someone.

Sometimes it was a clear choice but most of the times it is not. The only time I have pulled a trigger pointing at someone, about one second before I pulled the trigger I did not know I was going to shoot. 

[tvc184]

6 hours ago, BMTSoulja1 said:

No info except one guy pulled a knife and the other retaliated with a gun.  That and the usual, ‘free my Patna’ and RIP….

I always talk about the what if scenarios but your comment made me think of another.

What if…

I have read so many comments about the guy had a knife or may have so it had to be self-defense and blah blah blah. 

but what if…

Let’s say the guy did pull a knife, maybe in self-defense, maybe not. Let’s say the guy with a gun did not have it with him. He has the right to stand his ground (maybe) but what if he disengaged from the encounter, went to his car good distance away and then returned with a gun and shot the victim? Does self-defense or stand your ground mean you can go to another location and get a deadly weapon and return to kill a person when you were far enough away that you were no longer in danger?

I can see a situation similar to that. What is the victim felt like he was about to be assaulted? What did he pulled out a knife as a threat just to keep the other guy away? The shooter left then he returned with a gun and shot the guy out of anger.  I would call that murder.

The Texas Penal Code actually addresses that issue. It says it is lawful to display a deadly weapon and not be considered aggravated assault (a threat while displaying a deadly weapon) if they displaying was in self-defense and the intent was to create the apprehension they deadly force would be used if needed. Basically the law says if you have to pull your weapon, it is lawful to do so if a reasonable person in your position would have done the same thing.

Still without having any clue what happened, I can see cases where the guy that pulled a knife, even if he pulled it first, did so lawfully and the guy that got a gun and shot him committed a crime.

[tvc184]

And just in case someone actually wants to see the law that I was talking about (and maybe wants to go argue with people on Facebook 😂😂😂), for your viewing pleasure:

CHAPTER 9 (COVERS SELF DEFENSE)

SUBCHAPTER A. GENERAL PROVISIONS

Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE.

The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.