P.a. Isd requiring mask and the Bible in public schools

[tvc184]

4 minutes ago, LumRaiderFan said:

The "being right" I am talking about is not in my mind only.  There have been lots of issues that have been legal in the past but weren't "right".

I understand you put a lot of stock in the law just because it is the law and because of your background.  Laws have to make sense in order for me to have respect for them, not simply because it is the law.  Over 50,000,000 innocents dead since R v W...all neat and legal.

Men have gotten it wrong many times in the past and continue to do so and I believe the main reason is we have purged God out of our decision making.

 

No, I put a lot of stock in the Constitution because I believe it. There are plenty of laws that I completely disagree with and have no faith in whatsoever.

[tvc184]

….. and my background has nothing to do with it. I don’t think you have to be in law-enforcement to believe that the Constitution should be upheld. My opinion did not change when I was almost 30 years old and was sworn into office. My knowledge has considerably. 

[LumRaiderFan]

Just now, tvc184 said:

No, I put a lot of stock in the Constitution because I believe it. There are plenty of laws that I completely disagree with and have no faith in whatsoever.

I put a lot of stock in it as well, it's one of a kind.  It also should never go without questioning, if it did, we would still have slavery and women couldn't vote.

I don't think we're that far apart.

[LumRaiderFan]

2 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

….. and my background has nothing to do with it. I don’t think you have to be in law-enforcement to believe that the Constitution should be upheld. My opinion did not change when I was almost 30 years old and was sworn into office. My knowledge has considerably. 

Upheld, yes, and modified/ratified when wrong.

[mat]

Our great country is based on the constitution. The problem is over the years the constitution has been warped depending on the interpretation of the sitting SC justices at the the time. Our country's downfall and  potential demise is allowing the constitution to trump the word of God. 

[bullets13]

1 hour ago, 5GallonBucket said:

Why does the process of swearing in take place with one hand on the BIBLE

It's tradition.  Several presidents have not done so.  

[bullets13]

23 hours ago, 5GallonBucket said:

That’s because people didn’t want to hear the truth because it went against their lifestyle

like the lifestyle of being a lesser person because you're black?  of not being allowed to marry people of another race?  Of getting less and lower opportunities at jobs, education, and pretty much everything else in this country based on your skin color?  it was good white Christians who perpetrated that belief for about 180 years.  There are lots of people who are still alive today who weren't allowed to attend certain schools or go into certain places because of the color of their skin.  So let's quit pretending that Christian morality was making the world a whole lot better place 50 years ago.  Racism and discrimination are not nearly the problem they were a few decades ago, and people on the left do use them like a weapon, but that doesn't change the fact that they were both fully a part of the white, Christian belief system back when things were "so much better in this country."

[bullets13]

23 hours ago, LumRaiderFan said:

So we haven't allowed other religions in this country since it was formed?

you want your grandkid's schools playing those other religion's prayers on the loud speaker every morning?  

[bullets13]

23 hours ago, LumRaiderFan said:

Exactly right, the excuse that somehow Christianity is forced on folks is not true.

A preacher preaches that homosexuality or adultery is wrong and all of a sudden they are guilty of wanting to infringe on folk's lifestyle.  Nope.

What will happen as weak Christians remain silent is the Muslims will slowly grow (sure can't offend anyone by calling out their beliefs...other than Christians) and when there are enough numbers, you'll see a group that has no problem infringing on a lifestyle they disagree with.

That's not even remotely what I'm talking about.  What does a preacher preaching about something in church have to do with forcing people to listen to/participate in Christian activities at government-sponsored (school) events?

[LumRaiderFan]

6 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

you want your grandkid's schools playing those other religion's prayers on the loud speaker every morning?  

Over the alternative of no prayer, yes.

I have confidence my God would win the battle for young minds.

[LumRaiderFan]

2 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

That's not even remotely what I'm talking about.  What does a preacher preaching about something in church have to do with forcing people to listen to/participate in Christian activities at government-sponsored (school) events?

Who is forcing anyone to participate?  

[bullets13]

3 hours ago, tvc184 said:

Constitutionally there is absolutely something wrong with it. I find some humor that  people fall back on constitutional rights until it goes against one of their beliefs.

I have the right to freedom of speech!

I have the right to own firearms!

I have the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures!

i am not to keen on the freedom of religion though….

This is exactly it.  Christians want the right to religious freedom, the right to practice that freedom at the expense of the rights of anyone that doesn't have a choice but to hear it, and the right to decide when and where other religions are allowed to practice their own "religious freedom".  

[bullets13]

9 minutes ago, LumRaiderFan said:

Who is forcing anyone to participate?  

I hate Christmas music.  My wife has already started playing it in the house.  Does me not singing along (participating) mean that I am not being affected in any way by the Christmas music?  If you get a new neighbor who has a habit of blaring rap music at 2 AM, that should be his freedom, right?  If you're not singing along, you're not having to participate.

[LumRaiderFan]

28 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

I hate Christmas music.  My wife has already started playing it in the house.  Does me not singing along (participating) mean that I am not being affected in any way by the Christmas music?  If you get a new neighbor who has a habit of blaring rap music at 2 AM, that should be his freedom, right?  If you're not singing along, you're not having to participate.

🤦‍♂️

[LumRaiderFan]

35 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

This is exactly it.  Christians want the right to religious freedom, the right to practice that freedom at the expense of the rights of anyone that doesn't have a choice but to hear it, and the right to decide when and where other religions are allowed to practice their own "religious freedom".  

Explain more about this...provide all these examples of me as a Christian, forcing my views on anyone or not allowing them to express their views.

[tvc184]

This topic has spun way off of the PAISD mask mandate but as long as we are talking religion in school….

I have see opinions repeated several times that when they removed prayer from schools, our problems started. If your child is waiting to get to school to find prayer, your problems  started way before that. I don’t understand how you can be a Christian or any other faith and be a true believer but when you get to school, if they don’t lead you in prayer, you have somehow lost the faith. “I am 18 years old and have been a Christian and been baptized into my church but my teacher did not lead me in prayer today so I am now at atheist”? No……. 

As far as prayer in school, the Supreme Court has never outlawed prayer at public schools as claimed by some people. That is a myth. What they have banned was the government leading the prayer. One of the big cases in religious history was from the Wisconsin Supreme Court. It originally had no bearing on the rest of the country but it was cited by the United States Supreme Court later. In that case it was Christian versus Christian. The school led prayer from the King James Bible but Catholic parents protesting because the Catholic Bible was not allowed. Therein lies the problem with the government, a public school district, determining what you hear. It was an atheist against Christians, it was them against themselves.

In another case a Jewish parent brought suit. The children were told to put their hands together in prayer at the beginning of a class. The father who brought the suit said he had no problem with the Christian faith and their praying and he believes in prayer also. His complaint was that in the Jewish faith they don’t put their hands together to pray. Maybe they cannot force his son to place at hands together but that would make him an outcast an open to ridicule because the government has now determined what prayers they would say.

But by Supreme Court rulings, can students pray at school? Certainly. They can pray privately or they can meet in non-classroom time in groups and pray. Being on school property has no bearing. The prayer cannot be led, encouraged nor discouraged by the school. Some schools have wrongfully attempted to stop such  prayer and the Supreme Court has upheld that right to pray at school. The popular way at one time  of doing so was meet at the flagpole. If there were students who wished  to pray, they got together before or after class. Schools cannot restrict religious writings at school such as an essay in class.

Some schools mistakenly believe(d) that if you write anything religious in a class assignment  it is unconstitutional but that has been ruled incorrect. If the assignment in English class is to write an essay on McBeth, then the essay would have to be on that topic. If the essay was for example on anything that interests you, the school would be violating a student’s  rights by restricting religious speech in such an essay.

So prayer is not forbidden at school, it is not forbidden in essays if that fits the topic at hand and it is not forbidden on school property. In fact to try to restrict it would be unconstitutional. Supreme Court has said that a moment of silence in school is allowed but again prayer cannot be led and neither encouraged nor discouraged by the school.

The only issue is when the government tells you which prayers you will say or listen to. 

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[5GallonBucket]

1 hour ago, bullets13 said:

It's tradition.  Several presidents have not done so.  

Yes I know, but why is a govt held position allowing a bible be part of the process?  

[LumRaiderFan]

27 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

This topic has spun way off of the PAISD mask mandate but as long as we are talking religion in school….

I have see opinions repeated several times that when they removed prayer from schools, our problems started. If your child is waiting to get to school to find prayer, your problems  started way before that. I don’t understand how you can be a Christian or any other faith and be a true believer but when you get to school, if they don’t lead you in prayer, you have somehow lost the faith. “I am 18 years old and have been a Christian and been baptized into my church but my teacher did not lead me in prayer today so I am now at atheist”? No……. 

As far as prayer in school, the Supreme Court has never outlawed prayer at public schools as claimed by some people. That is a myth. What they have banned was the government leading the prayer. One of the big cases in religious history was from the Wisconsin Supreme Court. It originally had no bearing on the rest of the country but it was cited by the United States Supreme Court later. In that case it was Christian versus Christian. The school led prayer from the King James Bible but Catholic parents protesting because the Catholic Bible was not allowed. Therein lies the problem with the government, a public school district, determining what you hear. It was an atheist against Christians, it was them against themselves.

In another case a Jewish parent brought suit. The children were told to put their hands together in prayer at the beginning of a class. The father who brought the suit said he had no problem with the Christian faith and their praying and he believes in prayer also. His complaint was that in the Jewish faith they don’t put their hands together to pray. Maybe they cannot force his son to place at hands together but that would make him an outcast an open to ridicule because the government has now determined what prayers they would say.

But by Supreme Court rulings, can students pray at school? Certainly. They can pray privately or they can meet in non-classroom time in groups and pray. Being on school property has no bearing. The prayer cannot be led, encouraged nor discouraged by the school. Some schools have wrongfully attempted to stop such  prayer and the Supreme Court has upheld that right to pray at school. The popular way at one time  of doing so was meet at the flagpole. If there were students who wished  to pray, they got together before or after class. Schools cannot restrict religious writings at school such as an essay in class.

Some schools mistakenly believe(d) that if you write anything religious in a class assignment  it is unconstitutional but that has been ruled incorrect. If the assignment in English class is to write an essay on McBeth, then the essay would have to be on that topic. If the essay was for example on anything that interests you, the school would be violating a student’s  rights by restricting religious speech in such an essay.

So prayer is not forbidden at school, it is not forbidden in essays if that fits the topic at hand and it is not forbidden on school property. In fact to try to restrict it would be unconstitutional. Supreme Court has said that a moment of silence in school is allowed but again prayer cannot be led and neither encouraged nor discouraged by the school.

The only issue is when the government tells you which prayers you will say or listen to. 

Good post, I would add that by the news I read (which is a good bit) I see more instances of schools restraining religious freedom (many times from just not knowing as you point out) than I see of schools openly promoting or allowing it.  Not necessarily in our part of the Country but in many areas.

I think the subject scares many school districts and gov entities to death.

[5GallonBucket]

1 hour ago, bullets13 said:

like the lifestyle of being a lesser person because you're black?  of not being allowed to marry people of another race?  Of getting less and lower opportunities at jobs, education, and pretty much everything else in this country based on your skin color?  it was good white Christians who perpetrated that belief for about 180 years.  There are lots of people who are still alive today who weren't allowed to attend certain schools or go into certain places because of the color of their skin.  So let's quit pretending that Christian morality was making the world a whole lot better place 50 years ago.  Racism and discrimination are not nearly the problem they were a few decades ago, and people on the left do use them like a weapon, but that doesn't change the fact that they were both fully a part of the white, Christian belief system back when things were "so much better in this country."

Who said Christians were perfect….

also who said they were “good”

Jews and gentiles 

You want to use humans (who are sinful by nature and not perfect) to solidify that Christianity is bad.  
There was plenty of black Christians during that time as well.

 

[LumRaiderFan]

1 hour ago, bullets13 said:

like the lifestyle of being a lesser person because you're black?  of not being allowed to marry people of another race?  Of getting less and lower opportunities at jobs, education, and pretty much everything else in this country based on your skin color?  it was good white Christians who perpetrated that belief for about 180 years.  There are lots of people who are still alive today who weren't allowed to attend certain schools or go into certain places because of the color of their skin.  So let's quit pretending that Christian morality was making the world a whole lot better place 50 years ago.  Racism and discrimination are not nearly the problem they were a few decades ago, and people on the left do use them like a weapon, but that doesn't change the fact that they were both fully a part of the white, Christian belief system back when things were "so much better in this country."

You're basing your opinion of Christianity on Christians, not Christ, as 5GallonBucket has already pointed out.

You'll never see me argue that Christians can't be some of the most mean-spirited folks you'll run into...but our example is perfect.

As the old saying goes, if you ever find the perfect church, don't join it, you'll screw it up.

[bullets13]

1 hour ago, LumRaiderFan said:

Explain more about this...provide all these examples of me as a Christian, forcing my views on anyone or not allowing them to express their views.

The general practice of wanting prayer broadcasted everywhere, but also of wanting to suppress other religions.  You say you’re not like that, so good on you, but there’s plenty of Christian outrage when other religions are brought to the forefront.  I assure you setx would lose their mind if a local school starting saying Muslim prayers over the loud speaker every morning.  

[bullets13]

1 hour ago, 5GallonBucket said:

Who said Christians were perfect….

also who said they were “good”

Jews and gentiles 

You want to use humans (who are sinful by nature and not perfect) to solidify that Christianity is bad.  
There was plenty of black Christians during that time as well.

 

I don’t think Christianity is bad.  My wife takes the kids to church, and I’m all for it.    I just disagree with some of the assertions being made about “how much better things were” when Christianity was more prevalent in public society.  And I think a lot of the nonsense and overreaction we’re seeing from the left these days is a direct result of very real problems that were present when Christianity was more prevalent. 

[bullets13]

1 hour ago, 5GallonBucket said:

Yes I know, but why is a govt held position allowing a bible be part of the process?  

Freedom of religion.  If Barack had wanted to take the oath on a Quran, he could’ve done that as well.  

[mat]

3 hours ago, bullets13 said:

I hate Christmas music.  My wife has already started playing it in the house.  Does me not singing along (participating) mean that I am not being affected in any way by the Christmas music?  If you get a new neighbor who has a habit of blaring rap music at 2 AM, that should be his freedom, right?  If you're not singing along, you're not having to participate.

You need to have a talk with her. It’s too early for Christmas music.