Parents charged in Michigan High School Shooting

[thetragichippy]

Thoughts?
 

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[CardinalBacker]

You know, I'd normally question why the parents would be punished, but it only seems fitting if the statements made by the investigators are true. 

 

You can't just pretend like your kid isn't mentally deranged, even if you really, REALLY support the second amendment. 

 

Reminds me of the schizo that killed Dimebag.  His mom bought him a pistol as a reward for taking his meds like a big boy... then he stopped taking them but was armed. 

[tvc184]

It is really hard to tell. The article is not exactly well written and not exactly well researched or thought out by the author. Maybe it is like a lot of articles, very little substance but a lot of emotion. I mean at one point they cite some official saying that they followed the kid on video surveillance (after the shooting)  and knew everything he did but then followed up with, he had a gun on his person or he had it in a backpack or he had a secreted somewhere else away from the campus. Wow, awesome conclusion… the gun was somewhere.

Passages like this leave questions in my mind.

“McDonald said James Crumbley bought the gun four days before it was used in the shooting. His son, sophomore Ethan Crumbley, 15, was with him and later posted on social media about the gun, calling it "my new beauty."

Jennifer Crumbley also posted about the gun on social media, calling it "his new Christmas present," McDonald said”

Did they buy the gun for their son for Christmas present? Did the father post the comment about my new baby or did his son? Was the mother referring to her son when she said it was his new Christmas present?

Along the lines of poor reporting, what law are they using to get the warrant? Are they simply using the involuntary manslaughter statute to say they were an accessory? To be an accessory it seems like they would have to have at least some knowledge that the crime was going to be committed. Texas by the way, has no accessory to a crime. Under Texas law you could not be charged as an accessory to a crime. You either took part in it or part in its planning for conspiracy in order to have charges filed. 

As far as allowing a child access to a weapon,  Texas for example has a law that makes it a crime to recklessly allow a person under 17 to get their hands on a loaded weapon. If someone gets injured because of that, it becomes up to a year in jail. Does Michigan have such a law? If they do then I can see charges as a no brainer because it simply fits the statute. That is especially true after the parents  were warned of his strange behavior. But if that kind of law does not exist, how are they adding culpability to the parents? This is especially true about me questioning the charges when the prosecutor said something about wanting to make them an example out of the parents. So is she referring to an actual law or she is using a law to try to make a political statement? Again, by reading the article we really can’t tell. This is how CNN cited prosecutor about wanting to make an example… “Addressing reporters, McDonald said she was charging the parents in part to make a point about the responsibility of gun ownership….”.

So she is charging them “to make a point”? 

If I read the article correctly, the mother was sent text messages about her son searching for ammo while at school and she did not respond to the school but responded to her sign with an LOL and you need to learn not to get caught.

On another side note, why do people put LOL so much? About 28 years ago when I learned that phrase in an AOL chat room, I understood the need but it.  It was a means of showing emotion on the Internet that at the time had no emoji‘s, GIF, memes, etc. It was a way to laugh at your own joke or let everybody know that you were not serious. I swear there are people now that cannot post something or send a text without adding lol. I have seen conversations that goes something like… Honey are you on the way home lol… yes, I just got off work and will stop for gas lol… OK, I have dinner for you when you get here lol… great, I’m hungry lol….

It is like people have been dumbed down by text messaging… roflmao

But back to the shooting. It is really hard to tell about the charges because it gives no explanation other than their mother does not have much mentality. Being goofy hardly seems the reason to charge someone with a felony however they might be very specific state laws that absolutely apply to the situation. The long article by CNN naturally does not go into that.

Also not anything in particular to do with the shooting but the mother‘s comment to her son after being informed about him looking at purchasing ammo while at school made me think of something else. I have seen it so many times at work, we have all seen it so many times on Internet forums and Facebook threads and some people who may read this comment may also fit in that category. That is the, “not my son” or “not my friend” syndrome.

[tvc184]

AND….  When I read the OP and the single word comment”thoughts?”, I started to say something like, there is really not enough information.

Looking back at my typical long winded response, I am now thinking…

There really is not enough information.

[thetragichippy]

33 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

AND….  When I read the OP and the single word comment”thoughts?”, I started to say something like, there is really not enough information.

Looking back at my typical long winded response, I am now thinking…

There really is not enough information.

Thoughts because I wanted to see if everyone was thinking like I was.....lol (you made me)

This entire situation is tough for me. A kid may be weird, have anger issues, but not necessarily want to kill their parents or blow up a school.....or commit mass murder. How, as a parent do you know? I think we have talked about this, but Darrin Mayfield. His parents were good as gold, raised two other kids who turned out fine. Darrin kills an old man and a 6 year old and steals Lamar's tuition money......He's spending his life in prison, should his parents have be charged? I don't think so.

Also, how may kids own or have been given guns in Texas and Louisiana?  I may be a bad parent, but I trained my kid as soon as I could on gun safety and how to hold a gun. To me, someone breaking into your home will not wait for you to turn on the lights and fumble with a key or combo so you can retrieve your gun and shoot them. He knew if he wanted to look at my gun, he could ask and I would let him every single time. I wanted no mystery about the gun.  If my son at 17 takes his hunting rifle and shoots someone, I should be charged? Heck, what if he drinks my beer, drives and kills someone....I know we don't have all the info, but this could set an unwanted precedent....IMO

TVC,,,,,school me....

[tvc184]

1 hour ago, thetragichippy said:

Thoughts because I wanted to see if everyone was thinking like I was.....lol (you made me)

This entire situation is tough for me. A kid may be weird, have anger issues, but not necessarily want to kill their parents or blow up a school.....or commit mass murder. How, as a parent do you know? I think we have talked about this, but Darrin Mayfield. His parents were good as gold, raised two other kids who turned out fine. Darrin kills an old man and a 6 year old and steals Lamar's tuition money......He's spending his life in prison, should his parents have be charged? I don't think so.

Also, how may kids own or have been given guns in Texas and Louisiana?  I may be a bad parent, but I trained my kid as soon as I could on gun safety and how to hold a gun. To me, someone breaking into your home will not wait for you to turn on the lights and fumble with a key or combo so you can retrieve your gun and shoot them. He knew if he wanted to look at my gun, he could ask and I would let him every single time. I wanted no mystery about the gun.  If my son at 17 takes his hunting rifle and shoots someone, I should be charged? Heck, what if he drinks my beer, drives and kills someone....I know we don't have all the info, but this could set an unwanted precedent....IMO

TVC,,,,,school me....

In Mayfield‘s case, were the parents involved at all? I don’t think so. Of course I think they also fell into the, not my kid when it first happened.

So much depends on the way to state law is written however. for about the last 25 years Texas has had a law that a child under 17 cannot have access to a loaded firearm without supervision. The key under Texas law however is, if the gun is not loaded then there is no crime at least not for access.  So you could leave your guns unloaded but leave the ammo nearby and that particular law in Texas would not be violated. Without looking it up at this moment I think the phrase in Texas is, “readily dischargeable”. (Why not just say loaded?)

In my opinion at least the way the laws are intended to work is, for you are charged in the crime then you had to be involved in the actual committing of the crime. That does not necessarily mean driving to getaway car in a robbery or pulling the trigger but maybe a friend said that he was going to rob a bank and you went and got a gun for him. There has to be some kind of knowledge that a crime was being committed or something intended to be committed and the person  being charged in the crime took some kind of action.  Like always, ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

I will use conspiracy to commit a crime as an example. There is no such crime as conspiracy by itself but there is the crime of conspiracy to commit ________ (murder, robbery, kidnapping, etc.). There has to be a felony crime attached to it. So three or more people decide they are going to commit an armed robbery. They get together and plan it and decide that one guy who does not have a felony criminal record, can go to a sporting good store and buy a handgun.  At that point the crime of Conspiracy To Commit Aggravated Robbery has not occurred because nobody has done anything other than discuss it. The law requires some overt action on the part of at least one of the conspirators. So the next day the guy goes to Academy sporting goods in buys a handgun. At that moment, the crime of Conspiracy/Aggravated Robbery was completed because a person has  now done an overt action to forward the felony. Everybody involved in the planning can now be charged with that conspiracy which is one degree  lower than the crime intended. Aggravated robbery is a first-degree felony so the conspiracy to commit the robbery would be a second-degree felony or up to 20 years in prison. Even though the other guys did not take part in the purchase of the gun, they took part in the planning of the robbery. The point of that is however, you cannot charge the guy that sold the gun at Academy. Unless he was one of the people involved in the planning, he is not responsible…. although some states are trying to make it civilly responsible. You can charge everybody who is involved in the planning because they had knowledge and took part in the planning.

So using Mayfield as an example, did his parents have knowledge or take part? There is nothing that I am aware of that would indicate that. Using that as a comparison, what are the laws in Michigan? Do they have a law that allows you to be charged with a felony committed by someone else when you had no knowledge and did not take part in the planning or the conspiracy? Do they have a law similar to Texas saying  it is a crime to allow access to a firearm by juvenile but for the penalty, if a juvenile commits a crime then you are also responsible? Maybe that is true and if that is true, they should be charged. We don’t have to agree with the law but if that is the way it is written, that is within the state’s  right.

If no such laws exist in Michigan, I think the DA is making the political statement. Her comments in the one article that I read said that she wanted to make an example out of them. That makes me question what she is thinking.

Oh yeah, and 17 your son would be an adult and he’s responsible for himself anyway. Even the law on making a firearm accessible to a child is a person who is under 17.

[PhatMack19]

The prosecutor said in her presser yesterday that Michigan laws are woefully inadequate and they have no safe storage laws.  Seems like she’s trying to make up law to fit her agenda.

 

I think the parents are idiots, but not criminal.  

[tvc184]

2 hours ago, PhatMack19 said:

The prosecutor said in her presser yesterday that Michigan laws are woefully inadequate and they have no safe storage laws.  Seems like she’s trying to make up law to fit her agenda.

 

I think the parents are idiots, but not criminal.  

That is what I thought when she said she was looking to make them and example.

Uhhhh….. why not just enforce the law?

Like I said in one of my comments above, if they have appropriate laws to cover the situation and they absolutely should apply. Now I’m thinking there are none and she is trying to stretch it for political reasons. But… maybe they have some thing that covers it. Hopefully the truth will come out.

In the Ahmaud Aubery case, I think the indictments did not come immediately because of corruption and friendships. The Rittenhouse indictments did come because of politics. I saw one of her videos where she said something like, I’m a mother so I had to do something. I think that is a pretty stupid statement by prosecutor but she probably has to run for office so she’s a politician also.

Now it looks like we’re back to politics again. 

[SmashMouth]

I’m more interested in how inadequately the school district handled the situation from the get go. 

[LumRaiderFan]

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She wants everybody in jail...from the article:

Michigan school officials could still face charges following the tragic Oxford High School shooting last week that left four students dead and seven other people injured. 

"It’s possible, yes," Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald said on NBC’s "Today" show when asked if it was "possible that school officials could face charges."

[tvc184]

3 hours ago, LumRaiderFan said:

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She wants everybody in jail...from the article:

Michigan school officials could still face charges following the tragic Oxford High School shooting last week that left four students dead and seven other people injured. 

"It’s possible, yes," Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald said on NBC’s "Today" show when asked if it was "possible that school officials could face charges."

I brought that up in another forum when they announced against parents. Apparently the school saw the drawings and perceive the threat but did not search his backpack which they are allowed to do. The school district had the authority to take action, did not and pointed to the parents.

People in glass houses…..