Sulphur Springs…/Faircloth hired

[Reagan]

24 minutes ago, Razor said:

Never said that chief...read the whole comment...I said that the circumstances back then were FAR different and the playing field from a pure numbers standpoint was more level

You can be a great coach, but if you don't have the numbers or the talent pool, it alone will NOT produce you a state championship...my point is that being judged, in this environment, purely on whether or not you "win state", is not a good barometer...Etheridge, as fine of a coach as he was, would have found the sledding a bit harder in this situation

Just find another measuring stick to determine whether your coach should keep his job or not...there are plenty of other things you can measure him by 

No, you need to read what you wrote!  You blamed everything but the coaching!  

[PN-G bamatex]

51 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Not if they have/had the "right" coach!   What do you think an actual state championship-type coach could have done with that QB they had  a while back?!   And didn't they have a hellacious RB this year?!  It's time we start putting the blame where it belongs concerning teams that never make it to the State Title.  And it's NOT on the kids!!

Roschon? What would we have done with Roschon if we had an “actual state championship-type coach” when he was playing? That’s seriously what you’re asking?

Roschon’s family moved out of Port Arthur ISD and into PN-GISD when RJ was still playing Pop Warner because Faircloth is one of the best QB coaches in Texas and RJ’s dad knew Faircloth could develop RJ’s talent. I remember that - I went to school with RJ’s older brother after they made the move. If Faircloth hadn’t been at PN-G, Roschon never would have played a down at PN-G.

So what would we have done with Roschon if we had a true, blue, smitty-certified, state championship-caliber head coach? The answer is, not damn thing. The fact that RJ played for PN-G at all is yet another reason we were so lucky to have Faircloth.

You’ve hated Faircloth since the day the man hired on. You didn’t know the first thing about PN-G then, and you still don’t now. Go back to worrying about Nederland ISD’s bonds.

[Reagan]

27 minutes ago, LCMAlumtiger32 said:

I believe a good Coach is important. But we can’t sit back here and try to play match maker with athletes. You know you run into teams with multiple D1 offers. Farther in the playoffs you go more athletes your playing against your 1 or 2 guys  might have trouble playing a against a stacked team. There were also two great coaches at home during the state championship games Scott Surratt and Gary Joseph are they at fault for not making  it to the championship? 

Surratt has 8 State Titles           Joseph has 5 State Titles

Nothing is in a straight line.  Can't win them every year.  BUT -- to say these coaches had nothing to do with their schools winning a State Title is a little silly.  And since they didn't win it this year, and to then try and say, "see, it's not the coaching" is even more sillier!  Oh, BTW, Carthage never won a State Title before Surratt got there.  By the standards a lot here believe, this was just a "coincidence!"

[Reagan]

9 minutes ago, PN-G bamatex said:

Roschon? What would we have done with Roschon if we had an “actual state championship-type coach” when he was playing? That’s seriously what you’re asking?

Roschon’s family moved out of Port Arthur ISD and into PN-GISD when RJ was still playing Pop Warner because Faircloth is one of the best QB coaches in Texas and RJ’s dad knew Faircloth could develop RJ’s talent. I remember that - I went to school with RJ’s older brother after they made the move. If Faircloth hadn’t been at PN-G, Roschon never would have played a down at PN-G.

So what would we have done with Roschon if we had a true, blue, smitty-certified, state championship-caliber head coach? The answer is, not damn thing. The fact that RJ played for PN-G at all is yet another reason we were so lucky to have Faircloth.

You’ve hated Faircloth since the day the man hired on. You didn’t know the first thing about PN-G then, and you still don’t now. Go back to worrying about Nederland ISD’s bonds.

2nd one first:  If you have been paying attention, I have said numerous times that nothing is personal.  I figured, just like with Nederland, that after a while PNG wasn't going to win a State Title under the present situation.  Now after 12 years, it appears others have finally realized this also!

1st:  You don't think that Surratt, Buchanan at Aldo, or Briles could have done the same thing?  You know, actual state championship-type coaches!

[AshlyHasBeen]

54 minutes ago, Reagan said:

So -- although Doug Ethridge played in 4 State Championships and won 2 -- he had nothing to do with PNG's success?!  

Are you talking about his actual playing days? I’m not sure of that history. But he won one title as PNG’s head coach in 1975 and lost another in 1977. They didn’t play in four championship games under him. 

[PN-G bamatex]

15 minutes ago, Reagan said:

2nd one first:  If you have been paying attention, I have said numerous times that nothing is personal.  I figured, just like with Nederland, that after a while PNG wasn't going to win a State Title under the present situation.  Now after 12 years, it appears others have finally realized this also!

1st:  You don't think that Surratt, Buchanan at Aldo, or Briles could have done the same thing?  You know, actual state championship-type coaches!

Don’t give me that. I was here twelve years ago. When Faircloth hired on, I specifically remember you going on non-stop about two things: how Faircloth wouldn’t measure up to his predecessor, and how PN-G spent too much money on the stadium. You’re making the same points now that you were then.
 

PN-G’s not going to get a Briles, a Buchanan or a Surratt. They can make more money working in better facilities with more talent and larger staffs in the suburbs. And now, they know not even a three round playoff run is enough to generate job security at PN-G.

God help us.

[Reagan]

16 minutes ago, AshlyKBMT said:

Are you talking about his actual playing days? I’m not sure of that history. But he won one title as PNG’s head coach in 1975 and lost another in 1977. They didn’t play in four championship games under him. 

Didn't say that!  I was talking purely about coaching ability.  Doug Ethridge played in 2 State Titles and won 1 at Hobbs, NM.  Played in 2 at PNG and won one.  

[AshlyHasBeen]

3 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Didn't say that!  I was talking purely about coaching ability.  Doug Ethridge played in 2 State Titles and won 1 at Hobbs, NM.  Played in 2 at PNG and won one.  

Gotcha. 

[Reagan]

25 minutes ago, PN-G bamatex said:

Don’t give me that. I was here twelve years ago. When Faircloth hired on, I specifically remember you going on non-stop about two things: how Faircloth wouldn’t measure up to his predecessor, and how PN-G spent too much money on the stadium. You’re making the same points now that you were then.
 

PN-G’s not going to get a Briles, a Buchanan or a Surratt. They can make more money working in better facilities with more talent and larger staffs in the suburbs. And now, they know not even a three round playoff run is enough to generate job security at PN-G.

God help us.

Seriously, his predecessor was Burnett.  Even drunk I don't think I would have said that!  LOL! 

Oh, BTW, yes, PNG spent too much money on the stadium.  Hasn't made them a better football team, has it?  Again, no State Titles!  Well, as long as it looks good, I guess!

Oh, and BTW part 2:  You may be right about not getting three coaches you mentioned.  BUT -- these three were assistant coaches at one time.  When an assistant is hired you have a 50-50 chance.  That's why if it doesn't work out in a reasonable time then you need to look elsewhere.  Just because you failed with one doesn't mean you stop looking.  Now, that reasonable time is subjective to what the taxpayers and administration will accept.  12 years is long enough to realize that in the present situation PNG wasn't going to win a State Title.  Maybe 12 years is PNG's measuring tape.  Personally, I think you can recognize it's not going to happen around year 7 or 8.  But, as people know here, my bar is a little higher than most.

[dBerrySports]

6 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Seriously, his predecessor was Burnett.  Even drunk I don't think I would have said that!  LOL!  Oh, BTW, yes, PNG spent too much money on the stadium.  Hasn't made them a better football team, has it?  Again, no State Titles!  Well, as long as it looks good, I guess!

So success is only measured in state titles? That's what you seem to be implying.

[Reagan]

2 minutes ago, dBerrySports said:

So success is only measured in state titles? That's what you seem to be implying.

Ask any coach when the season starts and see what THEIR goals are.  Their goal is to win District then win the State Title.  So, yes, there success is based on winning a State Title.  What, you feel that paying a HC big sums of money just to have a descent football team is OK for 20-25 years or longer?  Again, it all depends where the bar is set.

[MackLewis]

12 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Ask any coach when the season starts and see what THEIR goals are.  Their goal is to win District then win the State Title.  So, yes, there success is based on winning a State Title.  What, you feel that paying a HC big sums of money just to have a descent football team is OK for 20-25 years or longer?  Again, it all depends where the bar is set.

You are right, everyone’s ultimate goal is a state title.   Coaches are competitive, but not naive or dumb.

 

In every classification, on any given year, there’s only about 10 schools with a realistic chance of winning a championship. With about 225 schools in each class (on average), only 10 schools have a realistic goal of winning a title.   So every 5 or 6 years, the 200+ schools in every class without a title needs to move on from their coach?  
 

The only one not being realistic is you.

[Razor]

1 hour ago, Reagan said:

No, you need to read what you wrote!  You blamed everything but the coaching!  

I am figuring this out...Reagan must be a politician...he attempts to takes what others say and make it fit his narrative.

I'll simplify for you...Great or very good coaching alone will in no way guarantee you what you measure as the only form of success, an SC...you can have the very best of coaches and still not reach the promised land

[MackLewis]

Newton better count their blessings that they didn’t consult with Reagan in the late 70’s, through the 80’s and 90’s.

In 1974 Newton won state, only to have Coach Lyndee Thompson leave to go to another school.   So they promote the offensive coordinator for the 1975 season.   It took Newton 23 years to win another state championship.  So according to Reagan, Curtis Barbay, the 8th all-time winningest coach in the state of Texas woulda been canned in the mid-80’s for not delivering a state title.

 

Other schools like Hampshire-Fannett has done what you advocate.   HF had UIL hall-of-fame coach Les Koenning, who is one of the most respected coaches in the state of Texas, all time, as their head coach.  In 1974, HF was #1 in the state.   They lose to #2 Newton (see above) in the 1st round of the playoffs.

In 1975, HF was #1 again, only to lose in the 4th round, to the eventual state runner-ups.    So in 2 years Les Koenning went 23-2, and people in the community were up in arms, and he didn’t get renewed.   HF has never sniffed that success again.

 

Winning a state title is much harder than you make it out to be.   Sometimes perspective is hard to come by and keep.  
 

Ask Randy Allen at Highland Park… he didn’t win a title at Brownwood, following Gordon Wood.   He also didn’t win one at Abilene Cooper.   Turns out he knows how to coach despite not winning a title.

 

Same with Phil Danaher and countless others.

[Reagan]

5 minutes ago, Razor said:

I am figuring this out...Reagan must be a politician...he attempts to takes what others say and make it fit his narrative.

I'll simplify for you...Great or very good coaching alone will in no way guarantee you what you measure as the only form of success, an SC...you can have the very best of coaches and still not reach the promised land

Depends on where you put the measuring stick!   If one puts the bar low then every coach is just peachy creamy!  

[Reagan]

16 minutes ago, MackLewis said:

You are right, everyone’s ultimate goal is a state title.   Coaches are competitive, but not naive or dumb.

 

In every classification, on any given year, there’s only about 10 schools with a realistic chance of winning a championship. With about 225 schools in each class (on average), only 10 schools have a realistic goal of winning a title.   So every 5 or 6 years, the 200+ schools in every class without a title needs to move on from their coach?  
 

The only one not being realistic is you.

Let me get this straight:  A coaches goal is the State Title.  So this is what they expect from themselves.  But, then, are you telling us that WE should't expect the same from them what they expect from themselves?!  Interesting!!

[Razor]

and it can be set too low, I agree...no argument there...it can also be set unrealistically high...wanting to get rid of guys for failure to win SC's falls in that category IMO

 

[Reagan]

2 minutes ago, Razor said:

and it can be set too low, I agree...no argument there...it can also be set unrealistically high...wanting to get rid of guys for failure to win SC's falls in that category IMO

 

So, your opinion:  Do you think 12 years is long enough?  

[PN-G bamatex]

37 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Seriously, his predecessor was Burnett.  Even drunk I don't think I would have said that!  LOL! 

Oh, BTW, yes, PNG spent too much money on the stadium.  Hasn't made them a better football team, has it?  Again, no State Titles!  Well, as long as it looks good, I guess!

Oh, and BTW part 2:  You may be right about not getting three coaches you mentioned.  BUT -- these three were assistant coaches at one time.  When an assistant is hired you have a 50-50 chance.  That's why if it doesn't work out in a reasonable time then you need to look elsewhere.  Just because you failed with one doesn't mean you stop looking.  Now, that reasonable time is subjective to what the taxpayers and administration will accept.  12 years is long enough to realize that in the present situation PNG wasn't going to win a State Title.  Maybe 12 years is PNG's measuring tape.  Personally, I think you can recognize it's not going to happen around year 7 or 8.  But, as people know here, my bar is a little higher than most.

With the exception of Danny Malone, whose two seasons don't present a sufficient sample size, Brandon Faircloth had the best winning percentage of any PN-G coach since Doug Ethridge. He had the most wins to his name of any PN-G coach in PN-G history; he took only thirteen seasons to break a record his predecessor took fifteen seasons to set. He sent more players on to play at the college level, particularly at more major college programs, than any coach in PN-G history by a country mile, and produced arguably the best athlete in school history. His teams shattered multiple school records dating back decades. He brought PN-G its first undefeated regular season in 32 years - only the third such season in school history - and strung together the most consistent streak of deep playoff runs PN-G's had in four decades. Most recently, he took a team that wasn't even predicted to make the playoffs three rounds deep, pulling off two major upsets over state-ranked powers along the way, the latter of the two sporting an 11-0 record at the time.

And you think the fact that he didn't get us all the way to state during his thirteen seasons, in an era when no Southeast Texas team in PN-G's classification has managed to beat the suburbs to get to state since 2002, is sufficient justification to dismiss him, on the off chance his successor might hire the next Art Briles as an assistant?

Now you're just trolling. This conversation's not worth carrying on.

[MackLewis]

10 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Let me get this straight:  A coaches goal is the State Title.  So this is what they expect from themselves.  But, then, are you telling us that WE should't expect the same from them what they expect from themselves?!  Interesting!!

That’s the goal in every program.   That’s what they attempt to sell to the kids, whether it’s achievable or not.   The coaches ARE NOT stupid.   They know the teams they have, and the competition they face.

 

As a fan you can want the same.   Just have realistic expectations.   A wish, want, or expectation are not the same.

 

Was it achievable or reasonable for PNG to beat Crosby?   What about South Oak Cliff?

 

Could they have played Crosby tougher?   Probably!  But beat them, absolutely not.   If you watched the game, you clearly saw that.   I watch on Texan Live from Santa Rosa Beach, FL.   PNG wasn’t beating Crosby with Faircloth, or Jimmy Johnson.

 

Have realistic expectations.   

[Reagan]

7 minutes ago, PN-G bamatex said:

With the exception of Danny Malone, whose two seasons don't present a sufficient sample size, Brandon Faircloth had the best winning percentage of any PN-G coach since Doug Ethridge. He had the most wins to his name of any PN-G coach in PN-G history; he took only thirteen seasons to break a record his predecessor took fifteen seasons to set. He sent more players on to play at the college level, particularly at more major college programs, than any coach in PN-G history by a country mile, and produced arguably the best athlete in school history. His teams shattered multiple school records dating back decades. He brought PN-G its first undefeated regular season in 32 years - only the third such season in school history - and strung together the most consistent streak of deep playoff runs PN-G's had in four decades. Most recently, he took a team that wasn't even predicted to make the playoffs three rounds deep, pulling off two major upsets over state-ranked powers along the way, the latter of the two sporting an 11-0 record at the time.

And you think the fact that he didn't get us all the way to state during his thirteen seasons, in an era when no Southeast Texas team in PN-G's classification has managed to beat the suburbs to get to state since 2002, is sufficient justification to dismiss him, on the off chance his successor might hire the next Art Briles as an assistant?

Now you're just trolling. This conversation's not worth carrying on.

12 years and no State Championships.  Facts don't care about your feelings!  But, I'll say this, he's on par with coaches that are just good coaches.  As of now, he's not in the category of State Championship-type coach.

[Tiger33]

1 hour ago, Reagan said:

Surratt has 8 State Titles           Joseph has 5 State Titles

Nothing is in a straight line.  Can't win them every year.  BUT -- to say these coaches had nothing to do with their schools winning a State Title is a little silly.  And since they didn't win it this year, and to then try and say, "see, it's not the coaching" is even more sillier!  Oh, BTW, Carthage never won a State Title before Surratt got there.  By the standards a lot here believe, this was just a "coincidence!"

I like your passion and expectations for the game. Have you ever coached? Even on the youth level? 

[Reagan]

1 minute ago, MackLewis said:

That’s the goal in every program.   That’s what they attempt to sell to the kids, whether it’s achievable or not.   The coaches ARE NOT stupid.   They know the teams they have, and the competition they face.

 

As a fan you can want the same.   Just have realistic expectations.   A wish, want, or expectation are not the same.

 

Was it achievable or reasonable for PNG to beat Crosby?   What about South Oak Cliff?

 

Could they have played Crosby tougher?   Probably!  But beat them, absolutely not.   If you watched the game, you clearly saw that.   I watch on Texan Live from Santa Rosa Beach, FL.   PNG wasn’t beating Crosby with Faircloth, or Jimmy Johnson.

 

Have realistic expectations.   

I've seen PNG, under Doug Ethridge, beat teams that were more talented, physically and speed wise than PNG.  So, yes, it's possible.  Look, you are right, 90% of the coaches can't hang in State Championship-type category.  But, does that mean you stop looking?  If i'm going to pay a coach big bucks then much is expected!  

[oldman]

This thread is better than the game that is on right now.   Getting my popcorn and enjoying the commentary.

[MackLewis]

2 minutes ago, Reagan said:

12 years and no State Championships.  Facts don't care about your feelings!  But, I'll say this, he's on par with coaches that are just good coaches.  As of now, he's not in the category of State Championship-type coach.

If and when Faircloth leaves for Sulpher Springs, those that wanted him gone, and those that believe all coaches should deliver a state title in a given time frame, will find out that changing a coach does not mean it gets any better.

 

IMO, the 3rd or 4th round is the ceiling (or realistic expectation) PNG should expect.