Tarkington Open

[oldschool2]

45 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Well, I went back to every page to see if you posted something concerning this subject.  Guess what?  No postings.  So, got to wonder why all of a sudden you are concerned about it.  Anyway, if you had been paying attention, there is a correlation about Briles and Tarkington.  It may take a few side roads but so what?  Point started off being that Stephenville was very much in the same boat as Tarkington.  I even posted Stephenville's records before Briles got there.  Point being -- it took the right coach to come in and right the ship.  I believe it took him 6 years to implement his program which resulted in 4 State Titles.  And BTW -- during those Title runs he was 63-1.  Impressive in anyone's book.  Tarkington will need someone dedicated to staying there and implementing a program that reaches all the way down to the junior high level.  And just as Brownwood was the big dog in Stephenville's district, that eventually fell to Stephenville, it appears that East Chambers is the big dog here.  This would be the goal to topple East Chambers.  But, can just any coach do it?  No.  But, as with any hire -- you never know if you got the "right" coach or not!  

Boy do I wish that Art Briles would take the Tarkington job... but I know that they don't have enough money in the entire school district to persuade him.  Not that it would matter if they did.

[Reagan]

3 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

Boy do I wish that Art Briles would take the Tarkington job... but I know that they don't have enough money in the entire school district to persuade him.  Not that it would matter if they did.

I'm sure they were saying the same thing at Stephenville when he took that.  Remember -- they were just as bad.  He did it once, why couldn't he do it again?  I'll ask my old stand-by question:  What in Briles past would make you think he couldn't?

[oldschool2]

21 minutes ago, Reagan said:

I'm sure they were saying the same thing at Stephenville when he took that.  Remember -- they were just as bad.  He did it once, why couldn't he do it again?  I'll ask my old stand-by question:  What in Briles past would make you think he couldn't?

Stephenville won at least 8 games in a season.. 10 times before Briles got there.  Tarkington has won 8 games in a season.. NEVER.  Do you know how many 10 win seasons that Stepheville has had since Briles left?  A bunch.  Including 2 more state titles.

They don't have the same level of players.  You can be mad about that if you want.. still doesn't change anything.

[89Falcon]

5 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

Stephenville won at least 8 games in a season.. 10 times before Briles got there.  Tarkington has won 8 games in a season.. NEVER.  Do you know how many 10 win seasons that Stepheville has had since Briles left?  A bunch.  Including 2 more state titles.

They don't have the same level of players.  You can be mad about that if you want.. still doesn't change anything.

Agree 100%. anyone who believes that talent in Tarkington is similar to Liberty Hill or Stephenville is living in a fantasy world. No one in Stephenville or Tarkington ever had a day in their life where they "saying the same thing" as Tarkington. 

[bullets13]

9 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

Stephenville won at least 8 games in a season.. 10 times before Briles got there.  Tarkington has won 8 games in a season.. NEVER.  Do you know how many 10 win seasons that Stepheville has had since Briles left?  A bunch.  Including 2 more state titles.

They don't have the same level of players.  You can be mad about that if you want.. still doesn't change anything.

He has a very strict "if you didn't win the state championship then your season was a failure" rule, so by his standards Stephenville and Tarkington were exactly the same until Briles took over.  But your point is completely correct.  

[Guest mrtomcat]

I dont think its up for debate.   Its like comparing Biden to Trump.  Come on guys

[Reagan]

48 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

Stephenville won at least 8 games in a season.. 10 times before Briles got there.  Tarkington has won 8 games in a season.. NEVER.  Do you know how many 10 win seasons that Stepheville has had since Briles left?  A bunch.  Including 2 more state titles.

They don't have the same level of players.  You can be mad about that if you want.. still doesn't change anything.

It's interesting if it's not about the coaching, then I can presume by those that feel this way, that all coaches are the same?!  And it's their fortune or misfortune to have or not to have the talent?!   So, through the previous 78 years and through 19 coaches before Briles -- why no State Titles before he got there?  Talk about coaches that were unfortunate!   BTW -- same goes for Aledo and Carthage.  All their previous coaches, I guess, had the same bad luck as the ones at Stephenville. 

Why you don't see it that often -- is because their aren't that many Elite coaches out their!  

BTW -- I'm still mulling over statement that Danaher is an Elite but Dodge isn't.  But, again, that's your opinion and this is what we do here!

[89Falcon]

16 minutes ago, Reagan said:

It's interesting if it's not about the coaching, then I can presume by those that feel this way, that all coaches are the same?!  And it's their fortune or misfortune to have or not to have the talent?!   So, through the previous 78 years and through 19 coaches before Briles -- why no State Titles before he got there?  Talk about coaches that were unfortunate!   BTW -- same goes for Aledo and Carthage.  All their previous coaches, I guess, had the same bad luck as the ones at Stephenville. 

Why you don't see it that often -- is because their aren't that many Elite coaches out their!  

BTW -- I'm still mulling over statement that Danaher is an Elite but Dodge isn't.  But, again, that's your opinion and this is what we do here!

Yes, "all the previous coaches had the same bad luck". And every coach that ever set foot in Tarkington was a "bad coach". Based on their horrible results? Because Tarkington has talent similar to Aledo, Carthage, and Stephenville?

[oldschool2]

17 minutes ago, Reagan said:

It's interesting if it's not about the coaching, then I can presume by those that feel this way, that all coaches are the same?!  And it's their fortune or misfortune to have or not to have the talent?!   So, through the previous 78 years and through 19 coaches before Briles -- why no State Titles before he got there?  Talk about coaches that were unfortunate!   BTW -- same goes for Aledo and Carthage.  All their previous coaches, I guess, had the same bad luck as the ones at Stephenville. 

Why you don't see it that often -- is because their aren't that many Elite coaches out their!  

BTW -- I'm still mulling over statement that Danaher is an Elite but Dodge isn't.  But, again, that's your opinion and this is what we do here!

Aledo previously had some years with the 2nd leading Texas rusher in the history of Texas High School football.  Carthage previously went through some years with a kid that went on to start at UT.

Are you saying that their coaches weren't more fortunate at Aledo and Carthage than they would've been at Tarkington?  Let's throw Westerberg in the conversation.  Elite coach?.. or fortunate to have the greatest high school quarterback to ever take a snap.  I mean.. he won as many titles at Allen as Briles did at Stephenville.  How did he do at Barbers Hill, by the way?  I forget.

[bullets13]

16 minutes ago, Reagan said:

It's interesting if it's not about the coaching, then I can presume by those that feel this way, that all coaches are the same?!  And it's their fortune or misfortune to have or not to have the talent?!   So, through the previous 78 years and through 19 coaches before Briles -- why no State Titles before he got there?  Talk about coaches that were unfortunate!   BTW -- same goes for Aledo and Carthage.  All their previous coaches, I guess, had the same bad luck as the ones at Stephenville. 

Why you don't see it that often -- is because their aren't that many Elite coaches out their!  

BTW -- I'm still mulling over statement that Danaher is an Elite but Dodge isn't.  But, again, that's your opinion and this is what we do here!

what everyone (but you) has been saying, is that coaching, athletes, and community support all play a role.  That said, the athletes are the most important piece of the puzzle, and there are breaking points in both directions.   there's a point where a team can be so stacked with athletes that even a mediocre coach can win with them, and also a team can be so devoid of athletes that even an elite coach can't make them a consistent winner.  Can great coaching improve a team?  absolutely. Can great coaching turn a team that wins 1-2 games a year and has a tiny athlete pool into a state championship contender in 7 years?  absolutely not, although they could probably turn them into a .500 team that flirts with a playoff win every few years, based on the coaching ability alone.  Now, if that great coach starts to build things up, and a population explosion (or dubious transfer policies) bring in a lot of quality athletes, then yes, they can become a contender, but once again, that's all dependent on having the athletes.

[Reagan]

12 minutes ago, 89Falcon said:

Yes, "all the previous coaches had the same bad luck". And every coach that ever set foot in Tarkington was a "bad coach". Based on their horrible results? Because Tarkington has talent similar to Aledo, Carthage, and Stephenville?

So, the talent only showed up when Buchanan, Surratt and Briles got their?  Hummm...

[bullets13]

10 minutes ago, Reagan said:

So, the talent only showed up when Buchanan, Surratt and Briles got their?  Hummm...

They were great coaches who took existing talent and won with it.  you're ignoring the fact that there were already athletes and talent in place.  you continually try to compare that situation to places that lack both.  

[89Falcon]

19 minutes ago, Reagan said:

So, the talent only showed up when Buchanan, Surratt and Briles got their?  Hummm...

According to you, Tarkington has similar talent. For clarification: You believe Tarkington could have similar results "if they get the right coach"? the only thing holding Tarkington back is that "they have not got the right coach"? Is this correct?

[Guest mrtomcat]

9 minutes ago, 89Falcon said:

According to you, Tarkington has similar talent. For clarification: You believe Tarkington could have similar results "if they get the right coach"? the only thing holding Tarkington back is that "they have not got the right coach"? Is this correct?

There hasn't been an athlete in tarkington since 199never. Thats the point he's missing.

[89Falcon]

1 minute ago, mrtomcat said:

There hasn't been an athlete in tarkington since 199never. Thats the point he's missing.

Agree 100%. It is a "wasteland" of "slow". 

[Reagan]

1 hour ago, 89Falcon said:

According to you, Tarkington has similar talent. For clarification: You believe Tarkington could have similar results "if they get the right coach"? the only thing holding Tarkington back is that "they have not got the right coach"? Is this correct?

Correct.  Some places, more work is needed.  But, since there aren’t many Elite coaches then it may not ever happen.  But it doesn’t mean you stop trying.   Remember, it’s process.  Just because Buchanan would show up again at any school and not set the process in motion, then that  fail.
 Do you think that some coaches can take decent athletes and through the process they can make them a whole lot better?  Do you think that Dodge had anything to do with developing his QB talent at SLC and Westlake?  Or, since coaching doesn’t matter, that “any” coach could have the same thing?  Maybe!  But my advise to you is not to make a bet on it.  
You talked about comparable talent. Just a note, I talk about before Buchanan, Surratt, got there.  I don’t, unless you, why raw talent Tarkington has had through the years?  Well, this will be a matter of opinion.  Second, we don’t know what type of talent is walking the halls.  It’s amazing how you usually find out if/when you start winning.  Because everybody wants to be a part of winning.  Why — because winning solves a whole lots of problems.  
PS — you ever see a less talented team beat a far better talent team?  If you have, I would say they were better coached!   BTW, didn’t Liberty Hill beat Crosby pretty bad in the playoffs?  My opinion is that Crosby had the better overall talent.  But that night, Crosby was out coached.  Again, my opinion!

[Reagan]

2 hours ago, Reagan said:

Correct.  Some places, more work is needed.  But, since there aren’t that many Elite coaches then it may not ever happen.  But it doesn’t mean you stop trying.   Remember, it’s a process.  Just because Buchanan would show up at any school and not set the process in motion, then that  fail.
 Do you think that some coaches can take decent athletes and through the process they can make them a whole lot better?  Do you think that Dodge had anything to do with developing his QB talent at SLC and Westlake?  Or, since coaching doesn’t matter, that “any” coach could have done the same thing?  Maybe!  But my advise to you is not to make a bet on it.  
You talked about comparable talent. Just a note, I talk about before Buchanan, Surratt, got there.  I don’t, unless you, why raw talent Tarkington has had through the years?  Well, this will be a matter of opinion.  Second, we don’t know what type of talent is walking the halls.  It’s amazing how you usually find out if/when you start winning.  Because everybody wants to be a part of winning.  Why — because winning solves a whole lots of problems.  
PS — you ever see a less talented team beat a far better talent team?  If you have, I would say they were better coached!   BTW, didn’t Liberty Hill beat Crosby pretty bad in the playoffs?  My opinion is that Crosby had the better overall talent.  But that night, Crosby was out coached.  Again, my opinion!

Let me make sense of this.  HA!  I was saying: "I don't, unless you do, know what raw talent Tarkington has had through he years.  

[oldschool2]

15 hours ago, Reagan said:

Correct.  Some places, more work is needed.  But, since there aren’t many Elite coaches then it may not ever happen.  But it doesn’t mean you stop trying.   Remember, it’s process.  Just because Buchanan would show up again at any school and not set the process in motion, then that  fail.
 Do you think that some coaches can take decent athletes and through the process they can make them a whole lot better?  Do you think that Dodge had anything to do with developing his QB talent at SLC and Westlake?  Or, since coaching doesn’t matter, that “any” coach could have the same thing?  Maybe!  But my advise to you is not to make a bet on it.  
You talked about comparable talent. Just a note, I talk about before Buchanan, Surratt, got there.  I don’t, unless you, why raw talent Tarkington has had through the years?  Well, this will be a matter of opinion.  Second, we don’t know what type of talent is walking the halls.  It’s amazing how you usually find out if/when you start winning.  Because everybody wants to be a part of winning.  Why — because winning solves a whole lots of problems.  
PS — you ever see a less talented team beat a far better talent team?  If you have, I would say they were better coached!   BTW, didn’t Liberty Hill beat Crosby pretty bad in the playoffs?  My opinion is that Crosby had the better overall talent.  But that night, Crosby was out coached.  Again, my opinion!

Are you going to reply to my earlier comment?.. or just ignore it because it makes you argument dumb?

By the way.. nobody is saying that coaching doesn't matter.  But even "elite coaches" as you say have to have some talent.  They have to have big time talent to win titles (future college athletes) and you're comparing the talent at Tarkington to that of.. let's see.. Aledo, Carthage, Stephenville, Southlake Carrol, Austin Westlake.. um.. are you seriously that clueless?

Not a single coach to have ever won a state championship is going to Tarkington High School and winning a state championship in the relative future without some serious transfers.  

[BEARCPA]

16 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

Are you going to reply to my earlier comment?.. or just ignore it because it makes you argument dumb?

By the way.. nobody is saying that coaching doesn't matter.  But even "elite coaches" as you say have to have some talent.  They have to have big time talent to win titles (future college athletes) and you're comparing the talent at Tarkington to that of.. let's see.. Aledo, Carthage, Stephenville, Southlake Carrol, Austin Westlake.. um.. are you seriously that clueless?

Not a single coach to have ever won a state championship is going to Tarkington High School and winning a state championship in the relative future without some serious transfers.  

Say it louder for the people in the peanut gallery. 

[Reagan]

50 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

Are you going to reply to my earlier comment?.. or just ignore it because it makes you argument dumb?

By the way.. nobody is saying that coaching doesn't matter.  But even "elite coaches" as you say have to have some talent.  They have to have big time talent to win titles (future college athletes) and you're comparing the talent at Tarkington to that of.. let's see.. Aledo, Carthage, Stephenville, Southlake Carrol, Austin Westlake.. um.. are you seriously that clueless?

Not a single coach to have ever won a state championship is going to Tarkington High School and winning a state championship in the relative future without some serious transfers.  

Well, talking about not responding.  I had ask you a question that you didn't answer.  I'll try again:  This is exactly the previous post.  "PS -- If you, or anyone here, was in charge of picking the next Head Coach and your job depended on it,  and their criteria was that they want a State Championship as soon as possible -- who would you hire?   Danaher or Briles?"  It's easy -- which one.?

Answer this and I may or may not make an excellent response to yours!   More than likely I will.  LOL!!

[oldschool2]

1 minute ago, Reagan said:

Well, talking about not responding.  I had ask you a question that you didn't answer.  I'll try again:  This is exactly the previous post.  "PS -- If you, or anyone here, was in charge of picking the next Head Coach and your job depended on it,  and their criteria was that they want a State Championship as soon as possible -- who would you hire?   Danaher or Briles?"  Answer this and I may or may not make an excellent response to yours!   More than likely I will.  LOL!!

I would hire Briles.. because Briles is still coaching.  However, I would in zero way expect for him to win more than one playoff game unless he's bringing kids with him.  I most definitely would not expect for him to win a state championship..because I'm not an idiot.  And if my job depended on the success of the next football coach at Tarkington, I'd be ready to find a new job after my hire didn't meet whoever's criteria of whatever is deemed as success.  Unless they have some realistic goals for a school that has won less than 5 playoff games (TOTAL) in it's history.

[SherriffReesie]

1 minute ago, oldschool2 said:

I would hire Briles.. because Briles is still coaching.  However, I would in zero way expect for him to win more than one playoff game unless he's bringing kids with him.  I most definitely would not expect for him to win a state championship..because I'm not an idiot.  And if my job depended on the success of the next football coach at Tarkington, I'd be ready to find a new job after my hire didn't meet whoever's criteria of whatever is deemed as success.  Unless they have some realistic goals for a school that has won less than 5 playoff games (TOTAL) in it's history.

2*

[Reagan]

11 minutes ago, oldschool2 said:

I would hire Briles.. because Briles is still coaching.  However, I would in zero way expect for him to win more than one playoff game unless he's bringing kids with him.  I most definitely would not expect for him to win a state championship..because I'm not an idiot.  And if my job depended on the success of the next football coach at Tarkington, I'd be ready to find a new job after my hire didn't meet whoever's criteria of whatever is deemed as success.  Unless they have some realistic goals for a school that has won less than 5 playoff games (TOTAL) in it's history.

First I was talking in general.  Not necessarily at Tarkington.  But with Tarkington, I'd stretch it to give him 10 years.  If he stayed that long.   It's always how bad the situation is.   But, again, what in his past would make you think  he couldn't?! 

Anyway, at Stephenville, after no State Titles for the previous 78 years and going through 19 coaches -- what athletes did Briles bring with him to win 4 State Titles with a record of 63-1 during those wins?  And, BTW, are you telling me that during those 78 years -- at any time -- they NEVER had any athletes that could produce a Title.  

Also, thanks for the answer.  I will respond.

[Matthew328]

4 minutes ago, Reagan said:

First I was talking in general.  Not necessarily at Tarkington.  But with Tarkington, I'd stretch it to give him 10 years.  If he stayed that long.   It's always how bad the situation is.   Anyway, at Stephenville, after no State Titles for the previous 78 years and going through 19 coaches -- what athletes did Briles bring with him to win 4 State Titles with a record of 63-1 during those wins?  And, BTW, are you telling me that during those 78 years -- at any time -- they NEVER had any athletes that could produce a Title.  

Also, thanks for the answer.  I will respond.

I mean there were always rumors swirling around Stephenville of move-in's etc during Briles tenure there...lol

 

Like I said in a previous thread you can win a state title with elite talent and average coaching...I dont believe you can win a state title with average talent and elite coaching..there's always a breaking point on either side of it but thats just the way it is...elite coaching can IMO devleop talent over time, change the culture etc and establish a desireable place to live that attracts talent to move in etc as well....

Todd Dodge is an amazing Coach, did unreal things at Carroll and Westlake...two very similar communities....however in his four other coaching stops his record was pretty average and he stayed only two years at each stop...I think that has to be noted when talking about Todd Dodge

[oldschool2]

22 minutes ago, Reagan said:

First I was talking in general.  Not necessarily at Tarkington.  But with Tarkington, I'd stretch it to give him 10 years.  If he stayed that long.   It's always how bad the situation is.   But, again, what in his past would make you think  he couldn't?! 

Anyway, at Stephenville, after no State Titles for the previous 78 years and going through 19 coaches -- what athletes did Briles bring with him to win 4 State Titles with a record of 63-1 during those wins?  And, BTW, are you telling me that during those 78 years -- at any time -- they NEVER had any athletes that could produce a Title.  

Also, thanks for the answer.  I will respond.

I already told you.. it's the lack of faith I have in what Tarkington has had on the field over what Briles would be able to do.  I also told you.. Stephenville won AT LEAST 8 games in a season... ten different seasons before Briles took the job.  Tarkington has never won more than 7 games in a season.  Not even once.  It takes an extreme level of ignorance to believe that coaches can just win championships no matter the level of talent they have to work with.  You, my guy, are displaying that level of ignorance.

I'm also waiting on a response about my question concerning Westerberg.  Did he win the state championships because of his ability to coach?.. or because Kyler Murray was taking snaps?  Or a combination of the two?.. which is what literally everyone in this conversation thinks except you.  My opinion.. Murray had more to do with Westerberg's titles than Westerberg did.  But I believe players > coaches.. Countless examples of subpar coaches winning championships with great players but very few (if any) great coaches winning championships with subpar players.

I swear.. I'm halfway starting to believe that you believe that Art Briles could win a state championship with a junior high team.