Uvalde School Shooting, 21 Dead

[baddog]

13 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

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Mass murder, not suicide except the guy that did it. 

It was a poor attempt at a joke. I wasn't questioning your post.

 Lots of people jumped out of windows in ‘29.

[tvc184]

38 minutes ago, BEARCPA said:

My grandpa's deer lease was in Uvalde, and I have vivid memories of him bitching about Oasis' deer corn prices when he would forget to pick some up at Buc-cees on the way in lol. 

Yep, that is why I prefaced it with overpriced with a pretty cool store. They used to have a decent restaurant inside. It has been about 10 years since I’ve been there.

Buc-ee’s…. corn, restrooms, ice…. keep heading south.

[tvc184]

2 minutes ago, baddog said:

It was a poor attempt at a joke. I wasn't questioning your post.

 Lots of people jumped out of windows in ‘29.

Oops…. it went over my head. 

[Hagar]

So why this exhibition of insanity?  Here’s my two cents worth.  I’ll run a timeline.  American Christianity peaked in the 50’s (the good old days).  Then leveled off for two decades before starting its decline in the late 70’s. What preceded/started the decline?  As baddog pointed out, in 1962 they took prayer out of school.  Then in 1973 came Roe vs Wade.  I heard Rush, and others saying how abortion would cheapen life. In my ignorance I gave that an eye-roll.  Now I see how right they were (and wrong I was).  So with Christianity declining and life cheapen by abortion, we started our downhill trek.  Many had no moral compass.  We were set up for a perfect storm.  All we needed, like the weather, was a trigger mechanism.  Along comes Covid and the lockdown, which sent many spiraling out of control.  Add to that the Far Left who can’t recognize a woman from a man - think men can get pregnant - and encourage young children to question/change their genders.  Then overwhelming lawlessness in our big cities and voila, you’ve got plenty of trigger mechanisms.  The result being mayhem and evil prevail.  To picture it, imagine a weight scale.  The plate on the right is good and the plate on the left is evil.  In the 50’s the right plate is fullest and pulls down raising the left side.  As the above mentioned timeline plays out, weight is taken from the right & added to the left.  Now the left side is so heavy the current result is situations like Uvalde & Buffalo.  That’s my opinion.  You may agree or disagree, but you won’t change my mind.

[baddog]

What I want to know is how this guy bought so much ammo. 

[thetragichippy]

8 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

I think it was during the Obama administration that many conservative organizations tried to get 501(c)(3) non-profit tax exemptions and were repeatedly denied but when looking into it, similar liberal groups were easily certified.

I remember that.....

[Reagan]

Whitlock: We should focus on Salvador Ramos’ motivation rather than his mechanism for destruction!

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[Reagan]

Never Forget Democrats Want to Remove Cops from Schools!

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[BEARCPA]

20 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

I have no clue as to the sequence of events but what training are you suggesting that they forgot?

I am far from an expert in law enforcement or active shooter safety protocols, but common sense tells me that rule #1 should be for the officers to stop a potential threat from entering the school at all costs if they are in position to do so. All the accounts I've read say that the officers engaged with the shooter outside of the school, but he was somehow still able to go inside and kill all those kids after the confrontation. 

[baddog]

1 hour ago, Bobcat1 said:

Who is saying it's your fault? I also am a law abiding gun owner.  

You're NEVER going to lose your right to bear arms, it's in the constitution.

I'm saying and most people are also saying - There has to way to be able to regulate it better than we're doing now.  I don't have the answers, but something isn't working because ANOTHER school is being shot up.  

 

I'm also trying to research countries (comparable to size with the US) to see their mass shootings vs. their gun laws to compare. 

The people who are saying it is my fault are the ones who claim gun confiscation will disarm the bad guy. Who are they really disarming? 

[PN-G bamatex]

On 5/24/2022 at 5:37 PM, tvc184 said:

There is no compromise in my opinion.

It certainly isn’t a gun problem.  You could attempt to completely confiscate all guns but then the 2A goes out the window. A person or two could kill or maim 100 children in a couple of minutes having never possessed a firearm.

We have created a society that is now allowed to create such people. Can you ever put crap back in the horse once it’s out?

 Crazy people have always been around. Just look at 1927, almost 100 years ago, as an example. The difference is not that it could or hasn’t happened in the past but we have taken the reins off the horse and let him go free.

On the one hand, I completely agree with you that this is not a gun problem. The historical evidence of that is overwhelming. Gun ownership is at historic lows in the United States and, with a few exceptions, has been consistently declining for decades. Background checks have been required for every firearm purchase from a licensed dealer (i.e., easily 95% of gun purchases) since 1986. Similarly, the manufacture of automatic weapons for sale to civilians has been functionally banned since 1986. Schools have been "gun free zones" since 1990, a stark contrast to the 1950s, '60s and '70s when it was common to see rifles mounted on gun racks in school parking lots. The so-called (and poorly named) "assault weapons ban" was in place from 1994 to 2004.

And yet, despite all of those factors which would seemingly suggest school shootings are less likely now than they were prior to 1986, the first school shooting occurred in this country in 1998, and they've been happening with increasing frequency ever since. Anyone who concludes that more frequent school shootings are a function of increased access to guns, or at least increased access to guns that are arguably more deadly on account of increased rate of fire and/or magazines with greater capacity, is ignoring the clear historical evidence, which totally contradicts that assertion. I'm with you on that point.

On the other hand, I disagree with you about the possibility of reaching a compromise. Whatever the cause of America's school shooting problem may be - I have my own theories, which boil down to our ever-increasing social, moral and cultural degradation - I think the solution's simple: put a cop in every school in America, all day, every school day, from kindergarten through high school.

There are 8,731 schools in Texas. There are 78,318 licensed peace officers. The entry-level highway trooper in Texas, after training and the probationary period, makes $59,715 per year, which can increase up to $88,966 per year after twenty years assuming no promotion to sergeant or higher. Take the midpoint of that range, $74,340.50 per year, add in payroll taxes and benefits and the median, total cost of employment is probably right around $95,000 per year for a Texas highway patrolman.

Multiply that by 8,731 schools, and you get a total cost of $829.5M per year. Let's put that in perspective. As of right now, the Comptroller's office estimates that Texas will have a $12B surplus next session. The Texas Public Policy Foundation, which is the premier public policy think tank in Austin and employs a corps of extremely talented economists, estimates that the surplus will be closer to $15B. TPPF also believes that the state's rainy day fund will reach its cap and return up to an additional $10B to the general fund. In total, the Legislature may have as much as $25B in extra money burning a hole in its pocket when it meets in January. In other words, it can easily find that $1.66B (recall that Texas budgets on a biennial basis) to put a DPS trooper in every school in the state. And with over 78,000 licensed peace officers, I suspect there are quite a few municipal police officers and county sheriffs' deputies out there who would gladly take a raise to median trooper pay plus state benefits.

Moreover, there's a strong argument many of the state's school districts have no reason to wait for action or funding from the Legislature. We've all seen the increase in property tax appraisals. As bad as they are in Southeast Texas, they're exponentially worse in the state's major cities, suburbs and exurbs. I've seen appraisals in Travis and Williamson Counties that doubled in the space of two years. Most of the state's urban and suburban school districts are rolling in cash right now, as are their county sheriffs' offices and municipal police departments. I get why the state's rural school districts may struggle to implement school security measures on their own, but the inner city districts and the burbs would have no problem finding the money to make this happen.

There's already been legislation proposed along these lines. One of our local congressmen, Randy Weber, has a bill pending before Congress right now that would eliminate federal payroll and income taxes for retired peace officers returning to work to serve as armed security for schools. That alone would reduce the cost of employment significantly while also increasing the incentive for peace officers via significantly boosted take home pay. Plus, it brings retired peace officers back into play, increasing the state's supply of capable school resource officers.

This is not a politically charged solution. This solution has nothing to do with the Second Amendment, gun rights or gun control. It requires no confiscations or weapons bans, only money and manpower. The lone drawback is the cost, and with a Legislature and dozens of local governments across the state flush with cash, that's not an issue right now like it has been in the past.

The potential is there. The only question is whether the will to action is there, too. That would take a much longer post to address.

[thetragichippy]

Was debating someone on another page….I did a little research

1970 to 2022 school shooting stats

Most is California with 164

Second is Texas at 135

The fewest is North Dakota with 1

cali with strict laws, while Texas and ND have almost the same laws……

The difference I see is population……thoughts?

[Boyz N Da Hood]

4 hours ago, BEARCPA said:

In this case it seems like the police employed by Uvalde ISD completely forgot their training. I'm having a very difficult time figuring out how the shooter was able to step foot inside the school if he was confronted by multiple members of law enforcement.

Me n you both, definitely a head scratcher... he should've  been sprayed by bullets once he headed in the direction of rhe school 

[tvc184]

1 hour ago, BEARCPA said:

I am far from an expert in law enforcement or active shooter safety protocols, but common sense tells me that rule #1 should be for the officers to stop a potential threat from entering the school at all costs if they are in position to do so. All the accounts I've read say that the officers engaged with the shooter outside of the school, but he was somehow still able to go inside and kill all those kids after the confrontation. 

That is what I was talking about. If they were in position to do so. Do you have any information that they were in position failed to stop him?

I was chasing a felony suspect one time and he went over the fence of a fenced in school and broke into the school while I was chasing him. There were no kids there and he turned out not to be armed but we did not know that at the time. The guy was ahead of me however and running away.

So, were these officers in position to stop the guy? Do we have any information that their training failed at them?

If you want to see criticism, go behind the scenes in a shift meeting, a locker room, a secure police forum or on the back lot of the police station and watch officers criticize other officers. We aren’t exactly shy about calling them like we see them. We don’t  always do it in public but we typically don’t defend what we think is stupidity.

[tvc184]

20 minutes ago, 45thSucks said:

Me n you both, definitely a head scratcher... he should've  been sprayed by bullets once he headed in the direction of rhe school 

And those theoretical sprayed bullets would have gone where?

[tvc184]

1 hour ago, thetragichippy said:

Was debating someone on another page….I did a little research

1970 to 2022 school shooting stats

Most is California with 164

Second is Texas at 135

The fewest is North Dakota with 1

cali with strict laws, while Texas and ND have almost the same laws……

The difference I see is population……thoughts?

School shootings are probably not mass murders. I think if a guy accidentally shoots a gun in the parking lot, they call that a school shooting. In other cases might be one guy got mad at another guy and shot him in the leg.

I tend to think that such person-to-person shootings happen more in larger inner-city areas than in rural areas. ND is pretty rural. The entire state has roughly twice the population of Harding, Jefferson and Orange counties.

That is sometimes the problem with statistics. Many times the people that are anti-gun report how many gun deaths happen every year in the United States. What they call a gun deaths are not all homicides because it turns out that at least half of them are suicides. In some discussions however, the numbers are put out to imply that they are murders when in fact they are not.

I have not checked in the last year but in most years approximately 2 to 3 times as many people are murdered with hands and feet than there are with rifles.

Here is the FBI report on the known murders (criminal homicide) in the United States over a five-year period ending in 2019. Look at 2019 rifle murders, 364.

Now look at personal (hands, feet, etc.), strangulation (which is also Personal however you are not beaten or kicked to death) and blunt objects such as striking someone with a hammer, ain personal but the hand held weapon killed instead of the hand itself. So The numbers for being hit with a hammer, beaten, kicked or strangled comes to more than 1,200. Toss in knives and the total goes to almost 3,000.

Let’s see, 364 killed by those evil rifles and 1,200 with hands or blunt instruments held by the hand and 1,600 on sharp instruments held by the hand. So hands, feet or handheld items are 800% more likely to kill you than a rifle.

Is it the weapon that is the problem or the person?

So in 2019 we had 13,927 people murdered. If we could have saved the life of 100% of the people killed by a rifle, murder total and that year would drop to….. 13,563.

Wow, getting rid of rifle would have a huge impact!!! In reality, most of those killed with a rifle could have been killed with a pistol but the actor simply had a rifle available.

Therein lies the politics of gun control. If we could just get rid of those rifles and those high-capacity magazines……

 

[Boyz N Da Hood]

29 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

And those theoretical sprayed bullets would have gone where?

A cop with training I would hope they hit the suspect! If we don't have at least that confident in LE there lies another problem 

[tvc184]

Just now, 45thSucks said:

A cop with training I would hope they hit the suspect! If we don't have at least that confident in LE there lies another problem 

Out of curiosity, do you have any experience shooting man size targets with a handgun under a severe time constraint, while under extreme stress and then at other targets that are moving?

[LumRaiderFan]

5 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

Out of curiosity, do you have any experience shooting man size targets with a handgun under a severe time constraint, while under extreme stress and then at other targets that are moving?

He saw it in a movie…turned out fine.

[tvc184]

1 hour ago, PN-G bamatex said:

On the one hand, I completely agree with you that this is not a gun problem…..

I am not against any of that. I have said probably a couple of times in this thread, harden the schools, arm the teachers and if you want to, add police officers.

At least make it hard and when somebody does start the attempt at mass murder, at least cut down the casualties.

The point I hit is mainly at politicians and the news media that repeo the mantra that  we have to stop this from ever happening again and the fact is you cannot. You can minimize the impact.

Your numbers are a little flawed however.

Counting equipment, training and the stuff you’ve mentioned, every officer probably costs $125,000 a year. You say a trooper per school. Oooookay…..

It would be more like 3-4 per school so about $3-$4 Billion extra per year.

A single officer, working a single door and taking absolutely no break, even to go to the bathroom it’s what your numbers would entail. Realistically it would take at least 3 to 4 officers to secure a school somewhat effectively. Even that is just getting by. That does not account for sick days, vacation, mandatory training, etc.

 

[Boyz N Da Hood]

36 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

Out of curiosity, do you have any experience shooting man size targets with a handgun under a severe time constraint, while under extreme stress and then at other targets that are moving?

They confronted him b4 entering the school! SMFH seems like ppl are cherry picking the story.. quit making it fit your agenda and realize the cops dropped the ball and let the suspect enter the school.. he should've been tazed or something, next if that don't work shoot him.. protect the innocent children 

A psycho dude can shoot kids but our LE can't shoot him ?

And to answer your questions no

[PN-G bamatex]

2 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

I am not against any of that. I have said probably a couple of times in this thread, harden the schools, arm the teachers and if you want to, add police officers.

At least make it hard and when somebody does start the attempt at mass murder, at least cut down the casualties.

The point I hit is mainly at politicians and the news media that repeo the mantra that  we have to stop this from ever happening again and the fact is you cannot. You can minimize the impact.

Your numbers are a little flawed however.

Counting equipment, training and the stuff you’ve mentioned, every officer probably costs $125,000 a year. You say a trooper per school. Oooookay…..

It would be more like 3-4 per school so about $3-$4 Billion extra per year.

A single officer, working a single door and taking absolutely no break, even to go to the bathroom it’s what your numbers would entail. Realistically it would take at least 3 to 4 officers to secure a school somewhat effectively. Even that is just getting by. That does not account for sick days, vacation, mandatory training, etc.

 

I don't think you need an officer per door. I think one officer per campus is enough. That's partly based on the psychological impact.

The Uvalde shooter wasn't from Uvalde, only attended the high school there for a short time, and likely had no idea he'd encounter an officer on the campus of that elementary school. He very likely picked what he believed would be a totally defenseless target. In the end, he didn't meet much of a defense, sure, but do we really think he would have picked that elementary school out if he thought he'd come across any defense at all?

These shooters have a consistent pattern of picking defenseless targets, or at least what they perceive to be defenseless targets. Put a visible law enforcement presence on every campus in the state, even a minimal one, and I think you significantly reduce the odds of a shooter even attempting a massacre.

Your points regarding equipment, training and leave are well taken. Even so, the Legislature and the school districts in the state's population centers have the money available, through one avenue or another. PN-GISD doesn't have anywhere near the resources on a per pupil basis of a Round Rock or Lake Travis ISD, and still manages to keep four resource officers total on three of its campuses every day.

[tvc184]

Just now, 45thSucks said:

They confronted him b4 entering the school! SMFH

And what does that mean? They yelled at him 50 yards away? They put him on a wall and were frisking him?

Please let the rest of us know these details that you have. I am truly curious.  

[bullets13]

This story hurt me to hear about.  I teach at an elementary, and the idea of what those kids went through makes me sick to my stomach.  I’m staunchly pro-2A, but also want our kids to be safe in a place where they absolutely should be safe always.  So many of our students go to school and get to feel safe from domestic violence and abuse that they have to live with at home.  They should never have to worry about violence following them there.  I read through this whole thread, and there are a lot of things I agree with, some that I don’t.  I wholeheartedly support arming (willing) teachers, and also finding a way to have an officer at every school.  While it would not be a 100% preventative, it would greatly reduce the odds of someone choosing a school as a target, and if they still did, it would greatly reduce the odds that they pull off an effective attack.  Secure doors would also help.  There’s a video of this guy going into the school circulating online, and he literally just opened the door and walked in.  Our school is very serious about keeping doors locked, but they’re all glass and would be easily breached.  I would like to see that changed.  
 

While I don’t like to see a lot of gun legislation added, one law that I think would help to some degree is changing the laws to restrict the purchase of long guns, or at least long guns that can hold high capacity magazines to the age of 21.  We already do this with handguns.  If some of these kids get a few years to separate themselves from the angst, bullying, and hormone fueled stupidity of high school they might very well not make a decision to take innocent lives out of anger.  It will also provide 3 extra years for them to possibly get some help.  A lot of the symptoms of mental illness that families might hide or ignore will manifest when these kids graduate and have to start doing adult things, meaning others outside of the family might be able to do something.  And yes, I understand that someone can do a lot of damage with a shotgun, but I’d rather a potential killer have to painstakingly hand load 5 shells every few seconds rather than dropping a mag and reloading 30 rounds almost instantaneously.  One thing that nearly every school shooter has in common is that they’re under the age of 21.  Which leads me to my next point:

any parents who allow a child access to guns who then subsequently shoots up a school should be punished severely, especially if there were any warning signs whatsoever that the shooter had issues.  My kids hunt with me, and as they get a little older I’ll teach them how to handle and shoot firearms.  But all of my guns stay in a safe behind an oak door that they’ll never have a key to, minus my daily carry, which they also can’t get to.  There’s no excuse for a parent to allow a kid access to firearms if they know they’re unstable, and I’ve yet to see one of these shootings perpetrated by someone who hadn’t exhibited obvious warning signs.  Anyone who purchases a gun for a kid (an older friend, family member, etc.) should also have the book thrown at them if they use them in an attack.  I do believe that kids who hunt should be allowed access to them, including high capacity rifles, but better laws on the books putting the responsibility of the kids’ action with those guns would likely help parents take an honest look at their kids’ mental states before letting them use them.  
 

As for social media monitoring, I agree it’s a slippery slope.  I do believe if given that power then liberals would use any such law to disarm law abiding citizens.  That said, if someone actually makes direct threats, by all means put them on a list and prevent them from buying guns.  Anyone receiving psychiatric treatment and diagnosed with certain mental illnesses should not be allowed to purchase guns.  I also wouldn’t be opposed to some sort of law punishing anyone who knows about a direct threat in advance that doesn’t come forward.  It seems to be a pretty common theme that someone pops up after a shooting saying something like “he told me he was going to do it, but I didn’t actually think he was serious.”  

 I sincerely hope that we can figure out something as a society to stop these shootings.  Better mental health awareness, consequences for those who allow access to guns to mentally Ill people, and better school security is a great place to start.  I’m thankful to work for a district that allows teachers to carry, but there are still things I would like to see done to make us even safer.  There are nearly 140,000 schools in the US, and the idea that any law or policy can prevent something that occurs randomly at 1 or 2 of them every year or two is nonsensical.  But we can certainly do more to help people with mental illness and prepare schools to better handle and possibly stop a shooting if and when they happen.

[Boyz N Da Hood]

4 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

And what does that mean? They yelled at him 50 yards away? They put him on a wall and were frisking him?

Please let the rest of us know these details that you have. I am truly curious.  

He was engaged by the school LE.. he entered the backdoor

You can't even get in my son's school without going through parking lot security and being buzzed in through 2 doors 

More failures to protect innocent children