Uvalde School Shooting, 21 Dead

[LumRaiderFan]

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I agree with safety measures like this...I had said in an earlier post making school access similar to refineries in that anyone coming in could be monitored.

From the article:

Republican Tennessee Gov. Bill Lee signed an executive order aimed at enhancing school safety and guiding parents on how to weigh in on school building security on Monday.

Executive Order 97 creates a guide for parents on how to contact school administrators and local law enforcement to improve security. Lee called on schools to implement "simple practices," such as ensuring a single point of entry to the school and multiple points of exit.

[tvc184]

4 hours ago, LumRaiderFan said:

According to these guys, it makes it look like they could have responded the way they should have.

Makes me wonder why the DPS threw them under the bus so early when there was no way they had time to examine events like these guys did.

I have said it from the beginning on various forums, it is political. When the news media started asking very pointed questions that they did not have answers to, they should have simply shut up and said we don’t have the answer. But…. they wanted to look like they were in control  

It was an international news story. It took a long time for the officers to get in and instead of finding out what happened, competing Talking Heads from law-enforcement and the government such as the governor, started putting out what was essentially rumors.

I said it in this forum, I don’t remember a situation where so many people who are commanders were tripping over each other in order to get to the front of the line to point at the other guy.

Like the video I just posted said, they still need to get the facts And the officer steel might have made a terrible mistake. From what those two officers understand and have talk to some people inside, it does not appear to be nearly the critical mistakes that were claimed. The claimed information that the door could have been easily entered or that there were 19 cowardly police officers  that huddled  together in the hallway not knowing  what to do, appears to be complete nonsense.

[thetragichippy]

16 hours ago, tvc184 said:

Please take the time for this video. It is an hour long but take time to listen to the first 35 minutes. It is from two veteran officers from the DFW area with some on scene active shooter response including the five officers killed in Dallas. One is an expert in breaching doors.

For those who take time, let me know your thoughts after hearing it.

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It did not seem as long as it was. Good info. What the media failed to report on was the steel door and much effort it would take to open it. I knew a steel door is tough to break into, but never though about the way it opened. Thanks for sharing

[baddog]

 

[CardinalBacker]

19 hours ago, tvc184 said:

Utter nonsense. Accepting serious risks in the job is true. Committing suicide is not.

I can play out a scenario in my mind where we could easily get through the door, several officers are going to rush in like we have been taught, (which is extremely dangerous but hey, it’s what we signed up for) and we take out the bad with a known risk of injury or death. Since I get to pick my thoughts, it is easy to assault the room. 

I have practiced it hundred of times and spending 10 years old swat, have actually done it few times in real life.

That’s easy since I get to pick my own fantasy. What happened in this case is the big question. I have repeated this probably more than a dozen times in different forums  but….. it was a steel door in a steel frame which was deadbolted. I also have read but not confirmed that the door opened outward. It would be extremely difficult to break the door in if the door opened inward and almost impossible if the door opened out right.

So for any officer who makes the claim that he would simply go in, OK, how will you get in? This  wasn’t a guy behind a wooden bedroom door. It was a steel reinforced door with a guy on the other side with a high power rifle with rounds that would likely go through the door and kill someone on the other side. How many minutes and how many officers are going to die by trying to get into this nearly impossible task? One officer pries on the door and a shot killed. To office re rush up to pull him away and two more move up to try to pry open the door. They are shot and go down. So now we have three officers down and two want to try to get into the room. How long does this continue and how many officers are not breaching the room, will continue to die for the sake of claiming to have tried to do something?

BUT……. maybe they had the means to get in within a few seconds. Maybe the Border Patrol had explosive charges to make an explosive entry. Maybe they had some hydraulic door breaching  tools so they could potentially get in quick enough. There might be a very good reason for waiting for the key to get in because that might have been the only practical means of entry. Then the question becomes, when did the key arrive?

That is a lot of maybes and what ifs. Any officer that claims he would’ve gone in is doing so in the fantasy played out in his mind where he gets to set the scenario. MAYBE that was actually possible but do we know? Has anybody seen any evidence that state how the officers could have gotten in earlier? I mean you don’t have to prove it to me in a court of law, simply come out and make the claim. Let the DPS commander say we now know that the key was on scene within three minutes and the BP had the ability to make explosive entry eventually within about 10 minutes of the incident starting but we held back. Okay, now we are getting somewhere.

Monday morning quarterbacks and Chairborne Rangers all know the answers, I just wish they would share them with the rest of us.

 

I've obviously never been in Robb Elementary, but practically every modern commercial/industrial/educational building has a suspended ceiling... What would stop a swat team or whatever from scaling an interior wall and making entry that way?  Even if this was impossible in Uvalde, would a tactical unit consider such an attempt to breach that way under barricaded door circumstances?

[tvc184]

3 hours ago, CardinalBacker said:

I've obviously never been in Robb Elementary, but practically every modern commercial/industrial/educational building has a suspended ceiling... What would stop a swat team or whatever from scaling an interior wall and making entry that way?  Even if this was impossible in Uvalde, would a tactical unit consider such an attempt to breach that way under barricaded door circumstances?

Yes, they should consider all possibilities. I have practiced with my team on assaulting a bus if it was stationary sneaking up in a blind spot, hitting the master kill switch in the rear engine compartment (might be tougher with EV) and having swat officers run and brace themselves against the bus while other officers use them for a ladder and fire into the bus through the windows while another team assaults from the door. We have assaulted ships and docks from ground and water and so on.

Assault from the top is extremely dangerous from a suspended ceiling with no support. You can’t go in a room or two away and creep up through an attic or crawl space. It would require climbing a ladder or several and rolling into a room blind with a guy with a high power rifle waiting. You could lose four officers almost immediately and never completely make entry.

But I would guess that they looked at every option including sheet rock walls.

It is much easier to discuss than it is to perform. All of those take specialized equipment. We don’t know what equipment they had, if any. As the video I posted said, it was a 40 minute or more gap where there were no shots fired. At that point it is no longer an active shooter because there is no longer any active shooting, no matter what the media says or the talking head commanders and speculators.

[tvc184]

4 hours ago, thetragichippy said:

It did not seem as long as it was. Good info. What the media failed to report on was the steel door and much effort it would take to open it. I knew a steel door is tough to break into, but never though about the way it opened. Thanks for sharing

I was reading another sports forum a couple of days ago. One of the former member chairborne experts posted a video of a fire fighter going through a steel door within about five seconds. it was a demonstration on how they attack fires.

I watched it and just like the police officer breacher in the video said, it takes one guy to set the Halligan tool and another guy to use a hammer to drive the wedge into the extremely narrow door gap. you simply cannot do it with your hand. As the police officer said you might have to do this several times before you could actually make entry. They’re being video that he chairborne ranger expert show, the fire fighter was able to do it in about five seconds. Why so much faster??? 

The simulated deadbolt that they showed was a 1/4 inch piece of wood. Yep, A firefighter broke a 1/4”x2” board and the expert said that is proof that the steel reinforced door with a 2 inch deadbolt could’ve been entered in five seconds.

You can’t make this stuff up. It is amazing how far someone will come up with some completely nonsensical excuse to criticize the officers.

[tvc184]

Reading such nonsense still being put out, I think I might have found the answer and everybody knows it or has seen it previously. I just watched some alternate news site they put out of a video from yesterday it shows the same woman in the same video and is essentially making the claim that she was able to get past the dangerous situation where the office was able to. Utter garbage and an outright lie. Then the news that has been making the rounds, apparently one of the guys that made the original 911 calls from the funeral home, after he ducked rounds from an AR15, went inside to get his gun and came back out and could have stopped it at that point but the police would not let him.

I guess this guy was going to get his 9 mm pistol and killed a guy in the street in a gun fight like the opening scene from Gunsmoke. What a true stupidity. And I don’t know if the stupidity comes more from the guy or the media it now has this expert claiming that it could have been injured at that point. Disregard the fact that the guy was already in the school by that time…

Back to the reasoning. Like a lot of studies, they were not looking for answers or research. They came to a conclusion ahead of time, the police made huge mistakes. Then they sent out to find evidence to back up an opinion. I’ll look here’s an expert woman that drove for 40 minutes to get to the school and she knows more in the state and federal tactical teams. Here is a funeral home director who was denied stopping the incident before 19 children were killed.

And the media runs with it…. 

[thetragichippy]

58 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

Reading such nonsense still being put out, I think I might have found the answer and everybody knows it or has seen it previously. I just watched some alternate news site they put out of a video from yesterday it shows the same woman in the same video and is essentially making the claim that she was able to get past the dangerous situation where the office was able to. Utter garbage and an outright lie. Then the news that has been making the rounds, apparently one of the guys that made the original 911 calls from the funeral home, after he ducked rounds from an AR15, went inside to get his gun and came back out and could have stopped it at that point but the police would not let him.

I guess this guy was going to get his 9 mm pistol and killed a guy in the street in a gun fight like the opening scene from Gunsmoke. What a true stupidity. And I don’t know if the stupidity comes more from the guy or the media it now has this expert claiming that it could have been injured at that point. Disregard the fact that the guy was already in the school by that time…

Back to the reasoning. Like a lot of studies, they were not looking for answers or research. They came to a conclusion ahead of time, the police made huge mistakes. Then they sent out to find evidence to back up an opinion. I’ll look here’s an expert woman that drove for 40 minutes to get to the school and she knows more in the state and federal tactical teams. Here is a funeral home director who was denied stopping the incident before 19 children were killed.

And the media runs with it…. 

What I don’t understand is why we are letting the media run a narrative with no consequence. You would think rating would play a factor (look at Fox versus everyone else), but they seem to have doubled down. I really thought they were off the bad cop thing and now this…..really sad times. 

[tvc184]

1 hour ago, thetragichippy said:

What I don’t understand is why we are letting the media run a narrative with no consequence. You would think rating would play a factor (look at Fox versus everyone else), but they seem to have doubled down. I really thought they were off the bad cop thing and now this…..really sad times. 

It was self-inflicted. It’s already being said but this is been a public relations disaster with police commanders giving opposite bits of information. Call me if they should know better. They’ve been on the job for years and they’ve all been to public relations schools. I’ve been to the schools. They tell you what you should say, when you should put the information out, confirm it,  etc. Once you put out false information and retract it, you’ve now giving people the reason to believe that everything that follows is a cover-up.

[baddog]

What kills me is how the dust hasn’t even settled before the finger pointing begins. I can’t believe an officer, knowing children are being executed, would somehow let that happen. Most people will jump in front of a car to pull a kid out of harms way, sacrificing their life to do so. It unbelievable how the police are portrayed to the masses. 

[baddog]

Do you still trust a Democrat when
it comes to gun control? If you do
then you really are stupid!
Translate post
The US has the 3rd highest murder rate in
the world. If you remove:
1. Chicago
2. Detroit
3. Washington DC
4. St. Louis
5. Philadelphia
The US is then 189th out of 193 countries in
the world. All five cities have strict gun
control laws and are controlled by
Democrats. Fact-check it.

[Unwoke]

30 minutes ago, baddog said:

Do you still trust a Democrat when
it comes to gun control? If you do
then you really are stupid!
Translate post
The US has the 3rd highest murder rate in
the world. If you remove:
1. Chicago
2. Detroit
3. Washington DC
4. St. Louis
5. Philadelphia
The US is then 189th out of 193 countries in
the world. All five cities have strict gun
control laws and are controlled by
Democrats. Fact-check it.

Where you at Bobcat? Cat got your tongue? Lol

[tvc184]

3 hours ago, baddog said:

What kills me is how the dust hasn’t even settled before the finger pointing begins. I can’t believe an officer, knowing children are being executed, would somehow let that happen. Most people will jump in front of a car to pull a kid out of harms way, sacrificing their life to do so. It unbelievable how the police are portrayed to the masses. 

They wouldn’t which is what is so disgusting.  The news is using video mostly of two people (mother and funeral home employee) as their experts on tactics, capabilities, gear and ability.

 I guess next time CNN or Fox News reports on some US military action, they can consult a random high school freshman as their experts to see if the strategy is correct.  

[Reagan]

[LumRaiderFan]

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I'll start by saying I can't imagine what this teacher, that lost 11 students went through.

He is now blaming the police response for what happened.

He had students in his classroom, they heard shots, started to hide under desks and he said he turned around and he (Ramos) was standing in his classroom.

After all that we have heard about the metal doors that would be very difficult to breech, why weren't they locked?

So a door was left open that the shooter came through and the classroom doesn't look like it was locked but the teacher, along with many others, is saying the police and not enough gun laws are to blame.

 

[SmashMouth]

5 hours ago, LumRaiderFan said:

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I'll start by saying I can't imagine what this teacher, that lost 11 students went through.

He is now blaming the police response for what happened.

He had students in his classroom, they heard shots, started to hide under desks and he said he turned around and he (Ramos) was standing in his classroom.

After all that we have heard about the metal doors that would be very difficult to breech, why weren't they locked?

So a door was left open that the shooter came through and the classroom doesn't look like it was locked but the teacher, along with many others, is saying the police and not enough gun laws are to blame.

 

It's a comedy of errors. I am sure a culmination of things are to blame. Whether you be a Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Independent, etc., this will continue to happen if the Mental Health issues are not addressed as one of the problems. I have several rifles and pistols (including AR's) with higher capacity magazines. I don't plan on giving them up either. But if there was an extended wait period (say 2 weeks) to get those or a mental evaluation to get those, I would be ok with that. If I could no longer drop off lunch to my kid at school and the schools were locked down, I would be ok with that. It might slow things down, but it's not going to stop the assaults. Address the mental health issues of these individuals and the harms of social media, the degradation of the nuclear family and the lack of faith-based upbringing in our society today, and you might be able to do something about it.

[LumRaiderFan]

17 minutes ago, SmashMouth said:

It's a comedy of errors. I am sure a culmination of things are to blame. Whether you be a Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Independent, etc., this will continue to happen if the Mental Health issues are not addressed as one of the problems. I have several rifles and pistols (including AR's) with higher capacity magazines. I don't plan on giving them up either. But if there was an extended wait period (say 2 weeks) to get those or a mental evaluation to get those, I would be ok with that. If I could no longer drop off lunch to my kid at school and the schools were locked down, I would be ok with that. It might slow things down, but it's not going to stop the assaults. Address the mental health issues of these individuals and the harms of social media, the degradation of the nuclear family and the lack of faith-based upbringing in our society today, and you might be able to do something about it.

I don’t disagree at all that folks around someone like this should act when there are signs, usually there are some, in this case there were plenty.  When I say act, all someone can really do is try and get them some help, until they’ve actually done something, there’s not much that can be done legally.

That being said, these guys are going to keep coming and the best way to protect the kids are to make the schools harder to enter if you have no business being there and when someone still gets in (which they will) have facilities (difficult to enter doors) and protocols in place (keep them locked) and on campus police as well as trained teachers that are armed. (costs money, I know)

Make a school campus a very dangerous place for the bad guy…cops can’t be everywhere, wish they could, but they can’t.

[Dirty_but_Dazzling]

This I do know.  Blaming the NRA for school (any) shootings is like blaming triple AAA for drunk driving.

COME ON MAN!

[SmashMouth]

4 hours ago, LumRaiderFan said:

I don’t disagree at all that folks around someone like this should act when there are signs, usually there are some, in this case there were plenty.  When I say act, all someone can really do is try and get them some help, until they’ve actually done something, there’s not much that can be done legally.

That being said, these guys are going to keep coming and the best way to protect the kids are to make the schools harder to enter if you have no business being there and when someone still gets in (which they will) have facilities (difficult to enter doors) and protocols in place (keep them locked) and on campus police as well as trained teachers that are armed. (costs money, I know)

Make a school campus a very dangerous place for the bad guy…cops can’t be everywhere, wish they could, but they can’t.

I agree with “hardening” schools too. But what happens when some wing nut shows up to the football game at homecoming or any other scenario outside the walls of the school and decides to go on a rampage?

[tvc184]

3 hours ago, Dirty_but_Dazzling said:

This I do know.  Blaming the NRA for school (any) shootings is like blaming triple AAA for drunk driving.

COME ON MAN!

 Correct…. but let’s not include evil companies like Exxon Mobile that enable drunk drivers. 

[tvc184]

6 minutes ago, SmashMouth said:

I agree with “hardening” schools too. But what happens when some wing nut shows up to the football game at homecoming or any other scenario outside the walls of the school and decides to go on a rampage?

Sits off a few hundred meters away and sprays a packed football stadium…..

 Then drives away. 

[SmashMouth]

5 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

Sits off a few hundred meters away and sprays a packed football stadium…..

 Then drives away. 

Exactly. Or even unloads from the bottom of the stands into the seated spectators. By and large, these attackers know in the backs of their minds they’re probably not going to survive the event. 

[LumRaiderFan]

1 hour ago, SmashMouth said:

I agree with “hardening” schools too. But what happens when some wing nut shows up to the football game at homecoming or any other scenario outside the walls of the school and decides to go on a rampage?

At a game in Texas I’m sure they would be dealing with some folks shooting back.  How do your keep it from happening if a nut has made up his mind?  You can’t.

And I don’t believe waiting periods and new laws will stop them either.

If someone comes up with any that actually work I would be all for it.

[Unwoke]

I’m not going to cut off my own penis in order to stop other rapes.

I’m not going to give up my own car to stop others drunk driving.

I’m not going to keep my own hands in my pockets to stop other assaults.

And I’m not giving up my own guns because others commit murders.