Port Neches Officers Shoot, Kill Man

[bullets13]

This is the hidden content, please

• Sign In
• or
• Sign Up

[tvc184]

Stolen car, chase, rams police car, comes out with a gun…..

That is what I have read. Obviously we do not know if that is true but more than likely there is video of the whole thing. Assuming it is true, especially the part about stepping out with a gun, then it would likely be a lawful use of force.

Even if you want to run or fight to get away, to step out with a gun in hand after committing a felony is almost a guaranteed conclusion.

[1989NDN]

Devil's Advocate...I'm not jumping to any conclusions or saying anyone did anything wrong, just playing Devil's Advocate...why shoot if he is not shooting at you?  Does simply getting out of a vehicle with a gun give a law enforcement officer the right to discharge his/her weapon?  I get it...felony, car chase, collision with a law enforcement vehicle...split second decisions.  Just asking for the sake of the discussion.

[5GallonBucket]

47 minutes ago, 1989NDN said:

Devil's Advocate...I'm not jumping to any conclusions or saying anyone did anything wrong, just playing Devil's Advocate...why shoot if he is not shooting at you?  Does simply getting out of a vehicle with a gun give a law enforcement officer the right to discharge his/her weapon?  I get it...felony, car chase, collision with a law enforcement vehicle...split second decisions.  Just asking for the sake of the discussion.

Yes!!!!!

There is no discussion needed.

LEOs are needed…..apply…..then ask that question?

When you get pulled over for speeding do you have your pistol in your hand as the LEO walks up?

[baddog]

1 hour ago, 1989NDN said:

Devil's Advocate...I'm not jumping to any conclusions or saying anyone did anything wrong, just playing Devil's Advocate...why shoot if he is not shooting at you?  Does simply getting out of a vehicle with a gun give a law enforcement officer the right to discharge his/her weapon?  I get it...felony, car chase, collision with a law enforcement vehicle...split second decisions.  Just asking for the sake of the discussion.

Dead cops let them shoot first. 

[KF89]

Heading should be wanted criminal got himself killed acting ignorant, threatening others lives with stolen vehicle & gun. Give the officers a raise & promotion for doing a fine job.

[baddog]

Guy steals a car ( that’s armed and dangerous to a cop and a throw down for sure), on top of that, he rams a cop car ( that’s a felonious assault on a police officer with a deadly weapon which can be fired upon), then he brandishes a gun and cops shoot him. Now, we are going to protect this pos and question the cops’ response? This world has gone crazy. This punk did everything he could to get killed, yet society sides with him and attempts to blame the cops. Personally, I think he deserved to die.

[tvc184]

3 hours ago, 1989NDN said:

Devil's Advocate...I'm not jumping to any conclusions or saying anyone did anything wrong, just playing Devil's Advocate...why shoot if he is not shooting at you?  Does simply getting out of a vehicle with a gun give a law enforcement officer the right to discharge his/her weapon?  I get it...felony, car chase, collision with a law enforcement vehicle...split second decisions.  Just asking for the sake of the discussion.

In that situation, in my opinion, absolutely. 

[tvc184]

3 hours ago, 1989NDN said:

Devil's Advocate...I'm not jumping to any conclusions or saying anyone did anything wrong, just playing Devil's Advocate...why shoot if he is not shooting at you?  Does simply getting out of a vehicle with a gun give a law enforcement officer the right to discharge his/her weapon?  I get it...felony, car chase, collision with a law enforcement vehicle...split second decisions.  Just asking for the sake of the discussion.

Let’s play devils’s advocate or my favorite game, “what if”.

Let’s forget the felony car chase, let’s forget the ramming of a police car….

An officer on patrol sees a very minor violation like maybe a pedestrian walking on the edge of the roadway when there’s a sidewalk. The officer  gets out of his car and tells the guy, can you come over here for a minute. The guy starts walking toward the officer without saying anything and pulls out a knife as he continues to approach the officer or he looks at the officer and reaches in his pocket and pulls out a pistol.

In either situation, the officer might be dead within the next two seconds. Should officer before he responds, ask the guy if he really intends to do anything?

In a similar “what if”, it is 2 AM and someone is kicking on your front door and you’re afraid the door is about to be broken and allow entry. A guy is screaming let me in. In self defense you fire through the door as the door is almost but not quite open. The guy is now dead. Clearly this is a case of self defense under Texas law.

BUT…… what if?

You find out after he is dead that it is  your drunk neighbor who came home late, had the wrong house and simply thinks his wife locked him out of the house?

Should you now go to jail for murder?

[tvc184]

3 hours ago, 1989NDN said:

Devil's Advocate...I'm not jumping to any conclusions or saying anyone did anything wrong, just playing Devil's Advocate...why shoot if he is not shooting at you?  Does simply getting out of a vehicle with a gun give a law enforcement officer the right to discharge his/her weapon?  I get it...felony, car chase, collision with a law enforcement vehicle...split second decisions.  Just asking for the sake of the discussion.

I honestly think that you pose a very good question however. Why can officers or other people shoot first and ask questions later in “some” self defense situations?

The simple answer is, because the law says so. It is not nearly unlimited as there are restrictions but it does not depend on you saying (although often repeated even by the police) you were in fear of your life. In fact in Chapter 9 of the Penal Code/Self Defense, it never mentions “fear”. It goes by a reasonable belief of a person in that situation. 

[tvc184]

Back to 1989NDN’s excellent question on the use of deadly force. Is it justified and if so, why? He is more opinion.  This is long and tapped (not typed) out on an iPhone so please don’t be too harsh on tpyos or words it don’t seem to fit.  
 

 

In Texas self defense is in Chapter 9 of them Penal Code. The actual title of the chapter is Justification Excluding Criminal Responsibility. That is exactly what self-defense is. It is an act that technically is a crime but the situation makes it lawful or a person is not criminally responsible.

Immediately after the first section in chapter 9 which is definitions, we go to this very important part:

“Sec. 9.02. JUSTIFICATION AS A DEFENSE. It is a defense to prosecution that the conduct in question is justified under this chapter”.

So right out of the box we see that anything in Chapter 9 is considered a “defense to prosecution”. 

Okay but what the heck does “defense to prosecution” mean? 

There are defenses written into law that can be basically exemptions from prosecution. They are “exceptions” which mean that the law simply does not apply to that situation plus defenses and affirmative defenses. We need to look at a “defense to prosecution” since that appliance to this entire chapter.

In Chapter 2 it says this about a defense to prosecution:

“(b) The prosecuting attorney is not required to negate the existence of a defense in the accusation charging commission of the offense. (c) The issue of the existence of a defense is not submitted to the jury unless evidence is admitted supporting the defense. (d) If the issue of the existence of a defense is submitted to the jury, the court shall charge that a reasonable doubt on the issue requires that the defendant be acquitted”. 

We see in (b) that the DA is not even required to address a defense. In other words he does not have to bring up that there might be a defense to prosecution. It is up to the defendant to bring up the defense and evidence to support the defense.  In (c) there has to be some evidence of the defense in order for the jury to hear it and deliberated it. A person can’t just say, this law doesn’t apply to me because I have a defense. The defendant has to produce some evidence (and testimony is evidence) to support the claim. If evidence is brought up and submitted to the jury, we go to what I think is the most important part. Under (d) it shows that any reasonable doubt for the defense and it “requires that the defendant be acquitted”. So if a person brings up a defense to prosecution as far as self-defense, he does not have to prove self-defense.  The DA is required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that lawful self-defense did not exist. So if you shoot someone and get prosecuted but you have a witness(es) and/or some other evidence showing there was a valid reason to shoot the person, you do not have to prove that is true. The DA has to prove it is not true beyond a reasonable doubt. There used to be a saying when I was a kid playing baseball, a tie goes to the runner. The ball has to beat the runner to the bag for there to be an out. In this case the tie goes to the defendant. Let’s say the DA has some evidence that it was not self-defense but the defendant has also brought up good evidence showing that it was self-defense. If the DA can’t clearly win the case beyond a reasonable doubt that no reasonable self-defense existed, the law says it requires the defendant be acquitted.

Now what about deadly force?

In Chapter 9, Section 9.32 deadly force is justified;

“(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:”. 

The “actor” has the same meaning as suspect or the person accused. 

So whose reasonable opinion matters? As we can see in the law it is the (actor) person using the deadly force in claimed self defense. The law here is basically saying that you have to look at it through the eyes of the person using the force. Was it reasonable from the viewpoint of the person using the deadly force? What would a reasonable person believe faced with the same situation?

You obviously can’t use deadly force for just any reason. There are two reasons listed. The first and only one we are concerned with in this discussion is: 

“(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force;”. 

So this is clear, to stop the other person from using deadly force against you. But what is deadly force? In Section 9.01(3) it says:

“.(3) "Deadly force" means force that is intended or known by the actor to cause, or in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing, death or serious bodily injury.” 

So deadly force is force that is capable of causing death OR… OR… OR… only Serious Bodily Injury. What is SBI?

For that we have to go back to Chapter 1 under definitions. 

In 1.07 it says:

“(46) "Serious bodily injury" means bodily injury that creates a substantial risk of death or that causes death, serious permanent disfigurement, or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ.”

Most people assume deadly force means death or could cause death but it is just as much any serious permanent disfigurement or the protracted (extended) loss of any bodily member or organ. So if someone is trying to break the bones in your hand, could a jury reasonably believe that your arm might be in a cast for maybe six weeks? Would that be the protracted loss of a bodily member? I would say losing most of the use of an arm for a month and a half fits that definition but it is up to a jury based on the evidence given at the trial . Something like knocking someone’s eye out would obviously be the loss of a bodily organ. If someone hits you in the face so severely that your face swole up for about a month and you could not see out of one of your eyes that entire time, would that be the protracted loss of an organ? These are questions that injury must answer because it is their decision. 

After a trial a judge reads the “charge” and gives definitions such as I have and a lot more. It is up to a jury to apply those definitions and laws to the case. 

The important part of this is, you can use deadly force for protection even if someone is not trying to only kill you. If you have the reasonable belief that someone is trying to commit serious bodily injury against you, deadly force is possible as self defense. You don’t have to allow somebody to break your arm or your leg just because that does not usually cause death. Those injuries are deadly force and the law allows deadly force to defend against deadly force. 

So let’s put all of this together using the law.

You’re justified in using deadly force against another if you reasonably believe the person is trying to use deadly force against you. Remember that deadly force does not necessarily have to cause death but could be a reasonable belief that it might cause serious bodily injury.

An example is one time we were fighting a guy probably 25 years ago. The suspect bit an officer’s thumb and would not let go and basically seemed like he was trying to bite it off. The officer used his flashlight to hit the guy in the head which in itself can be considered deadly force. So there was an internal investigation on whether the officer had the justification to use deadly force against the suspect. If I remember correctly a sergeant was reading the report and called the force into question. The officer made a mistake….. by not documenting what happened. He came to me for advice wondering why he was being investigated. To him it seemed easily justified. I said exactly what happened, he. did not document why hec used force. I asked the officer, what did you think when the guy was biting down with all of his force on your thumb. He told me he thought that he was going lose his thumb or at least break it. Okay….. is biting your thumb off or breaking it considered serious bodily injury? Absolutely. The officer’s report (and he was a rookie of less than a year) said the guy bit my thumb so I hit him in the head. Okay, biting a person does not justify deadly force. Trying to bite your thumb off or break it does. He did a sworn statement explaining what happened and he was cleared, as he should have been. Remember that he does not have to prove that the guy might have broken his thumb. He had to have a reasonable belief from his viewpoint. 

So now we come this case where two officers who are chasing a stolen car who intentionally or unintentionally rammed a police car. The suspect is doing everything he can to escape from being charged with a felony. He then steps out of the car with gun in hand.

Is there a reasonable belief at that point that the man in a stolen car who got out with a gun was attempting or going to attempt to use deadly force against the officers?

If a reasonable person in the officers’ situation would say yes, then deadly force is lawful in my opinion. Also remember again that the officers or anyone else for that matter, does not have to prove that the other person was actually going to use deadly force. For the district attorney to prosecute the case successfully against the officers it would have to proven beyond a reasonable doubt that after a high-speed chase (a felony) in a stolen car (a felony), the guy jumping out of the car with a gun in hand was not a reasonable threat to the officers.

If those are the facts of the case, it is my opinion that this is fairly clear cut. I believe if anyone of us was in that chase and given a duty to apprehend the suspect in the stolen car, when he rammed a police car and then jumped out with a gun, would any of you think you’re in danger at that point? Would you be willing to have a discussion with the guy to see what his intent was?

Also note, you don’t see anywhere in the law where it says you were in fear of your life. 

[bullets13]

12 hours ago, 1989NDN said:

Devil's Advocate...I'm not jumping to any conclusions or saying anyone did anything wrong, just playing Devil's Advocate...why shoot if he is not shooting at you?  Does simply getting out of a vehicle with a gun give a law enforcement officer the right to discharge his/her weapon?  I get it...felony, car chase, collision with a law enforcement vehicle...split second decisions.  Just asking for the sake of the discussion.

I’m decent with a pistol, and I can fire a full magazine (15 rounds) in 7-8 seconds, maybe even a little quicker.  At a fairly close range (let’s say the distance between the car doors of two vehicles that are touching nose to nose, such as in this instance), even when shooting for speed rather than accuracy, the majority of those 15 rounds will land in a grouping not much larger than a saucer plate.  A human torso is probably 12-15x the size of a saucer.  A human head is 1.5x the size of a saucer. Even with a moving a target, some, if not many of those 15 rounds are going to hit what I’m aiming at.  I’m not telling you these things to brag.  I know many people who shoot better than me.  I’m telling you this to explain why a police officer is absolutely not going to wait for someone to shoot at him before he starts to shoot.  Even if the criminal is a bad shot it only takes one lucky round to end an officer’s life.  if he’s even marginally skilled with a pistol, especially inside 30 ft, the odds of an officer getting hit is much too high for him to wait and see if a criminal is planning on using the weapon or not.  Far too often people expect police officers to do things that create unnecessary added risk to an already incredibly dangerous job in order to avoid hurting or killing dumb criminals making stupid choices.  A few examples:

1.  Police should wait for someone to shoot at them before they pull the trigger. 

2. police should aim for people’s legs so they can “stop the threat without killing anyone.”

3. police should shoot one or two times and then stop and see if the criminal is giving up.  If the criminal is still shooting at them, then police can shoot again. 

4. police should always try to use a tazer first when faced with a deadly weapon.  

what it all boils down to is that police officers don’t have to put the safety and well-being of criminals who are in a position to hurt or kill them ahead of their own.  

[tvc184]

Bullets reminded me of an exercise we did in the police academy. One cadet playing the part of the officer and had his handgun pointed at a police officer/actor acting like the bad guy. They were probably 10 feet apart. The actor bad guy had a handgun also but it was pointing to the ground with his arm completely extended by his side. 

 The scenario was the officer had the bad guy at gunpoint. The bad guy had the gun in his hand but like I said, it was pointing at the ground and his arm for the extended downward. If the bad guy ever flinched, the cop was supposed to shoot him.

Every time the bad guy won. Reaction time is too slow. Even if you have the drop on the other guy. The person  that makes the first move will likely get the kill shot off,  not which one has the gun already on target. 

[1989NDN]

tvc184...thorough answer, well explained...I hope the local media follows-up and has a story about the autopsy findings so you (we) can continue examining the facts and putting the pieces of the puzzle together.  CSI on a message board.  You should teach at a local college.  Insightful information that many locals could benefit from.  Peace.

[tvc184]

3 hours ago, 1989NDN said:

tvc184...thorough answer, well explained...I hope the local media follows-up and has a story about the autopsy findings so you (we) can continue examining the facts and putting the pieces of the puzzle together.  CSI on a message board.  You should teach at a local college.  Insightful information that many locals could benefit from.  Peace.

I teach college classes in the police academy. They get actual college hours. Like a Criminal Justice class such as the Code of Criminal Procedure might be a 3 college hour class but instead of 3 hours a week for a semester, they get 40 hours in 1 week.

I have or currently teach regularly in (my main/favorite) Arrest, Search and Seizure which is mostly constitutional law, Penal Code, firearms, tactical firearms and Patrol Procedures which is officer safety,,apprehension of criminals, handling disturbances and so on.

I have been guest lecturer in criminal Justice at Lamar Port Arthur and at post graduate psychology class at Lamar Beaumont.

I also cook pretty good Pozole, Indian Butter Chicken, Korean Budae Jjigae, Chinese Mapo Tofu, Gumbo and  Chili.   

[tvc184]

Of the two officers involved, I trained one and supervised the other. 

[SmashMouth]

On 7/7/2022 at 12:52 PM, tvc184 said:

I teach college classes in the police academy. They get actual college hours. Like a Criminal Justice class such as the Code of Criminal Procedure might be a 3 college hour class but instead of 3 hours a week for a semester, they get 40 hours in 1 week.

I have or currently teach regularly in (my main/favorite) Arrest, Search and Seizure which is mostly constitutional law, Penal Code, firearms, tactical firearms and Patrol Procedures which is officer safety,,apprehension of criminals, handling disturbances and so on.

I have been guest lecturer in criminal Justice at Lamar Port Arthur and at post graduate psychology class at Lamar Beaumont.

I also cook pretty good Pozole, Indian Butter Chicken, Korean Budae Jjigae, Chinese Mapo Tofu, Gumbo and  Chili.   

I’m very intrigued about the police work, but tell me more of this Indian Butter Chicken. Sounds delicious!

[tvc184]

11 minutes ago, SmashMouth said:

I’m very intrigued about the police work, but tell me more of this Indian Butter Chicken. Sounds delicious!

I have read that Indian butter chicken is the favorite “restaurant” meal in India and United Kingdom.

It is almost stunningly good BUT…. it is a mild curry dish and the word curry turns some people off. This is a very mild curry and if somebody did not know what they are eating and you did not tell them, they might not know they were eating a curry dish.

There is a very similar dish called Tikka Masala.

It has lots of butter and lots of cream in a tomato sauce. Generally I am not a huge fan of tomato sauces. I will certainly eat some but isn’t a top 5 kind of dish for me. Butter chicken is so heavy in butter and cream however that the tomato sauce is almost like a background flavor like a seasoning rather than the main body of the sauce.

I guess you could make it with anything but traditionally it is made with boneless and skinless chicken thighs.

 Because it typically uses Kashmiri chili for color and a tad bit if flavor, you can tone down the heat to almost nothing. I think regular paprika would probably be the same with no heat. Kashmiri chili in my opinion is about 30% as hot as cayenne.

It is usually served over rice or naan bread.

If you want to see what it looks like, here’s a webpage with several pictures. It is usually a light orange-ish looking gravy/sauce from a significant amount of cream and butter as compared to tomato sauce.

 

This is the hidden content, please

• Sign In
• or
• Sign Up

[SmashMouth]

7 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

I have read that Indian butter chicken is the favorite “restaurant” meal in India and United Kingdom.

It is almost stunningly good BUT…. it is a mild curry dish and the word curry turns some people off. This is a very mild curry and if somebody did not know what they are eating and you did not tell them, they might not know they were eating a curry dish.

There is a very similar dish called Tikka Masala.

It has lots of butter and lots of cream in a tomato sauce. Generally I am not a huge fan of tomato sauces. I will certainly eat some but isn’t a top 5 kind of dish for me. Butter chicken is so heavy in butter and cream however that the tomato sauce is almost like a background flavor like a seasoning rather than the main body of the sauce.

I guess you could make it with anything but traditionally it is made with boneless and skinless chicken thighs.

 Because it typically uses Kashmiri chili for color and a tad bit if flavor, you can tone down the heat to almost nothing. I think regular paprika would probably be the same with no heat. Kashmiri chili in my opinion is about 30% as hot as cayenne.

It is usually served over rice or naan bread.

If you want to see what it looks like, here’s a webpage with several pictures. It is usually a light orange-ish looking gravy/sauce from a significant amount of cream and butter as compared to tomato sauce.

 

This is the hidden content, please

• Sign In
• or
• Sign Up

Well, I love Tikka Masala and curry dishes in general. Butter and cream, in my opinion,  only makes things better! Lol. I do like the spicy curry dishes, so I would probably opt for the Kashmiri if not even a little cayenne. I’m going to have to try making it. 

[tvc184]

15 minutes ago, SmashMouth said:

Well, I love Tikka Masala and curry dishes in general. Butter and cream, in my opinion,  only makes things better! Lol. I do like the spicy curry dishes, so I would probably opt for the Kashmiri if not even a little cayenne. I’m going to have to try making it. 

Tikka Masala and Butter Chicken are about 95% the same flavor. TK has a good bit of onion where BC doesn’t have onions. I usually see more heavy cream in BC and most but not all BC recipes use pureed cashews. TM and BC are almost different versions of the same dish.

I love spicy food including spicy curry. Some curry dishes obviously have a very strong taste (but awesome in my opinion) but some like BC or coconut fish curry are pretty mild. I make the coconut milk and fish curry once in a while. 

[tvc184]

😂😂

We have gone from police officers having to shoot and kill someone to Indian curry. 

[1989NDN]

Not a bad switch...not much information published in the PA News online edition about the preliminary autopsy findings...toxicology results pending...and who doesn't like trying new recipies/good food?

[tvc184]

6 minutes ago, 1989NDN said:

Not a bad switch...not much information published in the PA News online edition about the preliminary autopsy findings...toxicology results pending...and who doesn't like trying new recipies/good food?

I cook Indian, Korean, Chinese, Mexican, Italian (who doesn’t) and even dabble in TexMex, Cajun, etc.

My favorites to cook at aforementioned Indian Butter Chicken and Fish Curry, Chinese Mongolian Beef and Ma Po Tofu, Korean Budae Jjigae and Mandu Jjigae and Mexican Pozole. 

[tvc184]

Things like gumbo, chili, Anasazi (or navy, red, etc.) beans, pulled pork, biscuits and gravy, apple dumplings and so on should just be assumed for SE Texas…..  

[tvc184]

13 minutes ago, 1989NDN said:

Not a bad switch...not much information published in the PA News online edition about the preliminary autopsy findings...toxicology results pending...and who doesn't like trying new recipies/good food?

There probably won’t be much on the autopsy made public except cause of death and maybe eventually toxicology.

My guess having absolutely no information (except officers involved which is now public) but going by distance and incident, I would completely guess that about 10-12 shots fired. Of course it could be 2 or 20.

I am also guessing 2-3 seconds. There will probably be people saying that if more than one sit then it was excessive.