Lumberton 69 West Orange-Stark 60/FINAL

[bullets13]

5 minutes ago, AggiesAreWe said:

I wouldn't say Silsbee was "way down". They did make it to the regional finals that year (lost to Huffman by 4). They were just very very young. Freshmen and Soph.

Way down compared to what they were the years prior and the years since.  How about "very beatable for HJ" for the first and only time over about a decade's span?  They definitely overachieved to make it that far.  It was as impressive a run, and as impressive of a coaching job that Siegler has done over there IMO.

[AggiesAreWe]

17 minutes ago, cb3plus3 said:

BC lost to Silsbee close that year too. Funny how all this started about Mitchell but that same year, he beat BC both times, the next week BC beat HJ.  But I truly am glad BC has the honor of Davis worst playoff loss. It's a badge of honor. We even hung a banner for it. 

Scores that year were 72-61 and 64-46. Tigers were basically nothing but freshmen and soph. that year.

I guess BC peeps would call those scores close.

[BADSANTA]

1 minute ago, AggiesAreWe said:

Scores that year were 72-61 and 64-46. Tigers were basically nothing but freshmen and soph. that year.

I guess BC peeps would call those scores close.

Silsbee had a heck of a chance to beat Huffman. That was actually one of my favorite teams with Baltrip and Gilder 

[cb3plus3]

3 minutes ago, AggiesAreWe said:

Scores that year were 72-61 and 64-46. Tigers were basically nothing but freshmen and soph. that year.

I guess BC peeps would call those scores close.

Yes we would with the first score compared to previous years Mike. If you don't then WTH you smoking? 

[AggiesAreWe]

Just now, cb3plus3 said:

Yes we would with the first score compared to previous years Mike. If you don't then WTH you smoking? 

In comparison yes. But you stated it was a close one and not referencing to past games. Just that it was close.

[whsalum]

2 hours ago, 5GallonBucket said:

Sounds like a Davis buddy

I don’t know who it is but he’s correct. Both of these HJ playoff losses came in the first round after they lost their best player. I’m not very well informed on Lumberton basketball but I worked down there for many years. I know I started seeing the basketball courts fill up with kids since Coach Mitchell got there. That’s a good sign when you are trying to change the culture. 

[bullets13]

6 minutes ago, whsalum said:

I don’t know who it is but he’s correct. Both of these HJ playoff losses came in the first round after they lost their best player. I’m not very well informed on Lumberton basketball but I worked down there for many years. I know I started seeing the basketball courts fill up with kids since Coach Mitchell got there. That’s a good sign when you are trying to change the culture. 

It is.  And I don’t deny that he’s improved that program.  I’ve just taken some exception to some of the stuff that’s happened on this site surrounding him, and involving him and his people, and I do maintain the difference he’s made, while undeniable, has also been exaggerated at times on here.  

[StephenAGURU]

7 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

It is.  And I don’t deny that he’s improved that program.  I’ve just taken some exception to some of the stuff that’s happened on this site surrounding him, and involving him and his people, and I do maintain the difference he’s made, while undeniable, has also been exaggerated at times on here.  

1st time caller long time listener. So I've notice that you seem to have a massive crush on Mitchell. Thats well and good but I would think you would be alittle more focused on underachievers like Clay Davis. Guy has loads of talent and doesnt do much with it from year to year. I would probably move Fogo to boys and Davis to girls if I was the AD. Put those guys on their proper levels to lift up the boys and then Fogo would be able to mentor Davis teach him how to win in the playoffs when it matters. Anyways have a nice day!

[bullets13]

50 minutes ago, StephenAGURU said:

1st time caller long time listener. So I've notice that you seem to have a massive crush on Mitchell. Thats well and good but I would think you would be alittle more focused on underachievers like Clay Davis. Guy has loads of talent and doesnt do much with it from year to year. I would probably move Fogo to boys and Davis to girls if I was the AD. Put those guys on their proper levels to lift up the boys and then Fogo would be able to mentor Davis teach him how to win in the playoffs when it matters. Anyways have a nice day!

Oh look, another random account has sprung up to criticize Davis and defend Mitchell.  That’s about ten of them now.  Glad you could join us (again).  Not sure Davis has ever had a D1 player in his time at HJ.  Fogo has had 3 at once, including a top-10 player in the nation.  Fogo is  an excellent coach, but Davis hasn’t had near the comparative talent that Fogo has, and Fogo hasn’t had to play teams full of D1 talent in the 2nd or 3rd round every year.  Running into Houston teams or Silsbee in the playoffs every year with a good small school type team isn’t really underperforming.  These last two years without their best player going into the playoffs have been the exception, rather than the rule.  One thing I’ll confidently say: Mitchell wouldn’t have done any more at HJ than Davis has, regardless of what he (you) thinks.  Of course, if you can’t consistently make the playoffs, and then can’t consistently win a couple of games when you do get there, you usually don’t have to worry about playing the AAU all-star teams that have basically ended 4A small school basketball for everyone not named Silsbee over the last ten years or so 

[StephenAGURU]

6 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

Oh look, another random account has sprung up to criticize Davis and defend Mitchell.  That’s about ten of them now.  Glad you could join us (again).  Not sure Davis has ever had a D1 player in his time at HJ.  Fogo has had 3 at once, including a top-10 player in the nation.  Fogo is  an excellent coach, but Davis hasn’t had near the comparative talent that Fogo has, and Fogo hasn’t had to play teams full of D1 talent in the 2nd or 3rd round every year.  Running into Houston teams or Silsbee in the playoffs every year with a good small school type team isn’t really underperforming.  These last two years without their best player going into the playoffs have been the exception, rather than the rule.  One thing I’ll confidently say: Mitchell wouldn’t have done any more at HJ than Davis has, regardless of what he (you) thinks.  Of course, if you can’t consistently make the playoffs, and then can’t consistently win a couple of games when you do get there, you usually don’t have to worry about playing the AAU all-star teams that have basically ended 4A small school basketball for everyone not named Silsbee over the last ten years or so 

I mean im not really here to defend Mitchell but I will say he did more with ALOT less. Lumberton has very little talent and I do think they should lean into what Clay Davis does in getting those kids out of BISD. He really does a good job bringing in talent.

Now back to fixing HJ. So say Fogo doesnt want the boys job. You bring in a proven winner and make Davis the assistant. Davis brings in the talent and a guy like Ira Brooks starts winning and teaching Clay how to coach basketball. Davis has had some D1 guys but ran them off. That cat who went to the brook and is now at Colorado. Brooks or Fogo can show him how to use good players and keep them. Also no one who makes alot of excuses like you're doing. We are striving for excellence here!

[5GallonBucket]

6 hours ago, bullets13 said:

indeed.  he coached me.  I have a lot of respect for him.  when the accounts that were "not Mitchell", and then others that we could prove were family members and friends got on here and attacked Davis and greatly overinflated Mitchell regularly in the "who's the best coach in the area" threads, it bothered me.  That's why I'm happy to get on here and throw around pertinent stats and records from time to time.

I never used the word elite, nor have I attacked Davis. I have no issue with Davis. You can go back and look at all my post you will not find me attacking Davis….

my account has been active for quite some time.
you actually started this conversation with your post in the beginning of this thread “deeper issues” so it comes off like you wanted the debate and see who would defend Mitchell…(pretty sure it was intended) .when you say such things about a coach who has created a much improved program….well yeah people will post to defend the guy. 

Basketball school: HJ

not a basketball school (but has improved under Mitchell): Lumberton 

standards are different for each due to school history and expectations.

Lumberton doesn’t get move ins like hj ec and recently Hf. 

so some people think that Mitchell is a better coach than Davis and vice versa.  Oh well.
It’s people opinion.

here s my question: since being at the respective school who has improved their program compared to what it was before givin the talent that’s available …..and/or maintained what it was before givin the talent that’s available?
 

 

[bullets13]

1 hour ago, 5GallonBucket said:

I never used the word elite, nor have I attacked Davis. I have no issue with Davis. You can go back and look at all my post you will not find me attacking Davis….

my account has been active for quite some time.
you actually started this conversation with your post in the beginning of this thread “deeper issues” so it comes off like you wanted the debate and see who would defend Mitchell…(pretty sure it was intended) .when you say such things about a coach who has created a much improved program….well yeah people will post to defend the guy. 

Basketball school: HJ

not a basketball school (but has improved under Mitchell): Lumberton 

standards are different for each due to school history and expectations.

Lumberton doesn’t get move ins like hj ec and recently Hf. 

so some people think that Mitchell is a better coach than Davis and vice versa.  Oh well.
It’s people opinion.

here s my question: since being at the respective school who has improved their program compared to what it was before givin the talent that’s available …..and/or maintained what it was before givin the talent that’s available?
 

 

In response to the first part of this: I have no issue with you on this topic, and don’t feel you’ve disrespected Davis.  There are some that have, but none of that is directed at you.  
 

as to the end of your post: Davis is in a tough spot.  He inherited a great small school program, and it’s still a great small school program.  He routinely wins the same amount of games that were won before he got there, wins district titles, wins tourneys, etc.  the difference now is that Silsbee has exploded into a monster over the last decade, and when you dodge them you get yates or whatever other houston school had a good recruiting year that season.  Sutherland did a phenomenal job at HJ, but he never faced AAU teams in the 2nd or 3rd round of the playoffs, and he had a comparable amount of talent to Silsbee.  So he was in or sniffing at the regional finals pretty much every year.  
Mitchell has certainly improved lumberton.  He had a really solid group of players for a few years, and they had some minor success over the course of three seasons that coincided with dropping down to 4A and having McClure, but that success was a giant leap over anything lumberton had ever accomplished.  Other than that he’s had several dismal seasons in 5A and a couple of meh seasons in 4A. Two years ago certain people were ready to crown him the new elite coach in the area.  Now we’re looking at a second successive mediocre season.  Is it better than when he came?  Absolutely.  But at some point the success has to be sustained.  The last season and a half, post-McClure, appears to be a step backwards.  Can he right the ship?  That will be the test that shows just how good he is or isn’t.  

[TxHoops]

17 hours ago, 5GallonBucket said:

Not to change subjects or go down a rabbit hole…but of those mentioned I would take FOSTER over all of them. Does more with less

all the others have the fortune of athletes

easy to win when you have athletes

Foster is as good a HS coach as I have seen.  Teams are always a joy to watch.  And the guy would give you the shirt off his back. 

[TxHoops]

13 hours ago, StephenAGURU said:

I mean im not really here to defend Mitchell but I will say he did more with ALOT less. Lumberton has very little talent and I do think they should lean into what Clay Davis does in getting those kids out of BISD. He really does a good job bringing in talent.

Now back to fixing HJ. So say Fogo doesnt want the boys job. You bring in a proven winner and make Davis the assistant. Davis brings in the talent and a guy like Ira Brooks starts winning and teaching Clay how to coach basketball. Davis has had some D1 guys but ran them off. That cat who went to the brook and is now at Colorado. Brooks or Fogo can show him how to use good players and keep them. Also no one who makes alot of excuses like you're doing. We are striving for excellence here!

You misspelled UNLV. 

[TxHoops]

13 hours ago, bullets13 said:

Oh look, another random account has sprung up to criticize Davis and defend Mitchell.  That’s about ten of them now.  Glad you could join us (again).  Not sure Davis has ever had a D1 player in his time at HJ.  Fogo has had 3 at once, including a top-10 player in the nation.  Fogo is  an excellent coach, but Davis hasn’t had near the comparative talent that Fogo has, and Fogo hasn’t had to play teams full of D1 talent in the 2nd or 3rd round every year.  Running into Houston teams or Silsbee in the playoffs every year with a good small school type team isn’t really underperforming.  These last two years without their best player going into the playoffs have been the exception, rather than the rule.  One thing I’ll confidently say: Mitchell wouldn’t have done any more at HJ than Davis has, regardless of what he (you) thinks.  Of course, if you can’t consistently make the playoffs, and then can’t consistently win a couple of games when you do get there, you usually don’t have to worry about playing the AAU all-star teams that have basically ended 4A small school basketball for everyone not named Silsbee over the last ten years or so 

I’m not taking anything away from the HJ girls.  They’ve made some great runs and probably should have a ring or two based on talent.  But the games they lost were to other really good teams with really good coaching as well.  But let’s also admit that Fogo before this year may have had the best HS girls assistant coach in the country.  If he’s wasn’t THE best, Omar Sneed had to be on the short list. 

[HasBeen36]

I’d like to comment on this Mitchell stuff and to be completely transparent- Mitchell coached me early in his career. This dude got the most out of my crappy team as possible. You either play hard or don’t play for him. If Mitchell had the cats that roll through HJ, Silsbee, EC, etc then his record would be incredible. The big difference in Mitchell and the others mentioned is Mitchell developed a D1 player. He didn’t go out and find one to bring to his school or coach at a basketball proven school. This dude is winning in lumberton, America and is LOYAL! You know how many times I tried to recruit him to a school I was coaching at so he can help my team win. He will not leave. More importantly than basketball, He helped me grow off of the court more than he did on the court. I still call Mitchell and ask for advice in life. The slander around him is ridiculous. 
For Bullets there is no changing your mind. You continue to have a man crush on Clay over there at HJ and just quit worrying about Mitchell. Dude swims around your dome constantly. I’m willing to bet Mitchell could cure cancer and bullets would be like “I mean he only did ONE good thing!” What about Alzheimer’s?? 

[Knox34]

I heard Mitchell and Davis were going to play 1v1 to settle this.  Winner is an elite coach and loser is an underachieving hack.  I got Mitchell...big!

[bullets13]

5 hours ago, TxHoops said:

I’m not taking anything away from the HJ girls.  They’ve made some great runs and probably should have a ring or two based on talent.  But the games they lost were to other really good teams with really good coaching as well.  But let’s also admit that Fogo before this year may have had the best HS girls assistant coach in the country.  If he’s wasn’t THE best, Omar Sneed had to be on the short list. 

Fogo is a very good coach, but I’d say not winning a state championship over the last 3 years with that team was a bigger deal that Davis not being able to beat the AAU teams in the 2nd or 3rd round most years 

[bullets13]

5 hours ago, HasBeen36 said:

I’d like to comment on this Mitchell stuff and to be completely transparent- Mitchell coached me early in his career. This dude got the most out of my crappy team as possible. You either play hard or don’t play for him. If Mitchell had the cats that roll through HJ, Silsbee, EC, etc then his record would be incredible. The big difference in Mitchell and the others mentioned is Mitchell developed a D1 player. He didn’t go out and find one to bring to his school or coach at a basketball proven school. This dude is winning in lumberton, America and is LOYAL! You know how many times I tried to recruit him to a school I was coaching at so he can help my team win. He will not leave. More importantly than basketball, He helped me grow off of the court more than he did on the court. I still call Mitchell and ask for advice in life. The slander around him is ridiculous. 
For Bullets there is no changing your mind. You continue to have a man crush on Clay over there at HJ and just quit worrying about Mitchell. Dude swims around your dome constantly. I’m willing to bet Mitchell could cure cancer and bullets would be like “I mean he only did ONE good thing!” What about Alzheimer’s?? 

Appreciate the transparency.  Seriously.  He’s done good things over there.  I’m glad he’s helping kids, and glad he’s found some success.  Truly. But nothing will change my mind that it’s BS for a coach to get on here pretending to be someone else and criticize other coaches while tooting his own horn.  And then create more accounts to “back up” his posts.  I’m sure he’s a great guy, though.  He certainly has a few devoted fans on here, although it’s always tough to figure the real ones from the spam accounts.  Id be curious what “slander” has occurred. Having an opinion, or posting records, or questioning how much success determines elite?  The “not mitchell” and mitchell fan club  accounts have certainly said as bad or worse about Davis.  

[bullets13]

5 hours ago, Charles in Charge said:

I heard Mitchell and Davis were going to play 1v1 to settle this.  Winner is an elite coach and loser is an underachieving hack.  I got Mitchell...big!

Would be a fun one in their prime.  

[bullets13]

Anyway, I’m over this particular thread at this time.  Feel free to carry on without me. 

[cb3plus3]

13 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

Appreciate the transparency.  Seriously.  He’s done good things over there.  I’m glad he’s helping kids, and glad he’s found some success.  Truly. But nothing will change my mind that it’s BS for a coach to get on here pretending to be someone else and criticize other coaches while tooting his own horn.  And then create more accounts to “back up” his posts.  I’m sure he’s a great guy, though.  He certainly has a few devoted fans on here, although it’s always tough to figure the real ones from the spam accounts.  Id be curious what “slander” has occurred. Having an opinion, or posting records, or questioning how much success determines elite?  The “not mitchell” and mitchell fan club  accounts have certainly said as bad or worse about Davis.  

You sure throw things around like facts. So I'm a fair guy, if you have proof that he has jumped on here with another account or whatever you say let's see the evidence. Saying this is pretty easy. Bashing a coach and saying things like he isn't a good coach is one thing. But what I see you doing is pretty close to slander without evidence. At some point you've crossed the line of an opinion and have started slandering the guy. 

[bullets13]

1 hour ago, cb3plus3 said:

You sure throw things around like facts. So I'm a fair guy, if you have proof that he has jumped on here with another account or whatever you say let's see the evidence. Saying this is pretty easy. Bashing a coach and saying things like he isn't a good coach is one thing. But what I see you doing is pretty close to slander without evidence. At some point you've crossed the line of an opinion and have started slandering the guy. 

For years we were able to see IP addresses from where people were posting.  Like schools during the work day.  We’re also able to see when the same or very similar email accounts make multiple accounts (like yours).  In the past, other people contacted mods on here (people higher than me with excellent sources) saying it was happening, people that aren’t involved in the conversation, but giving specific names and user names.  And there’s all the circumstantial stuff, like the new account that sprung up yesterday (there’s at least 5 or 6 of those now) and posted until about 15 minutes before tip off, and hasn’t  posted since.  Im confident that if it came to it it wouldn’t be very difficult to prove what I’m saying.  That said, I’m done with it.  I’m glad he’s doing good things for the kids over there, which is the honest truth, and agree lumberton basketball has improved substantially since he arrived, and will leave it at that.  

[cb3plus3]

8 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

For years we were able to see IP addresses from where people were posting.  Like schools during the work day.  We’re also able to see when the same or very similar email accounts make multiple accounts (like yours).  Then there’s other people contacting mods on here (people higher than me with impeccable sources) saying that it’s happening, people that aren’t involved in the conversation.  And there’s all the circumstantial stuff, like the new account that sprung up yesterday (there’s at least 5 or 6 of those now) and posted until about 15 minutes before tip off, and hasn’t  posted since.  Anyway, I’m done with it.  

Are You now saying I have multiple accounts? If so then I know you are full of it man. All I know man is either specifically put up the facts of the evidence or just stop with the bashing and slander.  As a moderator I would think somone would hold you to a higher standard than what you have been doing. 

[bullets13]

17 minutes ago, cb3plus3 said:

Are You now saying I have multiple accounts? If so then I know you are full of it man. All I know man is either specifically put up the facts of the evidence or just stop with the bashing and slander.  As a moderator I would think somone would hold you to a higher standard than what you have been doing. 

Either that or a son with the same name who’s posting on the same thread.  That is a possibility.  I don’t know you personally.  If not, it would be a heck of a coincidence to have two accounts with emails containing the same uncommon name posting in the same thread a few posts apart.  And as I said previously, I’m done with the other.