Lumberton 69 West Orange-Stark 60/FINAL

[AggiesAreWe]

35 minutes ago, cb3plus3 said:

I think it's really important to point out, if you say that about him, we have to point out others. I'm not sure what school affliation you are with but I know he is passionate about opening the gym for kids and trying to help build a program wherever he goes. His w/l record is about .500 for his career from Spurger, Deweyville and Lumberton I believe.  And those are by no means basketball first programs so I'm not sure how you argue with the stats. HS basketball is tough in SETX I'm just saying only a handful of coaches that have better than .500 record for over a decade. I remember when schools like HF, Nederland, OF, and others couldn't get quality pre season games before their current program coaches. It's not easy to load a schedule like Silsbee or BU. Barbers Hill came and played at LCM tourney and had no business there. #14 5A team playing tarkington, BC, Anuhac, LCM, etc. All lower class schools. East Chambers goes to tournaments they shouldn't play at either. Evadale isn't a special tourney for EC to win. Same time as Nederland so why don't they do that tourney? Those are padded wins too. So I think it's really hard to judge any program how they get to their own records the only one that matters is the end of season record. 

Spurger is a basketball first school. They do not play football.

If you are going to call out EC for playing in the Evadale tourney, then why not call out your own 4A BC team along with 4A Jasper? 4A playing in a 2A hosted tourney. Looking at what teams played in the Nederland tourney, BC and Jasper should have been in that tourney as well. The only school smaller than EC in the Evadale tourney was Evadale.

Every coach has his own philosophy as to what kind of schedule is good for his team.

[cb3plus3]

1 minute ago, AggiesAreWe said:

Spurger is a basketball first school. They do not play football.

If you are going to call out EC for playing in the Evadale tourney, then why not call out your own 4A BC team along with 4A Jasper? 4A playing in a 2A hosted tourney. Looking at what teams played in the Nederland tourney, BC and Jasper should have been in that tourney as well. The only school smaller than EC in the Evadale tourney was Evadale.

Every coach has his own philosophy as to what kind of schedule is good for his team.

 

[cb3plus3]

Just now, cb3plus3 said:

 

If you feel that EC program should play there then so be it. I guess the district will determine that.  I agree with you though, BC should not be at that tourney either.  

[AggiesAreWe]

1 minute ago, cb3plus3 said:

If you feel that EC program should play there then so be it. I guess the district will determine that.  I agree with you though, BC should not be at that tourney either.  

EC usually is just getting their team that week after football has ended. Coach Sutherland does not schedule any games until football season is over. 85% of his team comes off the football field. So he tries to just ease his team into the basketball season. He hosts his own tourney later in the year which normally has good teams and this year he went to a tourney in Louisiana that had some good teams. I don't think EC's schedule is weak.

Some coaches who are just getting their team after football don't want to throw them to the dogs right off the bat. Only coach I know of locally that does that is Coach Sigler. But he knows his team and what they can handle better than anyone.

[bullets13]

1 hour ago, cb3plus3 said:

I think it's really important to point out, if you say that about him, we have to point out others. I'm not sure what school affliation you are with but I know he is passionate about opening the gym for kids and trying to help build a program wherever he goes. His w/l record is about .500 for his career from Spurger, Deweyville and Lumberton I believe.  And those are by no means basketball first programs so I'm not sure how you argue with the stats. HS basketball is tough in SETX I'm just saying only a handful of coaches that have better than .500 record for over a decade. I remember when schools like HF, Nederland, OF, and others couldn't get quality pre season games before their current program coaches. It's not easy to load a schedule like Silsbee or BU. Barbers Hill came and played at LCM tourney and had no business there. #14 5A team playing tarkington, BC, Anuhac, LCM, etc. All lower class schools. East Chambers goes to tournaments they shouldn't play at either. Evadale isn't a special tourney for EC to win. Same time as Nederland so why don't they do that tourney? Those are padded wins too. So I think it's really hard to judge any program how they get to their own records the only one that matters is the end of season record. 

I'm not arguing with these stats: in 9+ years at lumberton he has 117 wins, and SIXTY-FOUR of them have come against lower division teams, and these aren't state-level lower teams.  Their district record in those 9 years is 40-71. 

When you're talking about padding wins, you can look at the stat I listed above.  over half of their wins over ten years are against lower competition, and not good teams, either.  They have nearly 40 losses to lower level teams during that time as well.  Out of 250ish games, over 95 have come against lower classifications, and 110 have been district games. Not too many games on the schedule each year against teams from the same or higher classifications. There's a far cry from playing a single lower level tournament once in awhile as nederland has done and doing at least 2 a year every single year, plus 4-5 other non-tournament games a season vs lower classifications thrown in.  While there was a time (especially when they were 5A) that Lumberton needed to do this to gain wins, if they're in year ten with an elite coach, have dropped down to 4A, and recently made the playoffs 3 years in a row, it seems like they should be beating better programs and scheduling a tougher schedule? 

[cb3plus3]

5 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

I'm not arguing with these stats: in 9+ years at lumberton he has 117 wins, and SIXTY-FOUR of them have come against lower division teams.  Their district record in those 9 years is 40-71. 

Win you're talking about padding wins, you can look at the stat I listed above.  over half of their wins over ten years are against lower competition, and not good teams, either.  They have nearly 40 losses to lower level teams during that time as well.  Out of 250ish games, around 100 have come against lower classifications.  There's a far cry from playing a single lower level tournament once in awhile and doing at least 2 a year every single year, plus 4-5 other non-tournament games a season vs lower classifications thrown in.  

Mitchell's career stats  I just asked him to provide me some real numbers to be fair because I'm not sure where everyone getting their information.

189- 192 career (spurger deweyville Lumberton) 

159-166 Lumberton. 4 of these years Lumberton played in 5A against Ozen, Nederland, Memorial, etc. Tough to win against them. 

 

[bullets13]

27 minutes ago, cb3plus3 said:

Mitchell's career stats  I just asked him to provide me some real numbers to be fair because I'm not sure where everyone getting their information.

189- 192 career (spurger deweyville Lumberton) 

159-166 Lumberton. 4 of these years Lumberton played in 5A against Ozen, Nederland, Memorial, etc. Tough to win against them. 

 

Look, i'm not saying he's a bad coach, and I've repeated that over and over.  But he's not elite, and there's literally nothing to indicate he is.  If people would come on here and say that he's done a good job making lumberton semi-relevant, had a couple of solid seasons, one good season, and a couple of big wins, I would never have anything to say.  But there's been a string of fake accounts, family, family friends, and buddies (this is apparently your group) of his that get on here and mention him in the same breath as Sigler, Green, Foster, Boutte, Sutherland, etc. and it's laughable at this point.  Those accounts have at the same time denigrated other respected coaches in the area in an effort to make him look better.  This is why I will always come on here and argue, post stats, W/L records, etc when people try to claim he's elite, and will come on and ask questions when things aren't going well and those fake accounts and buddies are silent.  Those folks always have an excuse for the poor seasons, and lay all credit for the one truly good season and decent 3-year run out of ten seasons at his feet.  It doesn't jive.    

[cb3plus3]

15 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

Look, i'm not saying he's a bad coach, and I've repeated that over and over.  But he's not elite, and there's literally nothing to indicate he is.  If people would come on here and say that he's done a good job making lumberton semi-relevant, had a couple of solid seasons, one good season, and a couple of big wins, I would never have anything to say.  But there's been a string of fake accounts, family, family friends, and buddies (this is apparently your group) of his that get on here and mention him in the same breath as Sigler, Green, Foster, Boutte, Sutherland, etc. and it's laughable at this point.  Those accounts have at the same time denigrated other respected coaches in the area in an effort to make him look better.  This is why I will always come on here and argue, post stats, W/L records, etc when people try to claim he's elite, and will come on and ask questions when things aren't going well and those fake accounts and buddies are silent.  Those folks always have an excuse for the poor seasons, and lay all credit for the one truly good season and decent 3-year run out of ten seasons at his feet.  It doesn't jive.    

Well you clearly don't know me. Just because I don't agree with you, don't think I'm in anyone's group. I'm not drinking anyone's kool-aid unlike some I see on here especially the ones you mention. Not one single time did I mention anything about Mitchell being elite. Not one time did I mention those others were either too. What I said was that it takes talent to win and those programs have talent and have recruited talent and Mitchell has done well with the talent he has at Lumberton. You don't get to stay at a program for 10 years in a healthy closed school district without being relevant. I'm still unsure what team you are affiliated but It's irrelevant. Im just curious if you could stand behind your home team/program for the past 10 years and see how it matches up to his record. I'm not going to say anything because our program could not. BC has only beaten 1 program in playoffs in 60 years and it was one of these "elite" coaches. BC has nothing to talk about being relevant but we certainly don't disgrace others that are doing better than we have the last decade. 

[bullets13]

30 minutes ago, cb3plus3 said:

Well you clearly don't know me. Just because I don't agree with you, don't think I'm in anyone's group. I'm not drinking anyone's kool-aid unlike some I see on here especially the ones you mention. Not one single time did I mention anything about Mitchell being elite. Not one time did I mention those others were either too. What I said was that it takes talent to win and those programs have talent and have recruited talent and Mitchell has done well with the talent he has at Lumberton. You don't get to stay at a program for 10 years in a healthy closed school district without being relevant. I'm still unsure what team you are affiliated but It's irrelevant. Im just curious if you could stand behind your home team/program for the past 10 years and see how it matches up to his record. I'm not going to say anything because our program could not. BC has only beaten 1 program in playoffs in 60 years and it was one of these "elite" coaches. BC has nothing to talk about being relevant but we certainly don't disgrace others that are doing better than we have the last decade. 

One of the programs I'm affiliated with (HJ) has absolutely wiped Lumberton over the past ten years, and Davis is one of the coaches that the accounts associated with Mitchell on here have consistently attacked.  Lumberton is close to 0-10 against HJ during that span, unless there's a result that isn't online for me to find.  The other school is HF, which is one of those bad lower level teams that he used to schedule 8-9 years ago for an easy win when they were 5A, but is now clearly a much better squad that Lumberton, has been for the last couple of years, and should be for the foreseeable future.  My group comment came because you've come on defending him, and made some claims about his coaching that seemed a bit over the top to me, but mostly because  you're able to just contact him right up and get his record from him.  So it seems you're buddies with him to some degree.  But I can respect the fact that you respect his coaching style and ability.  I was just wary because there's a long history of inactive accounts on this site becoming active after years of inactivity and only posting in threads about either how good of a coach Mitchell is or defending him when anyone says anything negative about him, while claiming they don't have any affiliation to him.  During these times new accounts are also created that do the same thing.  Multiple coaches have come to us with beliefs or circumstantial proof that some of these accounts and posts are Mitchell himself.  Others have come back to family members.  It's been kind of a mess, but it makes for an active basketball board anytime the topic arises.

[cb3plus3]

7 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

One of the programs I'm affiliated with (HJ) absolutely wipes Lumberton over the past ten years, and Davis is one of the coaches that the accounts associated with Mitchell on here have consistently attacked.  The other is HF, which is one of those bad lower level teams that he used to schedule 8-9 years ago for an easy win when they were 5A, but is now clearly a much better squad that Lumberton, has been for the last couple of years, and should be for the foreseeable future.

Well as you know, BC and WOS have beaten HJ in the playoffs the last 2 seasons when clearly they were underdogs. I believe sometimes in neutral places where all is equal (including referees), HJ isn't the team it once was. No doubt its a historic program. This year they have a great squad. That Kelly recruit that transferred over this year is a flat out player. I have a soft spot for Melvo too as he is a sincerely good player and kid. The young Spears is also a good kid too.

 If recruting or moving kids into your district equals a program, then coaching has nothing to do with Xs and Os. Now, I do think the HF coach is a good coach but clearly the way all that happend is very important to their success. Time will tell if he can repeat this YOY.  

[5GallonBucket]

52 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

Look, i'm not saying he's a bad coach, and I've repeated that over and over.  But he's not elite, and there's literally nothing to indicate he is.  If people would come on here and say that he's done a good job making lumberton semi-relevant, had a couple of solid seasons, one good season, and a couple of big wins, I would never have anything to say.  But there's been a string of fake accounts, family, family friends, and buddies (this is apparently your group) of his that get on here and mention him in the same breath as Sigler, Green, Foster, Boutte, Sutherland, etc. and it's laughable at this point.  Those accounts have at the same time denigrated other respected coaches in the area in an effort to make him look better.  This is why I will always come on here and argue, post stats, W/L records, etc when people try to claim he's elite, and will come on and ask questions when things aren't going well and those fake accounts and buddies are silent.  Those folks always have an excuse for the poor seasons, and lay all credit for the one truly good season and decent 3-year run out of ten seasons at his feet.  It doesn't jive.    

Not to change subjects or go down a rabbit hole…but of those mentioned I would take FOSTER over all of them. Does more with less

all the others have the fortune of athletes

easy to win when you have athletes

[cb3plus3]

3 minutes ago, 5GallonBucket said:

Not to change subjects or go down a rabbit hole…but of those mentioned I would take FOSTER over all of them. Does more with less

all the others have the fortune of athletes

easy to win when you have athletes

Foster is by far the best. I agree. Good guy too. No arrogance either. Very humble. 

[5GallonBucket]

How consistent has hj been going 3 rounds deep since Davis has been there.

Do you think Mitchell would lose in the 1st round the last 2 years with those same hj kids

24 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

One of the programs I'm affiliated with (HJ) absolutely wipes Lumberton over the past ten years, and Davis is one of the coaches that the accounts associated with Mitchell on here have consistently attacked.  Lumberton is close to 0-10 against HJ during that span, unless there's a result that isn't online for me to find.  The other school is HF, which is one of those bad lower level teams that he used to schedule 8-9 years ago for an easy win when they were 5A, but is now clearly a much better squad that Lumberton, has been for the last couple of years, and should be for the foreseeable future.  The group comment came because you've come on defending him, and made some claims about his coaching that seemed a bit over the top to me, but mostly because  you're able to just contact him right up and get his record from him.  So obviously you're buddies with him to some degree.

 

[bullets13]

1 minute ago, cb3plus3 said:

Well as you know, BC and WOS have beaten HJ in the playoffs the last 2 seasons when clearly they were underdogs. I believe sometimes in neutral places where all is equal (including referees), HJ isn't the team it once was. No doubt its a historic program. This year they have a great squad. That Kelly recruit that transferred over this year is a flat out player. I have a soft spot for Melvo too as he is a sincerely good player and kid. The young Spears is also a good kid too.

 If recruting or moving kids into your district equals a program, then coaching has nothing to do with Xs and Os. Now, I do think the HF coach is a good coach but clearly the way all that happend is very important to their success. Time will tell if he can repeat this YOY.  

HJ was without it's best player in both of those games.  They had absolutely no business losing to BC, but played poorly and BC took advantage and made a fantastic comeback.  The WOS game was a matchup nightmare, and once they lost Sears I figured they'd lose it.  HJ may not be what they once were, but that has everything to do with all of the Houston and Dallas teams somehow being 4A, and Silsbee having an otherworldly 10 years or so worth of players.  HJ still wins 25+ games every year, and would still be making runs in the playoffs if 4A hadn't turned into a big city/small enrollment recruitment division.  

[bullets13]

4 minutes ago, 5GallonBucket said:

Not to change subjects or go down a rabbit hole…but of those mentioned I would take FOSTER over all of them. Does more with less

all the others have the fortune of athletes

easy to win when you have athletes

No rabbit hole here, I 1000% agree with you on this statement.  

[5GallonBucket]

4 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

HJ was without it's best player in both of those games.  They had absolutely no business losing to BC, but played poorly and BC took advantage and made a fantastic comeback.  The WOS game was a matchup nightmare, and once they lost Sears I figured they'd lose it.  HJ may not be what they once were, but that has everything to do with all of the Houston and Dallas teams somehow being 4A, and Silsbee having an otherworldly 10 years or so worth of players.  HJ still wins 25+ games every year, and would still be making runs in the playoffs if 4A hadn't turned into a big city/small enrollment recruitment division.  

Sounds like a Davis buddy

[cb3plus3]

1 minute ago, bullets13 said:

HJ was without it's best player in both of those games.  They had absolutely no business losing to BC, but played poorly and BC took advantage and made a fantastic comeback.  The WOS game was a matchup nightmare, and once they lost Sears I figured they'd lose it.  HJ may not be what they once were, but that has everything to do with all of the Houston and Dallas teams somehow being 4A, and Silsbee having an otherworldly 10 years or so worth of players.  HJ still wins 25+ games every year, and would still be making runs in the playoffs if 4A hadn't turned into a big city/small enrollment recruitment division.  

Programs include more than just 1 player right? I mean surely RJ wasn't the only reason they were in the playoffs? I believe it's easy to say what should've , could've , would've but what happened is what happened. If a good program manager, you manage all aspects of your program. Classroom, community, etc. I was at both the HJ playoff games the last 2 years when they lost 1st round. It was not the kids it was something else. Maybe it was just better preparing by the others or something like that. Just didn't look like traditional HJ teams. 

[bullets13]

5 minutes ago, 5GallonBucket said:

How consistent has hj been going 3 rounds deep since Davis has been there.

Do you think Mitchell would lose in the 1st round the last 2 years with those same hj kids

 

Without Sears both times, probably.  The WOS game for sure, but maybe he wins the BC game.  The Bridge City loss is the worst of Davis' career IMO.  But that WOS team was no joke.  They had a 3-point loss to silsbee, and a 4-point loss to Yates last season.  

[5GallonBucket]

2 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

Without Sears both times, probably.  The WOS game for sure, but maybe he wins the BC game.  The Bridge City loss is the worst of Davis' career IMO.  But that WOS team was no joke.  They had a 3-point loss to silsbee, and a 4-point loss to Yates last season.  

Lumberton beat that same bc team and lost to wos by a buzzer beater.

hj was ranked 10 if I’m not mistaken

[cb3plus3]

2 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

Without Sears both times, probably.  The WOS game for sure, but maybe he wins the BC game.  The Bridge City loss is the worst of Davis' career IMO.  But that WOS team was no joke.  They had a 3-point loss to silsbee, and a 4-point loss to Yates last season.  

BC lost to Silsbee close that year too. Funny how all this started about Mitchell but that same year, he beat BC both times, the next week BC beat HJ.  But I truly am glad BC has the honor of Davis worst playoff loss. It's a badge of honor. We even hung a banner for it. 

[bullets13]

5 minutes ago, 5GallonBucket said:

Sounds like a Davis buddy

indeed.  he coached me.  I have a lot of respect for him.  when the accounts that were "not Mitchell", and then others that we could prove were family members and friends got on here and attacked Davis and greatly overinflated Mitchell regularly in the "who's the best coach in the area" threads, it bothered me.  That's why I'm happy to get on here and throw around pertinent stats and records from time to time.

[bullets13]

7 minutes ago, 5GallonBucket said:

Lumberton beat that same bc team and lost to wos by a buzzer beater.

hj was ranked 10 if I’m not mistaken

Lumberton lost to WOS three times, one was close.  HJ lost their best player at the end of the season, and it showed.  Kinda like the way that Lumberton lost McClure and went from district champs to completely missing the playoffs the next year, and possibly again this year.

[bullets13]

18 minutes ago, cb3plus3 said:

BC lost to Silsbee close that year too. Funny how all this started about Mitchell but that same year, he beat BC both times, the next week BC beat HJ.  But I truly am glad BC has the honor of Davis worst playoff loss. It's a badge of honor. We even hung a banner for it. 

It wasn't just the fact that BC beat them.  It was multiple factors.  One was blowing the big lead, another was that was the HJ team that had the best shot over the past several years to make it to state.  Huffman ended up going that year, and HJ had beaten them by a lot once and lost by a point another time.  Silsbee was way down, Yates was way down, and HJ had their best team in awhile.  BC had a great win against them, and should've been proud.  But HJ played like doodoo and their best player was (deservedly) suspended.  I would be willing to bet that Davis would say it was his worst playoff loss as well.  

[cb3plus3]

1 minute ago, bullets13 said:

It wasn't just the fact that BC beat them.  It was multiple factors.  One was blowing the big lead, another was that was the HJ team that had the best shot over the past several years to make it to state.  Huffman ended up going that year, and HJ had beaten them once and lost by a point or two two other times.  Silsbee was way down, Yates was way down, and HJ had their best team in awhile.  BC had a great win against them, and should've been proud.  But HJ played like doodoo and their best player was (deservedly) suspended.  I would be willing to bet that Davis would say it was his worst playoff loss as well.  

Makes it even sweeter. Thanks for your insight. 

[AggiesAreWe]

3 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

It wasn't just the fact that BC beat them.  It was multiple factors.  One was blowing the big lead, another was that was the HJ team that had the best shot over the past several years to make it to state.  Huffman ended up going that year, and HJ had beaten them once and lost by a point or two two other times.  Silsbee was way down, Yates was way down, and HJ had their best team in awhile.  BC had a great win against them, and should've been proud.  But HJ played like doodoo and their best player was (deservedly) suspended.  I would be willing to bet that Davis would say it was his worst playoff loss as well.  

I wouldn't say Silsbee was "way down". They did make it to the regional finals that year (lost to Huffman by 4). They were just very very young. Freshmen and Soph.