What makes a good vs. great coach?

[Bobcat1]

? 

[Reagan]

1 minute ago, Bobcat1 said:

? 

This ought to get interesting!  😁

[pine curtain]

a good coach knows X&O'S

a great coach knows his PLAYERS and cant motivate them.

[MackLewis]

Don’t know any great coaches who didn’t have a good staff and good cast of coaches around them.

They better be able to not only coach kids up, and get them to play above their talent level, but they better be a good judge of coaching talent!

[purpleeagle]

Hummmm, winning a state championship in 7 years. 🇲🇷😋🕰

[Rez]

I agree with Reagan’s 7-year principle, but I would modify it. Actually winning a state championship is often out of the hands of even the greatest coaches. Under Reagan’s approach, taken to the extreme, if a coach made it to state 7 years in a row but lost all of them, that coach should be fired. No one in the state would want that coach fired. So apply the 7 year rule more broadly : If a coach doesn’t get you to at least the 4th round within 7 years, you can reasonably assume his ceiling doesn’t go that high. In other words, you can know in 7 years if a coach has the ability to get that team in the range of a state championship. If you can get in that range, anything can happen, but it’s not always in the coach’s control. 

[purpleeagle]

11 hours ago, Rez Ipsa said:

I agree with Reagan’s 7-year principle, but I would modify it. Actually winning a state championship is often out of the hands of even the greatest coaches. Under Reagan’s approach, taken to the extreme, if a coach made it to state 7 years in a row but lost all of them, that coach should be fired. No one in the state would want that coach fired. So apply the 7 year rule more broadly : If a coach doesn’t get you to at least the 4th round within 7 years, you can reasonably assume his ceiling doesn’t go that high. In other words, you can know in 7 years if a coach has the ability to get that team in the range of a state championship. If you can get in that range, anything can happen, but it’s not always in the coach’s control. 

So you think Gilmer should fire their coach because Carthage is standing in their way. Do not agree with that. The only thing that would help Gilmer is to have Carthage’s coach. That is not going to happen. 

[SmashMouth]

5 hours ago, purpleeagle said:

So you think Gilmer should fire their coach because Carthage is standing in their way. Do not agree with that. The only thing that would help Gilmer is to have Carthage’s coach. That is not going to happen. 

Don’t confuse the conversation with logic. People won’t know how to react. Lol. 

[WOSdrummer99]

6 hours ago, purpleeagle said:

So you think Gilmer should fire their coach because Carthage is standing in their way. Do not agree with that. The only thing that would help Gilmer is to have Carthage’s coach. That is not going to happen. 

It only took Traylor 5 seasons to win his first championship in 2004. Then again in 2009 and 2014. So replacing the elite coach wasn't easy. They promoted the OC to the position. Turner went 53-17 over 5 years with 2 trips to the semis, but no championship. Now that Menzel has taken control he has kept them right where they need to be. No need to fire someone who can't get passed Surratt and Carthage. Not many, if any, could. 

I've been doing some research on @Reagan 7 year theory. It has some merit. The average time needed to win a championship is 8.7 seasons. With most coming less than 7 seasons at a new school. 

While cruching the numbers and making a list of those deemed Elite. I noticed that every time WOS lost in the final, it was to another Elite coach. 

Paris in 88, coach Wilson won his first in his 6th season and won another with Tyler in 84

Ennis in 2000, coach Harrell won his first  in his 7th season. Then again in 2001 and 2004.

Gilmer in 14, coach Traylor won his first in 2004 after 5 season. Then again in 2009 and 2014.

Pleasant Grove in 17, coach Gibson won in his 4th season and again in 2019.

[bullets13]

53 minutes ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

It only took Traylor 5 seasons to win his first championship in 2004. Then again in 2009 and 2014. So replacing the elite coach wasn't easy. They promoted the OC to the position. Turner went 53-17 over 5 years with 2 trips to the semis, but no championship. Now that Menzel has taken control he has kept them right where they need to be. No need to fire someone who can't get passed Surratt and Carthage. Not many, if any, could. 

I've been doing some research on @Reagan 7 year theory. It has some merit. The average time needed to win a championship is 8.7 seasons. With most coming less than 7 seasons at a new school. 

While cruching the numbers and making a list of those deemed Elite. I noticed that every time WOS lost in the final, it was to another Elite coach. 

Paris in 88, coach Wilson won his first in his 6th season and won another with Tyler in 84

Ennis in 2000, coach Harrell won his first  in his 7th season. Then again in 2001 and 2004.

Gilmer in 14, coach Traylor won his first in 2004 after 5 season. Then again in 2009 and 2014.

Pleasant Grove in 17, coach Gibson won in his 4th season and again in 2019.

I’ll argue to a degree: I don’t think the 7 year argument has no merit, but I think it can only apply to certain schools.  For schools like Newton, WOS, Allen, Carthage, and the many other that have an endless supply of talent and a community that is bought in, then yes, a coach should succeed, or at least come dang close quickly and somewhat regularly.  There are other schools that for various reasons will never reach that level of consistent success.  IMO, Matthews was a great coach for vidor.  The level of success he brought them was a tremendous jump from his predecessors, but he never had the players to sniff a state championship.  And unless Surratt brought kids from Carthage with him, he’s not winning championships either.  Would he do better than Matthews?  Yeah, I’m sure he would.  but he’s not winning a state championship there unless some magical group of players comes through, or the best players from other nearby schools start coming to play for him like happens in east Texas.  He took over a Carthage program that was already pretty good, with a lot of talent, and put them over the top.  But he’s not going to take over a school without a lot of athletes and suddenly have the D1 players that you need to compete.  

[bullets13]

So with my previous post taken in my mind, I’ll say a good coach treats the kids well and consistently accomplishes what should be accomplished based on the level of talent he has, and other factors (such as being in the same region as Carthage).  A great coach is able to accomplish more than what should be expected with the level of players he has year in and year out.  That doesn’t have to be trips to state.  If his community doesn’t produce a lot of size and athletes, and have a history of going 1-9 and 2-8 every year, but he’s able to squeak into the playoffs most years, and even win a playoff game or two some years, that could be a great coach.  It’s really situational.  A good coach could probably win a state championship at Carthage with the talent they have now and the program that surratt has built.  But there are plenty of programs where a great coach could spend his entire career at and never make it to the regional finals.  

[purpleeagle]

1 hour ago, bullets13 said:

I’ll argue to a degree: I don’t think the 7 year argument has no merit, but I think it can only apply to certain schools.  For schools like Newton, WOS, Allen, Carthage, and the many other that have an endless supply of talent and a community that is bought in, then yes, a coach should succeed, or at least come dang close quickly and somewhat regularly.  There are other schools that for various reasons will never reach that level of consistent success.  IMO, Matthews was a great coach for vidor.  The level of success he brought them was a tremendous jump from his predecessors, but he never had the players to sniff a state championship.  And unless Surratt brought kids from Carthage with him, he’s not winning championships either.  Would he do better than Matthews?  Yeah, I’m sure he would.  but he’s not winning a state championship there unless some magical group of players comes through, or the best players from other nearby schools start coming to play for him like happens in east Texas.  He took over a Carthage program that was already pretty good, with a lot of talent, and put them over the top.  But he’s not going to take over a school without a lot of athletes and suddenly have the D1 players that you need to compete.  

Newton, Carthage WO-S and teams like that do not have a endless supply of talent, they developed that talent. 

[Reagan]

1 hour ago, purpleeagle said:

Newton, Carthage WO-S and teams like that do not have a endless supply of talent, they developed that talent. 

100% This  ^^^^^^

[AggiesAreWe]

Looking at the Padilla Poll All State 4A teams, Carthage has 15 players on the 1st and 2nd team offense and defense. 15 out of 44 players.

If that is a true indication, then Surratt's X's and O's are not what has Carthage winning.

[bullets13]

6 hours ago, purpleeagle said:

Newton, Carthage WO-S and teams like that do not have an endless supply of talent, they developed that talent. 

They must have an endless supply of athletes, then.  Because you can’t create them, but you can certainly develop them.  

[oldschool2]

On 2/4/2023 at 7:16 PM, Rez Ipsa said:

I agree with Reagan’s 7-year principle, but I would modify it. Actually winning a state championship is often out of the hands of even the greatest coaches. Under Reagan’s approach, taken to the extreme, if a coach made it to state 7 years in a row but lost all of them, that coach should be fired. No one in the state would want that coach fired. So apply the 7 year rule more broadly : If a coach doesn’t get you to at least the 4th round within 7 years, you can reasonably assume his ceiling doesn’t go that high. In other words, you can know in 7 years if a coach has the ability to get that team in the range of a state championship. If you can get in that range, anything can happen, but it’s not always in the coach’s control. 

How many schools in the state have never been past round 3?  What if a school has never in its history won 2 playoff games in the same year and hardly ever even makes the playoffs?  What if it's a school like Sabine Pass.. or Warren?  You know.. habitual punching bags.  Then a coach starts making the playoffs consistently and maybe wins a playoff game every once in a while.  

Still need to be fired for not getting to at least 4th round in 7 years?

[purpleeagle]

11 hours ago, bullets13 said:

They must have an endless supply of athletes, then.  Because you can’t create them, but you can certainly develop them.  

True, and it starts with pee wee football in Newton.

[JaspD55]

18 hours ago, Reagan said:

100% This  ^^^^^^

God creates Genetics not coaches. But, I will say it could be like a Lousy cook burning a juicy Rib Eye, and an elite cook, making it great? lol

[JaspD55]

Just now, JaspD55 said:

God creates Genetics not coaches. But, I will say it could be like a Lousy cook burning a juicy Rib Eye, and an elite cook, making it great? lol

But if you were trying to cook a rotten Goat, wouldnt matter who the cook was, if you can understand the comparison?

[oldschool2]

1 hour ago, JaspD55 said:

But if you were trying to cook a rotten Goat, wouldnt matter who the cook was, if you can understand the comparison?

You can't make a donkey win a race horse... no matter how good the trainer is.

[WOSdrummer99]

3 hours ago, JaspD55 said:

But, I will say it could be like a Lousy cook burning a juicy Rib Eye, and an elite cook, making it great? lol

This scenario happened recently to an above mentioned program. 🤐

[Dirty_but_Dazzling]

21 hours ago, AggiesAreWe said:

Looking at the Padilla Poll All State 4A teams, Carthage has 15 players on the 1st and 2nd team offense and defense. 15 out of 44 players.

If that is a true indication, then Surratt's X's and O's are not what has Carthage winning.

but very well  is. the players being part of his "program" and being well coached & " developed" along with his x and o's.

[Reagan]

It's still amazing how easily it is for some to still blame the kids for the coach's failures!  Sad!

[Reagan]

On 2/5/2023 at 5:12 PM, AggiesAreWe said:

Looking at the Padilla Poll All State 4A teams, Carthage has 15 players on the 1st and 2nd team offense and defense. 15 out of 44 players.

If that is a true indication, then Surratt's X's and O's are not what has Carthage winning.

Does this hold true for all of his State Championships?  How many State Titles were won before Surratt got there?  What, in the history of Carthage football they NEVER had any of these potential types of athletes?  So, what, they just started showing up when Surratt did?!  
I personally know one of Carthage's ex HC's and trust me, he's NOT a Championship coach!  

[Dirty_but_Dazzling]

4 hours ago, Reagan said:

Does this hold true for all of his State Championships?  How many State Titles were won before Surratt got there?  What, in the history of Carthage football they NEVER had any of these potential types of athletes?  So, what, they just started showing up when Surratt did?!  
I personally know one of Carthage's ex HC's and trust me, he's NOT a Championship coach!  

to that point,  Sleepy Reynolds was  HC the 26 years prior to the "Lord of the Rings" arrival. During that time(26 years)  Carthage had three 10+ wins seasons.