What makes a good vs. great coach?

[Hagar]

One aspect that gets little attention, but explains somewhat the success of first year Coaches is tradition.  A school with a winning tradition (imo) has a definite edge over one without.  PNG & Nederland are two examples, although Ned has fallen off recently.  But when PNG takes the field, with the stands full of purple and the band blaring out Cherokee, they have that edge.  And if for instance they’re playing Vidor, and it’s one of those rare times Vidor should win, they more often than not will lose because of that tradition.  Call it “never give up”, or whatever, but a great tradition goes a long way.  Jmo

[Horton]

7 hours ago, oldschool2 said:

Who's blaming kids?  It's not the kids' fault when they just smaller, weaker, or slower than state championship caliber athletes.  Now.. a coach can help/motivate them to get bigger, stronger, and faster.  Possibly more so than any other coach.  And some coaches will give those kids a better chance to win than many other coaches.  But sometimes it's not enough.  That's not kid blaming.  That's reality.  There's not a 5'6, 145 kid in the world that realistically blames their old coach that they didn't get into the NFL.

But you.. you're saying that an "elite coach" can win a title with a team full of average to below average kids.

You're the dodo bird in this argument.  

Surratt had the talent of hiring coaches. 
His staff starting from the junior high to high school started teaching kids how to play disciplined football, how to lift weights, film study, pride of the C an how to play a very physical type of football. He said his self, Carthage had good athletes but were not physical. 
By the time you get to the junior varsity, you are playing hard nose physical football. Every little kid in Carthage wants to be a Carthage Dawg. 
No matter if they have to wait until they are seniors for a starting position. 
If you look back at every state championship team, see how many played FBS football (major DI college ball) you won’t find but a small number. 
You will find a whole bunch they landed at smaller colleges. The point is the coaching staff developed those kids and made them the best they could be. 
Carthage has had some of the best high school quarterbacks in Texas but only two played DI football Boggie went to USAT and one is at Tulane now. It is all about the program at Carthage. 
Surratt, Preston, and all the other coaches beat with one heart beat and by the time the players get to the varsity, they have the same heart beat. 

[oldschool2]

16 hours ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

222 out of 323

69%

So 31% of Texas high school football coaches are elite coaches?  That seems high...

[JaspD55]

9 hours ago, Horton said:

Surratt had the talent of hiring coaches. 
His staff starting from the junior high to high school started teaching kids how to play disciplined football, how to lift weights, film study, pride of the C an how to play a very physical type of football. He said his self, Carthage had good athletes but were not physical. 
By the time you get to the junior varsity, you are playing hard nose physical football. Every little kid in Carthage wants to be a Carthage Dawg. 
No matter if they have to wait until they are seniors for a starting position. 
If you look back at every state championship team, see how many played FBS football (major DI college ball) you won’t find but a small number. 
You will find a whole bunch they landed at smaller colleges. The point is the coaching staff developed those kids and made them the best they could be. 
Carthage has had some of the best high school quarterbacks in Texas but only two played DI football Boggie went to USAT and one is at Tulane now. It is all about the program at Carthage. 
Surratt, Preston, and all the other coaches beat with one heart beat and by the time the players get to the varsity, they have the same heart beat. 

That all sounds great, but I can guarantee that most coaches would love to do the same thing. For example what happens when your Elite Coach hires on, and the Admin does not allocate the money needed to hire good or enough assistant coaches? or your Principles and Supt. dont do a good job of coordinating the teaching slots to fit your need for coaches? Or there is no extra money to upgrade your facilities ? Or when you are not allowed to adjust the period scheduling to fit the needs of your off season program? These are things that Coaches bang their heads against the wall all the time , that affect your football program, and I'm just scratching the surface. 

[oldschool2]

9 hours ago, Horton said:

Surratt had the talent of hiring coaches. 
His staff starting from the junior high to high school started teaching kids how to play disciplined football, how to lift weights, film study, pride of the C an how to play a very physical type of football. He said his self, Carthage had good athletes but were not physical. 
By the time you get to the junior varsity, you are playing hard nose physical football. Every little kid in Carthage wants to be a Carthage Dawg. 
No matter if they have to wait until they are seniors for a starting position. 
If you look back at every state championship team, see how many played FBS football (major DI college ball) you won’t find but a small number. 
You will find a whole bunch they landed at smaller colleges. The point is the coaching staff developed those kids and made them the best they could be. 
Carthage has had some of the best high school quarterbacks in Texas but only two played DI football Boggie went to USAT and one is at Tulane now. It is all about the program at Carthage. 
Surratt, Preston, and all the other coaches beat with one heart beat and by the time the players get to the varsity, they have the same heart beat. 

I have no doubt in anything you've typed here.  Do you honestly think that's unique to Carthage? Considering the number of coaches that travel the state over emulating exactly what all successful coaches do in order to bring to their program.. And considering the coaches that may have left Carthage after seeing what success looks like..  I know you don't believe that Carthage is the only school with great coaches down to JH, focuses on small details, and has that type of pride within the young kids in town.  Surely you don't think that.

[WOSdrummer99]

3 hours ago, oldschool2 said:

So 31% of Texas high school football coaches are elite coaches?  That seems high...

No sir. Only 31% of the coaches that have won a title. My estimate is about 15,000 coaches have tried and failed to win one. There are approximately 1200 coaches currently active. And 17 of those have proven to be elite... 1.4%

S Surratt - Carthage

G Joseph - Katy

J Herring - Refugio 

J Kay - GP North Shore 

R Allen - Highland Park 

T Westerberg - Salado

C Koetting - Canadian

H Carter -  Lake Travis

J Kasowski - Bremond 

K Hoffman - Mart

R Rhoades - Cameron 

S Harrell - Ennis

D Boedeker - Shiner

J Gibson - Pleasant Grove

J Todd - South Oak Cliff

M Fannin - Franklin 

W Keeling - Tatum 

[Reagan]

22 hours ago, Bigdog said:

Football is a team game, there are multiple factors in winning.  Especially winning a SC.  The coach is only one of the factors and another is a little bit of luck as far as bracket and timing.

Why is it, then, that only certain coaches have these multiple factors and this luck and timing?  With these coaches at Aledo and Carthage, how many Titles have they won?  I can maybe understanding 1 or 2 years of luck but these guys doing it for this long?!   The ones I really feel sorry for are the coaches that came before them.  ESPECIALLY the ones that actually preceded them taking over.  If they would have just stayed a few more years then they could have had all this luck.  Is this what you are sorta telling us?

BTW, I had ask if there was any difference between the Nederland coach and the Carthage or Aledo coach.  You didn't comment.  Or did you actually answer by insinuating that the only difference between them is multiple factors and timing?  Curious what your thoughts are?! 

[Hagar]

The Vidor HC in football years 63-64, who’s name eludes me right now, was imo an elite HC.  Vidor went 0-10 in ‘62, 6-4 in ‘63, and loss via penetrations in the States Semi-Finals in ‘64.  He retired after that year because of health reasons as I remember.  No tradition to rely on.  No reason that’s apparent, just a great Coach & a great group of kids.

[WOSdrummer99]

16 minutes ago, Hagar said:

The Vidor HC in football years 63-64, who’s name eludes me right now, was imo an elite HC.  Vidor went 0-10 in ‘62, 6-4 in ‘63, and loss via penetrations in the States Semi-Finals in ‘64.  He retired after that year because of health reasons as I remember.  No tradition to rely on.  No reason that’s apparent, just a great Coach & a great group of kids.

Edgar Payne

[Hagar]

2 minutes ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

Edgar Payne

Great!  Thanks.  A rare, rare find.

[Reagan]

57 minutes ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

Edgar Payne

In the history of Vidor, they have only won 2 out-right District Championships.  One was with Edgar Payne and the other one was with Phillip Brown.  So, according to some who say it's not the coach, the "blame the kids" cabal would want you to actually think that championship-type kids only showed up during these two coach's DC's and then left after that.  I know, I know, it boggles the mind!    

[Bigdog]

2 hours ago, Reagan said:

Why is it, then, that only certain coaches have these multiple factors and this luck and timing?  With these coaches at Aledo and Carthage, how many Titles have they won?  I can maybe understanding 1 or 2 years of luck but these guys doing it for this long?!   The ones I really feel sorry for are the coaches that came before them.  ESPECIALLY the ones that actually preceded them taking over.  If they would have just stayed a few more years then they could have had all this luck.  Is this what you are sorta telling us?

BTW, I had ask if there was any difference between the Nederland coach and the Carthage or Aledo coach.  You didn't comment.  Or did you actually answer by insinuating that the only difference between them is multiple factors and timing?  Curious what your thoughts are?! 

They are in a growing area with a big influx of people.  Also, winning is bringing transfers.    If jobs pickup in this area, you will see more move ins.

[AledoAlumni]

6 hours ago, Reagan said:

Why is it, then, that only certain coaches have these multiple factors and this luck and timing?  With these coaches at Aledo and Carthage, how many Titles have they won?  I can maybe understanding 1 or 2 years of luck but these guys doing it for this long?!   The ones I really feel sorry for are the coaches that came before them.  ESPECIALLY the ones that actually preceded them taking over.  If they would have just stayed a few more years then they could have had all this luck.  Is this what you are sorta telling us?

Idk about Carthage but just from my experience with Aledo, I agree with bigdog part of it is luck. Staying healthy, being in Region 1, good teams have a down year (Denton Ryan), a couple of plays go your way (Longview). Having said all that Aledo has a great coaching staff, kids that work extremely hard, parents that allow their kids to be coached hard, community support, excellent culture of competition, families that move in to the Fort Worth area but decide to put their kid in Aledo, great athletic facilities, a history of making deep playoff runs, and expectation. 

 

 

[purpleeagle]

9 hours ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

No sir. Only 31% of the coaches that have won a title. My estimate is about 15,000 coaches have tried and failed to win one. There are approximately 1200 coaches currently active. And 17 of those have proven to be elite... 1.4%

S Surratt - Carthage

G Joseph - Katy

J Herring - Refugio 

J Kay - GP North Shore 

R Allen - Highland Park 

T Westerberg - Salado

C Koetting - Canadian

H Carter -  Lake Travis

J Kasowski - Bremond 

K Hoffman - Mart

R Rhoades - Cameron 

S Harrell - Ennis

D Boedeker - Shiner

J Gibson - Pleasant Grove

J Todd - South Oak Cliff

M Fannin - Franklin 

W Keeling - Tatum 

How about Alveres 

[WOSdrummer99]

7 minutes ago, purpleeagle said:

How about Alveres 

Did he win 2?

[Reagan]

4 hours ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

Did he win 2?

No, just 1 State Title.  But he did when that 1 at Ennis in 4 years!  

[oldschool2]

8 hours ago, Reagan said:

No, just 1 State Title.  But he did when that 1 at Ennis in 4 years!  

Sam Harrell is a friend of mine.. and arguably one of the most inspiring comeback stories in all of sports... and Alvarez took over a job with a recent history of success at that time. 

[WOSdrummer99]

9 hours ago, Reagan said:

No, just 1 State Title.  But he did when that 1 at Ennis in 4 years!  

I knew the answer. But that only makes him eligible to be on the list if he can win a 2nd. 

Here's the list of active coaches (current job) that won their 1st title within 7 years at a school.

J Bomar - Groesbeck

S Ponder - Mt Enterprise

J Thompson -  Dawson

T Sitton - Rusk

T Ward - Tenaha

J Willis -  Tyler Legacy

J Alvarez -  Marshall

C Abseck - Barbers Hill

R Tullos - Bryan

C Worrell - El Campo

S Huff - Decatur

D Hyde - La Vega

T Reeve - New Caney

B Butler - Alvin Shadow Creek

R Ebner - Grandview

D Henigan - Denton Ryan

B Gotte - Pearland

S Doty - Stephenville

M Lovorn - Stratford

T Beatty - China Spring

C Mathis - DeSoto

[Reagan]

1 hour ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

I knew the answer. But that only makes him eligible to be on the list if he can win a 2nd. 

Here's the list of active coaches (current job) that won their 1st title within 7 years at a school.

J Bomar - Groesbeck

S Ponder - Mt Enterprise

J Thompson -  Dawson

T Sitton - Rusk

T Ward - Tenaha

J Willis -  Tyler Legacy

J Alvarez -  Marshall

C Abseck - Barbers Hill

R Tullos - Bryan

C Worrell - El Campo

S Huff - Decatur

D Hyde - La Vega

T Reeve - New Caney

B Butler - Alvin Shadow Creek

R Ebner - Grandview

D Henigan - Denton Ryan

B Gotte - Pearland

S Doty - Stephenville

M Lovorn - Stratford

T Beatty - China Spring

C Mathis - DeSoto

I figured you knew the answer.  The response was for those that needed the education on this.  

[Reagan]

I was looking at different coaches and came across two of them:  One was at a school for "42" years and the other was at a school for "39".  No State Titles for either.  Now, to me, there's something wrong if in 42 and 39 years you can't at least win 1!  

[Horton]

On 2/9/2023 at 10:21 AM, WOSdrummer99 said:

I knew the answer. But that only makes him eligible to be on the list if he can win a 2nd. 

Here's the list of active coaches (current job) that won their 1st title within 7 years at a school.

J Bomar - Groesbeck

S Ponder - Mt Enterprise

J Thompson -  Dawson

T Sitton - Rusk

T Ward - Tenaha

J Willis -  Tyler Legacy

J Alvarez -  Marshall

C Abseck - Barbers Hill

R Tullos - Bryan

C Worrell - El Campo

S Huff - Decatur

D Hyde - La Vega

T Reeve - New Caney

B Butler - Alvin Shadow Creek

R Ebner - Grandview

D Henigan - Denton Ryan

B Gotte - Pearland

S Doty - Stephenville

M Lovorn - Stratford

T Beatty - China Spring

C Mathis - DeSoto

You left off Surratt, at Carthage, he won the first title in his second year. 

[WOSdrummer99]

3 hours ago, Horton said:

You left off Surratt, at Carthage, he won the first title in his second year. 

Yes I see that now. Although he's at the top of the other list of current coaches with multiple titles.

[Mr. Thornton Melon]

On 2/7/2023 at 3:46 PM, Hagar said:

One aspect that gets little attention, but explains somewhat the success of first year Coaches is tradition.  A school with a winning tradition (imo) has a definite edge over one without.  PNG & Nederland are two examples, although Ned has fallen off recently.  But when PNG takes the field, with the stands full of purple and the band blaring out Cherokee, they have that edge.  And if for instance they’re playing Vidor, and it’s one of those rare times Vidor should win, they more often than not will lose because of that tradition.  Call it “never give up”, or whatever, but a great tradition goes a long way.  Jmo

Maybe sometimes schools with bad traditions settle for losing coaches or schools settle for losing coaches and that starts bad traditions.  Like Vidor

[purpleeagle]

On 2/8/2023 at 2:08 PM, Hagar said:

Great!  Thanks.  A rare, rare find.

No longer active but Roy Harper won two state titles at Burkeville. He did this when there were very few black coaches. I think he was inducted in the black coaches hall of fame. 

[oldschool2]

7 hours ago, Mr. Thornton Melon said:

Maybe sometimes schools with bad traditions settle for losing coaches or schools settle for losing coaches and that starts bad traditions.  Like Vidor

I think that people are assuming that any school just has the ability/budget to hire whoever they want.  Just how big do you think the applicants list is at schools with bad traditions?  It's not a coincidence that you don't see the Surratts of the coaching world applying to coach at schools that don't have a tradition of winning... and schools can only hire a person that's applied.