Local Murders

[bullets13]

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[bullets13]

Busy week.  None of these are “typical murders” for our area.

 A 74 year old killer, a woman strangled and dumped, and another killed and most likely drug into the lake behind her house.

[bullets13]

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[bullets13]

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[bullets13]

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from the article it looks like it may have been self-defense 

[5GallonBucket]

1 hour ago, bullets13 said:

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from the article it looks like it may have been self-defense 

May wanna not put this under local murders

[SmashMouth]

13 hours ago, bullets13 said:

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from the article it looks like it may have been self-defense 

That's how they're treating it for now. Seems to be pretty straightforward.

[tvc184]

13 hours ago, bullets13 said:

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from the article it looks like it may have been self-defense 

The law is almost certainly on the side of the person claiming self defense. If evidence is admitted to the jury at trial that it was  defense, the burden then falls to the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was not self defense. A person doesn’t have to prove self defense in that case, the state has to prove that it wasn’t.

 For the what if scenario though….

 The information that seems to be at this moment that a couple of guys were arguing and one pulled a gun and shot the other. A bystander, son of the person shot, then pulled out a gun and shot the guy who had just shot his father. Clear cut?

 What if….. the son and father were the aggressors and both came at the other man. He pulled out a gun in self defense as being outnumbered by two guys threatening and coming at him? Who is using lawful self defense at that moment? If the father son are guilty of threatening and then advancing on the now deceased man, does the son have the right of self defense? By my reading (and filing cases with the DA) is that the son cannot lawfully use self defense. In a way it is the Ahmaud Arbery case. The guy that shot and killed Arbery claimed self-defense because Arbery was attempting to take away his shotgun. Yeah but the man and his son illegally attacked and threatened Arbery with death. Arbery had the right of self defense, not the people illegally threatening him. The claimed self defenders in that case got life without parole. 

We could throw other what ifs such as there was the argument and the father who was shot in the arm, threatened other guy and started reaching into his pocket for a knife. Again the now deceased guy was the one being threatened, possibly with a deadly weapon.

Hopefully there are good witnesses and video and it is clear cut but sometimes things that make you go hmmmmm…. 

 

[tvc184]

8 minutes ago, SmashMouth said:

That's how they're treating it for now. Seems to be pretty straightforward.

How straight forward?

 The police may be treating it as something or it is only spin put out for the media but the police shouldn’t treat it as anything. Let the investigation determine what happened. I was taught forty years ago that all deaths were to be treated as a homicide. I agree with that rationale. 

[SmashMouth]

2 hours ago, tvc184 said:

How straight forward?

 The police may be treating it as something or it is only spin put out for the media but the police shouldn’t treat it as anything. Let the investigation determine what happened. I was taught forty years ago that all deaths were to be treated as a homicide. I agree with that rationale. 

I understand your stance and your practice; however, it is being treated as self-defense according to Chief Danny Sullins, and no arrests have been made. I was driving past right after the police arrived. Crazy scene for Lumberton. 

[LumRaiderFan]

2 hours ago, tvc184 said:

The law is almost certainly on the side of the person claiming self defense. If evidence is admitted to the jury at trial that it was  defense, the burden then falls to the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was not self defense. A person doesn’t have to prove self defense in that case, the state has to prove that it wasn’t.

 For the what if scenario though….

 The information that seems to be at this moment that a couple of guys were arguing and one pulled a gun and shot the other. A bystander, son of the person shot, then pulled out a gun and shot the guy who had just shot his father. Clear cut?

 What if….. the son and father were the aggressors and both came at the other man. He pulled out a gun in self defense as being outnumbered by two guys threatening and coming at him? Who is using lawful self defense at that moment? If the father son are guilty of threatening and then advancing on the now deceased man, does the son have the right of self defense? By my reading (and filing cases with the DA) is that the son cannot lawfully use self defense. In a way it is the Ahmaud Arbery case. The guy that shot and killed Arbery claimed self-defense because Arbery was attempting to take away his shotgun. Yeah but the man and his son illegally attacked and threatened Arbery with death. Arbery had the right of self defense, not the people illegally threatening him. The claimed self defenders in that case got life without parole. 

We could throw other what ifs such as there was the argument and the father who was shot in the arm, threatened other guy and started reaching into his pocket for a knife. Again the now deceased guy was the one being threatened, possibly with a deadly weapon.

Hopefully there are good witnesses and video and it is clear cut but sometimes things that make you go hmmmmm…. 

 

I would hope there is plenty of video from several angles given the the location, but you never know.

[tvc184]

22 minutes ago, SmashMouth said:

I understand your stance and your practice; however, it is being treated as self-defense according to Chief Danny Sullins, and no arrests have been made. I was driving past right after the police arrived. Crazy scene for Lumberton. 

That’s why I said spin put out for the media. Maybe it’s a poor choice of words. 

I would hope that the police never start looking at a murder as if they knew the conclusion before they start.

After they get into it and determine what happened? Sure.

Treating it as (if those were the words used) and appears that it may be are completely different.

I have heard a local police chief say after a police involved shooting something to the effect, it appears at this time that our officer was forced to defend himself from a life threatening attack. If the same chief had said immediately after a police shooting, we are treating this like a lawful self defense, how would the people look at that? The police are going into it with a conclusion already made.

 That was my only point. If he had witnesses at the scene that made it fairly certain that it was self defense, in my opinion the chief should have said that instead of dancing around the question. 

[SmashMouth]

11 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

That’s why I said spin put out for the media. Maybe it’s a poor choice of words. 

I would hope that the police never start looking at a murder as if they knew the conclusion before they start.

After they get into it and determine what happened? Sure.

Treating it as (if those were the words used) and appears that it may be are completely different.

I have heard a local police chief say after a police involved shooting something to the effect, it appears at this time that our officer was forced to defend himself from a life threatening attack. If the same chief had said immediately after a police shooting, we are treating this like a lawful self defense, how would the people look at that? The police are going into it with a conclusion already made.

 That was my only point. If he had witnesses at the scene that made it fairly certain that it was self defense, in my opinion the chief should have said that instead of dancing around the question. 

All valid and true points. But from the layperson's perspective, I'm gonna say it's pretty straight forward self defense. Lol.

[bullets13]

30 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

That’s why I said spin put out for the media. Maybe it’s a poor choice of words. 

I would hope that the police never start looking at a murder as if they knew the conclusion before they start.

After they get into it and determine what happened? Sure.

Treating it as (if those were the words used) and appears that it may be are completely different.

I have heard a local police chief say after a police involved shooting something to the effect, it appears at this time that our officer was forced to defend himself from a life threatening attack. If the same chief had said immediately after a police shooting, we are treating this like a lawful self defense, how would the people look at that? The police are going into it with a conclusion already made.

 That was my only point. If he had witnesses at the scene that made it fairly certain that it was self defense, in my opinion the chief should have said that instead of dancing around the question. 

Chief Sullins says Waylon Mark Palmore, 51, of Kirbyville, died outside the Papa Johns in the Madison Plaza shopping center on Main Street in Lumberton. No charges were filed against the son and he cooperated with investigators.

"It's pretty much cut and dried," Sullins told us. "It's a son protecting his dad."

[bullets13]

He says Palmore was picking up an order at about 7:45 p.m. According to workers at Papa Johns, he was mad at the staff for some reason. They described him as 'possibly intoxicated.' Sullins says after Palmore walked out the door, he threw a pizza box toward the father, who was preparing to walk inside to order a pizza. The father asked Palmore what he was doing. According to witnesses, Palmore pulled out a nine millimeter pistol from his pocket and pointed it at the father. Sullins says the son was getting out of the passenger side of the truck, saw Palmore pull the gun and point it at the father, and pulled out his handgun from a holster and fired four to six shots at Palmore. Palmore was struck in the head and died at the scene, in front of the father's pickup truck. Sullins says it appears Palmore didn't fire any shots.

[LumRaiderFan]

16 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

He says Palmore was picking up an order at about 7:45 p.m. According to workers at Papa Johns, he was mad at the staff for some reason. They described him as 'possibly intoxicated.' Sullins says after Palmore walked out the door, he threw a pizza box toward the father, who was preparing to walk inside to order a pizza. The father asked Palmore what he was doing. According to witnesses, Palmore pulled out a nine millimeter pistol from his pocket and pointed it at the father. Sullins says the son was getting out of the passenger side of the truck, saw Palmore pull the gun and point it at the father, and pulled out his handgun from a holster and fired four to six shots at Palmore. Palmore was struck in the head and died at the scene, in front of the father's pickup truck. Sullins says it appears Palmore didn't fire any shots.

In addition:

The father was hit by a bullet that police believe may have ricocheted and struck the dad in his wrist. A 22-year-old man who works as a nurse at Texas Children's Hospital in Houston was eating at the Kotoyama restaurant in the same strip shopping center. He heard the shots and ran over to see if he could help. He saw that Palmore was dead and the father was bleeding from his wrist. The man applied a tourniquet and helped the father until Lumberton Fire and other first responders arrived. The father had surgery on his wrist Wednesday night and another operation Thursday morning. He should be fine, according to the chief.

He says the man's son lives in Midland and was in town on an oil-related job. The father decided to pick up a pizza with his son for dinner. That's why they were at the Papa Johns. Palmore had parked his minivan about 15 feet or so to the right of the pickup truck.

District Attorney Rebecca Walton was on scene. Justice of the Peace Melissa Minton ordered an autopsy.

Chief Sullins says the son and Palmore were both legally carrying weapons. Sullins has a message for anyone who pulls out a gun, other than to defend themselves or hunt.

[tvc184]

1 hour ago, bullets13 said:

Chief Sullins says Waylon Mark Palmore, 51, of Kirbyville, died outside the Papa Johns in the Madison Plaza shopping center on Main Street in Lumberton. No charges were filed against the son and he cooperated with investigators.

"It's pretty much cut and dried," Sullins told us. "It's a son protecting his dad."

I have read that now but watching some of it relatively live it isn’t what was said.

I have seen police chiefs, including my own, make improper, incorrect, misleading and on one case an outright false statement about the law. They aren’t always the smartest guy in the room.

 Even better is when you witness an attorney giving illegal information to a client in front of you and you feel compelled to tell the client that the attorney is wrong. 😎

[thetragichippy]

20 hours ago, bullets13 said:

He says Palmore was picking up an order at about 7:45 p.m. According to workers at Papa Johns, he was mad at the staff for some reason. They described him as 'possibly intoxicated.' Sullins says after Palmore walked out the door, he threw a pizza box toward the father, who was preparing to walk inside to order a pizza. The father asked Palmore what he was doing. According to witnesses, Palmore pulled out a nine millimeter pistol from his pocket and pointed it at the father. Sullins says the son was getting out of the passenger side of the truck, saw Palmore pull the gun and point it at the father, and pulled out his handgun from a holster and fired four to six shots at Palmore. Palmore was struck in the head and died at the scene, in front of the father's pickup truck. Sullins says it appears Palmore didn't fire any shots.

This backs up my Fathers statement that I heard MANY MANY times when he taught me about guns - "Don't ever point a gun at someone unless you plan on shooting them" - That dude may have not intended on shooting him, could of been just to intimidate him......the Son had no way of knowing......

[bullets13]

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[bullets13]

will be curious to hear the details on this one.

[tvc184]

Manslaughter, as in the suspect accidentally killed another person?

It could be but it seems (with virtually no public information) that this is likely more than an accident. Of course he could have been deer hunting or target practicing and accidentally killed a person.

 Then it could be that the police think it might be Murder but didn’t have enough probable cause at the time of the arrest. 

[tvc184]

5 hours ago, bullets13 said:

will be curious to hear the details on this one.

Yeah……. !!!

[bullets13]

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senseless.  Two men robbed a store on gulf st and shot and killed the clerk.  They had masks on, but enough of their faces were showing I bet they’re caught quickly