What not to do when the police knock?

[tvc184]

A horrible deal but…

The police are sent on an always dangerous domestic dispute call. The officers knock on the door and announce themselves as the police. Getting no response, they repeat the process.

Again with no response, they ask the dispatcher to confirm the address and also to call the homeowner and have one step outside.

The homeowner finally opens the door with a gun in hand and is shot and killed by the police,

 They were at the wrong address.

How many of the people reading this forum, hear a knock on the door and throw the door open with gun in hand? 

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[WOSdrummer99]

5 hours ago, tvc184 said:

horrible

You said it. Why? How? With GPS technology we have today. And patrol vehicles with more computers than my elementary school. This should never happen.

[tvc184]

2 minutes ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

You said it. Why? How? With GPS technology we have today. And patrol vehicles with more computers than my elementary school. This should never happen.

Houses aren’t identified on GPS while responding to calls.

A single digit typo by a dispatcher will completely change the location.

[WOSdrummer99]

3 hours ago, tvc184 said:

Houses aren’t identified on GPS while responding to calls.

A single digit typo by a dispatcher will completely change the location.

Why not?!?!?!

We have this thing known as Caller ID that came out about 25 years ago. And GPS location tracking when a cell calls 911. And with the all the databases that police have access to. There is no legitimate reason for knocking on, or kicking in, the wrong door. 

Typos costing people's lives. I hope that dispatcher is terminated. The officers single digit made another error too. Will they have to answer for their actions?

According to "Billy Mack down in Texas", probably not in this world.

[tvc184]

45 minutes ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

Why not?!?!?!

We have this thing known as Caller ID that came out about 25 years ago. And GPS location tracking when a cell calls 911. And with the all the databases that police have access to. There is no legitimate reason for knocking on, or kicking in, the wrong door. 

Typos costing people's lives. I hope that dispatcher is terminated. The officers single digit made another error too. Will they have to answer for their actions?

According to "Billy Mack down in Texas", probably not in this world.

I am saying that the GPS doesn’t show the exact house or location in the map program. 

GPS can ping the nearest tower from a cell phone which is probably 98% of calls.  I have seen many times a person call 911 but can’t give an exact location and the tower might show the call coming from about a five square block area. 

 The officers didn’t kick a door, they knocked. If someone knocks on your door, do you open the door without looking outside with a gun in hand? What if the officer was just on patrol and saw an interior light on inside the homeowner’s car and wanted to have the person come out and see if the car had been broken into. I have done that on several occasions. I would hate to think if the homeowner opened the door with a pistol in his hand pointing toward me.

 

[tvc184]

56 minutes ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

Why not?!?!?!

We have this thing known as Caller ID that came out about 25 years ago. And GPS location tracking when a cell calls 911. And with the all the databases that police have access to. There is no legitimate reason for knocking on, or kicking in, the wrong door. 

Typos costing people's lives. I hope that dispatcher is terminated. The officers single digit made another error too. Will they have to answer for their actions?

According to "Billy Mack down in Texas", probably not in this world.

Fire someone for a typo?

 What if the caller gave the wrong address? What if he said “next door to” which is common?

Why does it matter why the police knocked on a guy’s door?

It kind of adds an interesting take when people complain about no knock warrants. With a warrant, giving legal authority to force entry, people say knock and let them know who you are. That will stop any accidents from happening. In this case the police knocked, announced that it was the police. After waiting, they knocked again.

Who knows what will happen in NM under their law but I questioned the wisdom of someone knocking on my door and me opening the door with a gun in my hand. On me? Hidden but peaking out instead of simply opening the door? Maybe but not what this guy appears to have done.

[WOSdrummer99]

A man lost his life due to a mix up. They went to 05 instead of 08. Yes someone should be held accountable.

I'm 1000 miles away, don't even know the guy. Yet it still angers me to see this continue. Senseless is word I hear too much to describe these incidents. 

Where's the body cam that was released?

[tvc184]

1 hour ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

A man lost his life due to a mix up. They went to 05 instead of 08. Yes someone should be held accountable.

I'm 1000 miles away, don't even know the guy. Yet it still angers me to see this continue. Senseless is word I hear too much to describe these incidents. 

Where's the body cam that was released?

I can’t imagine being prosecuted for knocking on the wrong door.

Remember that the officers were lawfully at the same location.

[Separation Scientist]

7 hours ago, tvc184 said:

I can’t imagine being prosecuted for knocking on the wrong door. 

They absolutely should NOT be prosecuted for just knocking on the wrong door.

They should be prosecuted for taking an innocent mans life, and trying to kill his wife before taking enough due diligence to make 100% sure they are confronting the right person at the right address before shooting to kill. Clearly there was doubt already in the air. Retreating until everything is 100% confirmed would have been the prudent course of action, and prevented this very preventable tragedy.

Do you think simply issuing a public apology while a grieving widow and horrified kids try to go on without a Dad is all that should be done? 

[tvc184]

16 minutes ago, Separation Scientist said:

They absolutely should NOT be prosecuted for just knocking on the wrong door.

They should be prosecuted for taking an innocent mans life, and trying to kill his wife before taking enough due diligence to make 100% sure they are confronting the right person at the right address before shooting to kill. Clearly there was doubt already in the air. Retreating until everything is 100% confirmed would have been the prudent course of action, and prevented this very preventable tragedy.

Do you think simply issuing a public apology while a grieving widow and horrified kids try to go on without a Dad is all that should be done? 

Grieving and apologies have nothing to do with the law.

No matter what happened or happens in the future. takes away from the tragedy.

It appears that the innocent man pointed a handgun at officers.

His wife then came out and appears to have fired shots at officers.

You can’t retreat by backing up faster than a bullet.

I would not be shocked with criminal charges but I would also but not be shocked with no charges filed. 

[tvc184]

This is a body cam from a different officer with the chief narrating the slow motion video in a press conference. It appears that the homeowner shoved the door open with one hand and then both hands come together in a two handed firing position and pointed it at officers. If you want to see the explanation and video it starts at about the 3 minute mark. All 3 police body cams are not shown but the chief said on one camera an officer said that he heard a gun rack and officers started backing away. The man then stepped out and brought the gun up into a firing position. 
 

 

 

[LumRaiderFan]

35 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

This is a body cam from a different officer with the chief narrating the slow motion video in a press conference. It appears that the homeowner shoved the door open with one hand and then both hands come together in a two handed firing position and pointed it at officers. If you want to see the explanation and video it starts at about the 3 minute mark. All 3 police body cams are not shown but the chief said on one camera an officer said that he heard a gun rack and officers started backing away. The man then stepped out and brought the gun up into a firing position. 
 

 

 

Doesn’t look like he gave them any other option.

[bullets13]

Bad situation, but I don’t see how the officers can be charged here.  Wrong house and they shoot a guy with his hands up?  Yeah, of course.  Break down the wrong door and get shot at by someone who thinks they’re breaking in?  Sure. But the victim here did not act in a sane, reasonable way, and it led to his being tragically but justifiably shot IMO.  being at the wrong door shouldn’t mean an officer has to get shot when someone comes out pointing a gun in their face.  I live off the main road a ways, and when someone knocks at night I answer with a gun if I don’t know who it is.  That said, I don’t bust out the front door and jump into a shooting stance pointing it at whoever is there without knowing who it is.  It could be the police, it could be someone at the wrong house, or it could be a 12-year-old looking for their dog.  All of those have happened out here, but I’ve yet to have a robber knock on my front door.  When the police knocked at night I looked out the window and saw the patrol unit and put the pistol in a drawer before I answered the door.  All this guy had to do was crack the door and look outside, or just looked through the window right next to the door.  The porch light was on, and these guys weren’t hiding around the corner.  

[Separation Scientist]

12 hours ago, tvc184 said:

Grieving and apologies have nothing to do with the law.

No matter what happened or happens in the future. takes away from the tragedy.

It appears that the innocent man pointed a handgun at officers.

His wife then came out and appears to have fired shots at officers.

You can’t retreat by backing up faster than a bullet.

I would not be shocked with criminal charges but I would also but not be shocked with no charges filed. 

Thats not what I implied. Retreating, or a better word would be just to completely back off, until verification takes place. They did not. I don't care who is wearing the badge, that don't make you God. This was DOTSONS property, not the cops. The cops moved on him, on HIS property, not the other way around. Unless Dotson actually fired first, there is no excuse. There has to be restraint. 

Here is another recent "event" by the same FPD:

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They blew away a 25 year old in his car, and the cheif later admitted he "could have been reaching to unbuckle his seat belt" as the cops were screaming and forcing him to. All over a stupid license plate. 

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Finally, are you really suggesting no apology for the reamining Dotsons? Seriously? What would you tell them? Just "tough luck" or something?     

 

[Separation Scientist]

16 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

Bad situation, but I don’t see how the officers can be charged here.  Wrong house and they shoot a guy with his hands up?  Yeah, of course.  Break down the wrong door and get shot at by someone who thinks they’re breaking in?  Sure. But the victim here did not act in a sane, reasonable way, and it led to his being tragically but justifiably shot IMO.  being at the wrong door shouldn’t mean an officer has to get shot when someone comes out pointing a gun in their face.  I live off the main road a ways, and when someone knocks at night I answer with a gun if I don’t know who it is.  That said, I don’t bust out the front door and jump into a shooting stance pointing it at whoever is there without knowing who it is.  It could be the police, it could be someone at the wrong house, or it could be a 12-year-old looking for their dog.  All of those have happened out here, but I’ve yet to have a robber knock on my front door.  When the police knocked at night I looked out the window and saw the patrol unit and put the pistol in a drawer before I answered the door.  All this guy had to do was crack the door and look outside, or just looked through the window right next to the door.  The porch light was on, and these guys weren’t hiding around the corner.  

The homeowner was terrified, and protecting his family. He did NOT shoot the cops. THEY made the mistake, THEY were the agressors, THEY killed him, on his property.  

It all sounds like laywer talk, shift blame to the dead guy. Put him on trial, after all, he can't speak for himself anymore, can he?   

[tvc184]

44 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

Bad situation, but I don’t see how the officers can be charged here.  Wrong house and they shoot a guy with his hands up?  Yeah, of course.  Break down the wrong door and get shot at by someone who thinks they’re breaking in?  Sure. But the victim here did not act in a sane, reasonable way, and it led to his being tragically but justifiably shot IMO.  being at the wrong door shouldn’t mean an officer has to get shot when someone comes out pointing a gun in their face.  I live off the main road a ways, and when someone knocks at night I answer with a gun if I don’t know who it is.  That said, I don’t bust out the front door and jump into a shooting stance pointing it at whoever is there without knowing who it is.  It could be the police, it could be someone at the wrong house, or it could be a 12-year-old looking for their dog.  All of those have happened out here, but I’ve yet to have a robber knock on my front door.  When the police knocked at night I looked out the window and saw the patrol unit and put the pistol in a drawer before I answered the door.  All this guy had to do was crack the door and look outside, or just looked through the window right next to the door.  The porch light was on, and these guys weren’t hiding around the corner.  

Certainly.

For whatever reason, the homeowner chose to point a gun a someone without any justification. We will never know what he thought. Intoxicated? Kids knocking on his door at night and he wanted to scare them? 

Who knows but it appears that he made a poor and probably criminal decision. 

[tvc184]

38 minutes ago, Separation Scientist said:

Thats not what I implied. Retreating, or a better word would be just to completely back off, until verification takes place. They did not. I don't care who is wearing the badge, that don't make you God. This was DOTSONS property, not the cops. The cops moved on him, on HIS property, not the other way around. Unless Dotson actually fired first, there is no excuse. There has to be restraint. 

Here is another recent "event" by the same FPD:

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They blew away a 25 year old in his car, and the cheif later admitted he "could have been reaching to unbuckle his seat belt" as the cops were screaming and forcing him to. All over a stupid license plate. 

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Finally, are you really suggesting no apology for the reamining Dotsons? Seriously? What would you tell them? Just "tough luck" or something?     

 

The fired first is a ridiculous premise. I guess if a robber pulls a knife on you and demands money, you can’t shoot until he tries to stab you? The police have just as much right for self defense as anyone else. Whose property it is on has no bearing.

Did you ignore the video of the guy in a two handed shooting stance pointing at the officers… and for no legal reason whatsoever? What, a person knocked?

Nothing in any comment that I have made has suggested that there be no apology. I clearly said that an apology has nothing to do with the law. 

[Separation Scientist]

22 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

The fired first is a ridiculous premise. I guess if a robber pulls a knife on you and demands money, you can’t shoot until he tries to stab you? The police have just as much right for self defense as anyone else. Whose property it is on has no bearing.

WTH? If I am beating on some other guys door, on HIS property, then I shoot and kill him??? The cops and the Law are going to side with him 99.9999% of the time. You know thats true. 

You still have not answered how the PD should respond to the widow and the greiving children who saw their Dad blown away standing in his own home. 

 

[tvc184]

1 hour ago, Separation Scientist said:

WTH? If I am beating on some other guys door, on HIS property, then I shoot and kill him??? The cops and the Law are going to side with him 99.9999% of the time. You know thats true. 

You still have not answered how the PD should respond to the widow and the greiving children who saw their Dad blown away standing in his own home. 

 

You are talking emotions. I am talking law.

I guess you are saying that if you were knocking on another guy’s door and he came out and threatened you with a gun with no justification and you used self defense? If the self-defense was lawful, which it likely would be in your scenario, whose property has no bearing. You can’t legally threaten to kill someone because they’re on your property. 

Deadly force is unlawful to use to terminate trespassing.  If you shoot and kill a person for trespassing in Texas, you will likely go to jail for murder. Again, I can only go by Texas law. Pointing a gun at someone, even without a threat, is a crime unless there is a legal justification for self defense. Pointing a gun and making a threat is Aggravated Assault.

So what justification do you think a homeowner has that when he hears someone knocking, he can step out and point a gun at the person? 

By the way, the police don’t get to side with anyone or file charges. The district attorney does that. 

The police chief should do what he did. He gave condolences to the family.

I guess under your rationale, if UPS knocked on your door late night, you would be justified in threatening to kill him by pointing a gun while in a shooting stance. I would say you may need a good lawyer on retainer.

[WOSdrummer99]

5 hours ago, Separation Scientist said:

Here is another recent "event" by the same FPD:

Crazy that just happened so recently.

[tvc184]

6 hours ago, Separation Scientist said:

The homeowner was terrified, and protecting his family. He did NOT shoot the cops. THEY made the mistake, THEY were the agressors, THEY killed him, on his property.  

It all sounds like laywer talk, shift blame to the dead guy. Put him on trial, after all, he can't speak for himself anymore, can he?   

If “terrified”, why go outside?

”Aggressor” definition: Knocking on a door. 

[tvc184]

6 hours ago, Separation Scientist said:

Thats not what I implied. Retreating, or a better word would be just to completely back off, until verification takes place. They did not. I don't care who is wearing the badge, that don't make you God. This was DOTSONS property, not the cops. The cops moved on him, on HIS property, not the other way around. Unless Dotson actually fired first, there is no excuse. There has to be restraint. 

Here is another recent "event" by the same FPD:

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They blew away a 25 year old in his car, and the cheif later admitted he "could have been reaching to unbuckle his seat belt" as the cops were screaming and forcing him to. All over a stupid license plate. 

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Finally, are you really suggesting no apology for the reamining Dotsons? Seriously? What would you tell them? Just "tough luck" or something?     

 

The “event” was a guy who was wearing a gun and said the laws don’t apply to me. He reached  for the gun as officers tried to take him out of the car after talking to him for a few minutes.

He apparently got the gun out because the holster he was wearing was empty and the gun was in the driver’s side floorboard. 

 

[bullets13]

19 hours ago, Separation Scientist said:

The homeowner was terrified, and protecting his family. He did NOT shoot the cops. THEY made the mistake, THEY were the agressors, THEY killed him, on his property.  

It all sounds like laywer talk, shift blame to the dead guy. Put him on trial, after all, he can't speak for himself anymore, can he?   

Someone knocked on his door, and instead of just answering it (or not), according to you he was "terrified, and protecting his family." And MY post sounds like "lawyer talk?" But really, there's nothing more terrifying than someone knocking on your door at 11:30.  Any reasonable person would throw the door open and jump out with a gun, aiming at whoever is out there with no clue as to who it is.

[bullets13]

Some people are so blinded by their hatred of police that it robs them of their common sense.  

[bullets13]

So those of you in favor of charging the cops, y'all all agree that this shooting was justified, right?

 

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